Haiti

[Cat]

Frenchie, I don't know if you or your friend have heard this yet, but there was a report on the lunchtime news today saying that children from Haiti in the process of being adopted, and whose paperwork is complete, will be evacuated to France.

http://www.france24.com/fr/20100118-ha-tiadoption-enfants-dossiers-complets-seront-vacu-s

 

 

[Frederick]

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/time/wwi/88275.htm

Seems the USA has taken control of the running of Haiti in the past ...

[Deby]

It was reported on the news that the Hospital tent organised by Medicines Sans Frontiers was not allowed to land in favour of military aircraft!

Also, you could sense some of the frustration from seasoned reporters as to the chaos and lack of coordination.

The Americans couldnt organise themselves post Iraq, let alone now!

[andyh4]

Well I wish some of the sanctimonious posters  here would get up off their rectal orifices and go to Haiti and sort the job out themselves.

 

They clearly have far more logistics; and law and order knowledge than the entire military establishment faced with a population that barely understood those concepts before whatever infrastructure they ever had was destoyed.

 

What Haiti needs now more than ever is help and sniping at those who are trying to give it - no matter how inefficiently - will get them no where.

 

Posted by one who has little repect for America and its foreign policies.

[paw862]

Well said andyh4.

[Deby]

Well I wish some of the sanctimonious posters here would get up off their rectal orifices and go to Haiti and sort the job out themselves...

I can forgive you for calling me sanctimonious. My comments are an observation. Yes, It is quite easy for me sat in my ivory tower to point a finger! We should question what we see dont you think - rather than say nothing and be grateful! I could refer to many examples in history, where refraining from comment made things worse. Ignorance is dangerous. So is being sanctimonius. I take the latter - thank you.

[krusty]

It is so sad to see the people of Haiti , and to think the other half of the Island is the Dominican Republic where tourists will be sunning themselves on the beaches , I was myself in February last year. But life goes on and tourism is probably their main source of income.

 

[andyh4]

[quote user="Deby"]Well I wish some of the sanctimonious posters here would get up off their rectal orifices and go to Haiti and sort the job out themselves... I can forgive you for calling me sanctimonious. My comments are an observation. Yes, It is quite easy for me sat in my ivory tower to point a finger! We should question what we see dont you think - rather than say nothing and be grateful! I could refer to many examples in history, where refraining from comment made things worse. Ignorance is dangerous. So is being sanctimonius. I take the latter - thank you.[/quote]

 

My comments were not directed specifically at you.  There a several posting for a number of people all in the same how can that possibly be vein.

 

I have never come across any natural disaster with even a quarter the number of casualties where people said to the rest of the world:

Hell you got here quickly and joined up all the dots before we knew we had dots.

 

As to your specific about MSF.

What is the point of having the goods on the ground if you cannot distribute them to the people who need tham and if they are going to be looted by desperate people?  That is the reality on the ground. 

 

 

[Quillan]

I don't think that I am the only person who watches the TV footage coming out of Haiti and start to feel very angry. Sure somethings that we thought about it seems can't be done. Many said about getting ships in but it seems the docks are completely wrecked and at the moment it a is 'no go'. What I personally find bad is that all the effort seems to be round Port au Prince when there are thousands living outside the area. Only today has air drops been carried out by the US, something I feel that could have been done earlier. Having warehouses full of 'the wrong' food, it has to be cooked apparently. I am sure something is better than nothing and that people are not so stupid that they can't light a fire and find something to cook the food in, an old tin can for instance, at least its some form of food. This lunchtime we see food being thrown out off the back of lorries and people fighting like rabid dogs to get their hands on it. I don't blame the people I blame those giving out the aid for not being more organised. Of course people are going to loot for food, their starving for Christ sake, its a fight to survive.

If you want to try and help other than send money you can contact any of the organisations here and in the UK and get your name put down to go if your skill sets are needed. My brother-in-law who was going to Chile to build houses is now on his way to Haiti, he is single and a retired fire station officer. I personally have put my name down although because of my heart problems I probably won't be picked but you never know. My wife and I have donated 500 Euros so far and I am helping to organise a 'do' this weekend as part of the Fete Committee in my village to raise some money. If you feel so strongly you can always go round knocking on your friends and neighbours doors asking for cash.

[Deby]

Thank goodness Quillan there are people like you in the world.

I have a long list of excuses not to go and help out personally I'm sad to say.

[andyh4]

[quote user="Quillan"]

. This lunchtime we see food being thrown out off the back of lorries and people fighting like rabid dogs to get their hands on it. I don't blame the people I blame those giving out the aid for not being more organised. [/quote]

 

So let's see:

 

They throw the food out of the back of a lorry - why?

Because they are afraid that if they stop and ask the crowd to form a nice orderly queue they will end up in the middle of the scrum that happened anyway.  Why do they think that?

'Cos yesterday aid workers handing out food were shot at.  Why did that happen?

'Cos there are not enough people in authority to protect them (aka troops).  Why?

Because some poor sod is trying to balance having the troops on the ground with getting stuff out to folk who need it and getting verbal from all sides - which is in fact detractting from him doing what he is supposed to be doing.

 

If you know how to break into this circle please let us all know - I for one would dearly love to know.

I am as frustrated as anyone about the lack of progress, but with ports closed, roads virtually non existent, the flow of goods and people into Haiti is going to be trickle compared with what is needed for some time to come.

 

 

[Quillan]

[quote user="Deby"]Thank goodness Quillan there are people like you in the world. I have a long list of excuses not to go and help out personally I'm sad to say.[/quote]

Theres are load of people who try to help, the unsung heros if you like and my small contribution is nothing compared to what others have given. I doubt I will ever get to go but you do what you can. We just happen to have had an exceptional year last year (with the old B&B), our second best in 9 years so we could afford to give a bit more. If it had happened a couple of years ago it would only have been a tenner. I am looking forward to hearing first hand from my BOI when he gets there about how things are going.

[Quillan]

Sorry Andy but pilots of helicopters and transport aircraft are not troops and doing air drops is less confrontational. But as you say where are the troops especially as they are not there to hand out food, they are there for security. There are currently 7,000 American troops and 2,500 European troops there which is going to increase by another 2,000 American troops and 1,500 European troops in the next 24/48 hours (source AP in the last hour). America will not be taking any refugees as Raymond Joseph the Haitian ambassador to the US was told "If you think you will reach the U.S. and all the doors will be wide open to you, that's not at all the case," ..... "And they will intercept you right on the water and send you back home where you came from.".

[andyh4]

How about we make peace and have a deal:

 

If you don't preach to me about logistics, I won't tell you how to run a B&B.

 

I have already explained why airdrops will not be a good solution for much of the country, as for helicopers, read the following which I think gives some idea of the picture:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8460787.stm

The penultimate sentence is probably the telling one:

If the helicopters are ferrying victims to neighbouring countries, then they are not available for food aid.

 

In medical terms I believe this is called triage.

 

[Quillan]

I think this BBC link describes better what I am trying to explain.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8468595.stm

Medical triage is deciding which people get treated first its nothing to do with a choice of getting help to rural areas against taking people to hospitals in another country. Perhaps if the people in charge of the airport had not turned away an aircraft carrying a field hospital on Friday and another carrying medical supplies on Sunday they could have got help to the rural areas quicker.

I don't mind anyone telling me how to run my B&B, I am always open to suggestions. [;-)]

But your right lets not argue, actions are better and more helpful. [:D]

[Dog]

BBC R4 23.00 hrs talking about it being an American invasion.

They are letting things fester to show the big stick.

[andyh4]

[quote user="Quillan"]

Medical triage is deciding which people get treated first

 

[/quote]

 

Which is in fact about setting the priorities against limted resources - hence my reference to it.

[andyh4]

[quote user="Quillan"]

Medical triage is deciding which people get treated first

 

[/quote]

 

Which is in fact about setting the priorities against limted resources - hence my reference to it.

[DerekJ]

I have no doubt that the challenges in providing aid, support and help to the victims of this earthquake are considerable.  But here we are in what I think is the 9th day and I've just watched the BBC News. It still appears that little real aid is getting through to these people. Whilst I realise that selective reporting can paint any picture you like I now have the strong feeling that this aid mission is significantly failing.

[Judith]

Some aid IS getting to where it should be: this was dated 19th Jan:

UPDATE FROM SHELTERBOX [via Rotary in the UK]

News just received from ShelterBox is that the first consignment arrived in Port au Prince yesterday and that hundreds more are due to arrive later today.  Some are to be used for an emergency field hospital at the airport.  The team on the ground report that they are working with other agencies to ensure that ShelterBoxes are distributed speedily and efficiently.  Back in UK they are busy packing more boxes ready for despatch via Miami.

[Quillan]

I saw on the news last night that a lot of charities have given up with the Americans and have taken matters in to their own hands with regards to distributing aid. The also said that 5 French aircraft with aid and field hospitals have been turned away since last Friday (there is something in the French press about this also). It makes you wonder if there is not some form of politics involved here.

By the way has anyone told the Americans there's no oil there, whatever you do don't as they will probably pull out.

[Âme]

Part of last night's Envoyé Spécial followed a team of pompiers from France digging for survivors, SAMU from Martinique evacuating very seriously injured people by plane and also, the orphans...

My fingers are crossed for your friend, Frenchie.  If I understood the French ambassador correctly, orphans who have passports and whose adoption papers are already complete will be flown to France.

[andyh4]

I understand the frustration Derek and if you by any chance saw the American ambassardor to the UK on the news this morning he did (IMHO) a very bad job of explaining the real issues.

 

I will try and explain on the basis of being in logistics - but not someone on the ground - so there are some guesses.

 

Prior to the disaster, infrastructure in Haiti was very weak and inbound and outbound goods relied largely on the port, with the possibility of some goods going to San Domingo over a difficult - and in part - mountainous road.  The airport had 3 flights per day.  As an impoverished nation there would not have been a need for massive levels of imports, so the meagre level of resource would have been adequate.

 

Now along comes the earthquake - much infrastructure destroyed within the city making moving anything within the city a challenge.

Thankfully the airport is still open and operational, although an aftershock destroys the control tower.  Also the road is still operable.  The main problem is the port - badly damaged quays, and the one and only container crane is now sitting in the sea at an angle.  The port is essentially inoperable.

 

The road trip takes 18 hours and allowing say 3 hours each for loading and unloading - and assuming you can organise an endless supply of drivers it is a two day turn around.  Road is going to help, but it is never going to be a solution to getting all of the emergency goods needed.  The road is also clogged with refugees.

 

So to the airport, which has caused much emotion with relief planes turned away.

Some educated guesswork on my part - 3 flights a day = no radar and no night landings (runway lights etc.)  In any case even if installed probably destroyed when the tower was knocked out.

So first jobs:

assess the situation - how much damage, how many injured, what is operational what not = troops on the ground.

Answer is that it is a major incident (understatement) and virtually no infrastructure.  Only thing "operational" is the airport.

Actions:  Increase number of flights - but now comes the rub, no radar, little infrastructure on the ground.

So (I guess ) install radar - needs generators and fuel to be flown in as well.

Install landing lights: more generators more fuel and a lot of heavy duty cable to be flown in.

Landings and take offs are now not a bottleneck - amassador claims to have increased flights to 150 per day - and no reason to doubt him - my guess up to then was 100 - 130 depending on whether night landings could be organised.

 

BUT

 

 

The airport apron is really quite small (one of the BBC links has an aireal view - the apron is full.  11 aircraft of only medium size aircraft plus a few executive jets/cessna types..  I cannot claim to be an aircraft spotter but I saw nothing that looked like a transport aircraft, only planes that could have been small to medium frighters.  Now the next bottleneck - unloading - so unless you can unload a plane within a couple of hours - probably with little or no mechanical equipment - you effectively shut the runway because there is no where to land or park.

 

Without the disaster you could probably have kept Haiti going with the airport as it is now operating if there was no port, but with the disaster and the need for food, water, medical supplies, equipment etc - and later building materials, there is absolutely no chance.

 

The port is the key (quay - sorry for the pun) and I see that they have managed to repair and open a very small quay yesterday.  What they really need is a container quay and crane - but that is going to be some months away sadly.

 

As in all these things there are priorities having to be set - do you land medical aid first, or a fork lift truck to speed up the off loading of planes which long term means you can handle more flights more quickly, or a radar system and everything else you need to make it operable, or troops to assess the situation, guard deliveries and restore some order, heavy trucks to distribure goods, or lifting equipment.  Tough calls - every one of them.  And note most of the items lifted, all of which are needed, have nothing to do with what we understand as humanitarian aid.

 

What the public pick up is that an aid flight has been denied landing or aid is not getting through - but no explanation why - maybe the airport was full and because of delayed unloading a plane that should have taken off was still on the apron, maybe there was another flight with "more imortant cargo" that took priority.

 

What I do find indefessible - as others have said - is the politicians blocking the only real relief resource with their flights to rubber neck and "show support". 

[Cendrillon]

andyh4

A very sensible posting, thank you.

[Clair]

I can't help wondering if US are trying to make up for (or erase) the New Orleans/Katrina fiasco by deploying such a a large amount of manpower so visibly.