Millbank Fire Extinguisher Sentence.

[pachapapa]

A particularly vindictive sentence handed down at Southwark Crown Court today demonstrating the establishment influence over the Judiciary. The sentence is particularly harsh but not unexpected; it should be remembered that the mother was pertinent in persuading her son to hand himself in; also the length of the sentence being 2 months more than 30 months i.e. 2.5 years means that this 18 year old will carry the criminal record for the rest of his life; on his C.V. and on his job applications. A result obviously consciously and magnanimously savoured by the presiding Judge.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-12159581

[Russethouse]

 Its only by good fortune that this young man isn't being tried for murder or manslaughter  - it was well over and above a student prank and the sentence is possibly designed as a deterrent to others

[Gardian]

[quote user="pachapapa"]

A particularly vindictive sentence handed down at Southwark Crown Court today demonstrating the establishment influence over the Judiciary. The sentence is particularly harsh but not unexpected[/quote]

Let me pose a question to you.

If this had been someone chucking a lump of concrete from a bridge over a railway line, that had hit a train and nearly killed the driver, would the sentence have been harsh?

[Rose]

[quote user="pachapapa"]

it should be remembered that the mother was pertinent in persuading her son to hand himself in

[/quote]

It should also be remembered that footage of him was all over the news; no doubt he would have been identified within hours.

Not only did he drop the extinguisher from the roof, he aimed it in the direction of the police as he threw it.  He is a very lucky man indeed as he could have so easily been facing a murder charge... he should be counting his blessings.  He did the cause no favours and I'm surprised by your comments P.

[pachapapa]

[quote user="Russethouse"] Its only by good fortune that this young man isn't being tried for murder or manslaughter  - it was well over and above a student prank and the sentence is possibly designed as a deterrent to others[/quote]

Whilst as to the "actus reus" for a murder charge could have been clear; the same could not be said for the "mens rea".

[pachapapa]

[quote user="Rose"][quote user="pachapapa"]

it should be remembered that the mother was pertinent in persuading her son to hand himself in

[/quote]

It should also be remembered that footage of him was all over the news; no doubt he would have been identified within hours.

Not only did he drop the extinguisher from the roof, he aimed it in the direction of the police as he threw it.  He is a very lucky man indeed as he could have so easily been facing a murder charge... he should be counting his blessings.  He did the cause no favours and I'm surprised by your comments P.
[/quote]

Obviously your judicial and forensic assessment is much better than that of the presiding judge. I quote.."The judge praised Woollard's mother, Tania Garwood, saying he was taking into account her "extraordinary and courageous conduct" in persuading him to give himself up."

[pachapapa]

[quote user="Gardian"][quote user="pachapapa"]

A particularly vindictive sentence handed down at Southwark Crown Court today demonstrating the establishment influence over the Judiciary. The sentence is particularly harsh but not unexpected[/quote]

Let me pose a question to you.

If this had been someone chucking a lump of concrete from a bridge over a railway line, that had hit a train and nearly killed the driver, would the sentence have been harsh?

[/quote]

The sentence would have been less harsh; breeze blocks are frequently thrown from tower blocks, bridges over train lines and motorways by hooligans with derisory sentences. This case suggests that the establishment exacted an exemplary revenge as a warning to students.

[Rose]

[quote user="pachapapa"][quote user="Rose"][quote user="pachapapa"]

it should be remembered that the mother was pertinent in persuading her son to hand himself in

[/quote]

It should also be remembered that footage of him was all over the news; no doubt he would have been identified within hours.

Not only did he drop the extinguisher from the roof, he aimed it in the direction of the police as he threw it.  He is a very lucky man indeed as he could have so easily been facing a murder charge... he should be counting his blessings.  He did the cause no favours and I'm surprised by your comments P.

[/quote]

Obviously your judicial and forensic assessment is much better than that of the presiding judge. I quote.."The judge praised Woollard's mother, Tania Garwood, saying he was taking into account her "extraordinary and courageous conduct" in persuading him to give himself up."

[/quote]

What forensic assessment do I need?  The judge may have praised his mother - I do to, well done her for doing the right thing... however, Sky news has reported that he was identified by them two hours before he handed himself in... Or are you saying that because he went to the police he should have had a lesser sentence?

[pachapapa]

[quote user="Rose"][quote user="pachapapa"][quote user="Rose"][quote user="pachapapa"]

it should be remembered that the mother was pertinent in persuading her son to hand himself in

[/quote]

It should also be remembered that footage of him was all over the news; no doubt he would have been identified within hours.

Not only did he drop the extinguisher from the roof, he aimed it in the direction of the police as he threw it.  He is a very lucky man indeed as he could have so easily been facing a murder charge... he should be counting his blessings.  He did the cause no favours and I'm surprised by your comments P.
[/quote]

Obviously your judicial and forensic assessment is much better than that of the presiding judge. I quote.."The judge praised Woollard's mother, Tania Garwood, saying he was taking into account her "extraordinary and courageous conduct" in persuading him to give himself up."

[/quote]

What forensic assessment do I need?  The judge may have praised his mother - I do to, well done her for doing the right thing... however, Sky news has reported that he was identified by them two hours before he handed himself in... Or are you saying that because he went to the police he should have had a lesser sentence?
[/quote]

If I had been the judge I would have given the student a sentence of  30 months or 2.5 years on the basis that I would have been satisfied with his contrition etcetera. I would not have given him a sentence of 32 months. I would have given him a sentence 2 months less than he got. Why I believe that young people can make mistakes through a moment of madness and I believe that it is inhumane to make them suffer for the rest of their lives for a regrettable serious error of their youth. Yes I can forgive, even the most heinous crime. But then I am not a bigotted protestant believer. In effect as an 18 year old with a sentence of over 2.5 years he will NEVER EVER extinguish his crime 'spent). It is sad to see the nature of the lack of charity expressed by you and RH in particular but perhaps not surprising. The link below gives a quick introduction to the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974, commonly referred to as ROA.

http://www.crb.homeoffice.gov.uk/about_crb/what_is_the_roa.aspx

[Quillan]

It's stuff like this that reminds me why I left the UK, the place has gone totally mad. Just the other day we were asked by a friend of the ex MP who had just received his sentence to feel pity for him as his life is not ruined. Well quite frankly he should have thought about that when he stole/embezzled the money.

This student, who is a man being 18 years old threw a Fire Extinguisher of the top of a tall building not knowing where it would land nor who it could hit and what the subsequent effect it would have if it did hit somebody. Personally I have absolutely no sympathy for the man, in fact I would go as far as saying he should have got a stronger sentence, say three years. The fact he was lucky enough not hit somebody who at best could have been killed and at worse a 'human vegetable' for the rest of their life is as I said just pure luck.

Yes he will have a criminal record for the rest of his life but then nobody forced him to throw the Fire Extinguisher of the roof. He should have thought of that before he did what he did.

Finally, if PPP feels so strongly about this perhaps he would like to put his hand in his pocket to pay for an appeal.

[DerekJ]

I'm not known for being very forgiving and some might think me a bit to the right of Attila the Hun.... However, in this case I find myself broadly in agreement with PPP.

I totally agree that what he did was an act of extreme lunacy and highly dangerous, and as such he should be severely penalised. What I have difficulty with is the inconsistency of sentencing. Just look at the number of reports you see of scrotes who are terrorising their neighbourhoods that end up with an ASBO, or deferrred sentence.  Or George Michael with his repeated drugs/driving offences - no less dangerous to life and limb.  This seems a regular pattern.

Until PPP posted the link to ROA I had no knowledge to the differences between 30 months and 32 months.

Bottom line, do a I want to see an 18 year old have the rest of his life totally ruined for a moments lunacy? Well, even with my Attila the Hun hat on I can't feel comfortable with that.  I have to think back at some of the idiotic things I did at that age and how lucky I was never to have "been caught". With the application of a 30 month sentence some level of redemption and hope would have been available to him. Yes, a vindictive sentence I think.

A bit off track but.....  I still feel sad about the James Bulger case...  not just the obvious sadness over the treatment and death of poor James but also over the lives of the perpetrators - Robert Thompson and Jon Venables. - two 10 year olds whose lives effectively ended as a result. Yes they were evil and I make no case in their defense but it saddens me.

[Russethouse]

It is sad to see the nature of the lack of charity expressed by you and RH in particular but perhaps not surprising.

It's called setting an example and its something we could do with more of, not less.

He will have a criminal record, he risked some other poor person having a headstone or a hospital bed the rest of their lives.

 

[powerdesal]

Charity does not come into anything about this case. The scrote got off with a light sentence IMO, attempted murder should be more severely punished.

[Hoddy]

The fact that some sentences seem inconsistent does not mean that this one is too harsh. It could just as easily suggest that other sentences are too light. I think this one was about right. I don't see any reason why this young man should not live with the consequences of the decisions he's made. All of us do that to a greater or lesser degree and not at all us who disagree with the OP are 'bigotted protestant believers'.

Hoddy

[Gluestick]

Personally, I believe a number of hugely important aspects of this case must be taken into account, prior to suggesting this man's sentence was too light or over-harsh.

1.  His action was one of criminal intent:

2.  He was trespassing:

3.  He was engaged in anarchic activity:

4.  He was involved in a violent riot: not a peaceful demonstration:

5.  His target were police officers:

6.  He was challenging the power of the state:

7.  He was involved with a growing body of Trotskyite rabble, known for violent public disorder: ignorance is no excuse: associating with criminals and those of felonious intent means, at law, one is equally culpable. A righteous and law abiding man would have simply gone away at the first signs of civil disorder.

In these circumstances I feel his sentence is incredibly lenient.

[pachapapa]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

It is sad to see the nature of the lack of charity expressed by you and RH in particular but perhaps not surprising.

It's called setting an example and its something we could do with more of, not less.

He will have a criminal record, he risked some other poor person having a headstone or a hospital bed the rest of their lives.

 

[/quote]

A transparent system of justice should be based on the facts in a criminal charge as presented. It is sad that this is now not the practice in the UK. It used to be but it is not surprising if your post advocating the setting of an example is a reflection of opinion in the UK. It is indeed sad that the risks which MIGHT HAVE ENSUED from a particular action are used as a basis for justifying a particular punishment.

If I may add a piece for Rose... your assertion regarding footage taken by Sky News and it's relevancy as evidence reflects badly on what used to be a corner stone of UK justice when the criminal case was based SOLELY on the evidence presented to the court. Your disparaging dismissal of the presiding judges remarks regarding the mother obviously is just a small voice but a disturbing echo of present day attitudes by the public at large in consort.

[Hoddy]

I'm no lawyer but I would have thought that a reckless disregard of the consequences of one's actions has always been taken into consideration.

Hoddy

[andyh4]

[quote user="pachapapa"]. It is indeed sad that the risks which MIGHT HAVE ENSUED from a particular action are used as a basis for justifying a particular punishment.

[/quote]

 

Sorry PPP but I can think of a number of crimes where this is indeed the basis of the prosecution - or maybe you think drink driving is acceptable - just as an example.

[pachapapa]

[quote user="Quillan"]

It's stuff like this that reminds me why I left the UK, the place has gone totally mad. Just the other day we were asked by a friend of the ex MP who had just received his sentence to feel pity for him as his life is not ruined. Well quite frankly he should have thought about that when he stole/embezzled the money.

This student, who is a man being 18 years old threw a Fire Extinguisher of the top of a tall building not knowing where it would land nor who it could hit and what the subsequent effect it would have if it did hit somebody. Personally I have absolutely no sympathy for the man, in fact I would go as far as saying he should have got a stronger sentence, say three years. The fact he was lucky enough not hit somebody who at best could have been killed and at worse a 'human vegetable' for the rest of their life is as I said just pure luck.

Yes he will have a criminal record for the rest of his life but then nobody forced him to throw the Fire Extinguisher of the roof. He should have thought of that before he did what he did.

Finally, if PPP feels so strongly about this perhaps he would like to put his hand in his pocket to pay for an appeal.

[/quote]

With one singular exception, the concensus of opinion supports the sentencing consequences of the case; in my opinion the sentence handed down reflects a wider malaise in the Criminal justice System ( no capital, no typo, but no prefix in yet) so I have serious doubts that an appeal would be treated in a just manner. In any event you seem to be unaware of the constraints on appeal to a case where the plaintiff has pleaded guilty.

As he is now branded for life as a criminal, he will probably be able to in the months to come enter in to an enthusiastic pursuit of his criminal apprenticeship at a Youth Offenders Institution; leaving such institution a wiser polyskilled individual with a life of profitable criminality to look forward TO.

[pachapapa]

[quote user="powerdesal"]Charity does not come into anything about this case. The scrote got off with a light sentence IMO, attempted murder should be more severely punished.[/quote]

Oh Dear. Murder. actus reus + mens rea....The scrote was not charged with murder!

[powerdesal]

[quote user="pachapapa"]

[quote user="powerdesal"]Charity does not come into anything about this case. The scrote got off with a light sentence IMO, attempted murder should be more severely punished.[/quote]

Oh Dear. Murder. actus reus + mens rea....The scrote was not charged with murder!

[/quote] He should have been charged with attempted murder. He deliberately threw the firex from the building roof, knowing full well that there were people below and, if the firex hit someone it would probably (make that very probably) kill them. That he missed was down to good luck. In my book the act was an attemp to kill. At eighteen years old he is certainly old enough to be aware of his actions and the probable results and the act was deliberate.

[powerdesal]

Would you defend his actions if he had fired a gun at the Police and missed.

[Russethouse]

I heard today that the original charge was to be attempted murder.

You are on your own, or nearly, on this one PPP

[dave21478]

If it were up to me, he would receive a bullet in the back of the head and his corpse would be left to rot in the gutter for a week as a warning to others, but then my views on law and order have never been particularly orthodox.

People often say phrases like "heat of the moment" and "caught up in the excitement" about this - Frankly, that is bullshit. He is an adult, and since he was also a student, we can assume he has some amount of intelligence. He chose to throw a heavy object off a high building, knowing people were below. What did he expect to happen?

[Quillan]

[quote user="pachapapa"]

As he is now branded for life as a criminal, he will probably be able to in the months to come enter in to an enthusiastic pursuit of his criminal apprenticeship at a Youth Offenders Institution; leaving such institution a wiser polyskilled individual with a life of profitable criminality to look forward TO.

[/quote]

I doubt it, he is 18 years old.