I don't understand anymore.

[Théière]

So we have had a budget in the UK, and the tax threshold has been raised so everyone thinks the government are good and will vote for them next time. We are in a deep recession so can't keep our NHS, Police or Fire services because they are too expensive. Well they wouldn't be if you hadn't just given a way a huge amount of revenue by way of a tax threshold increase????

Of course once the NHS has been broken up you'll need all of that tax threshold and more to buy selective ( I am sorry Sir/Madam we don't cover pre existing conditions) private health care. Probably some more for private policing firms. and at least 2 garden hoses should anything catch fire!

 

[Quillan]

Raising the thresholds helps people on low incomes keep up with inflation.

The problem with the NHS is immediately somebody mentions 'privatisation' everyone instantly thinks if the US yet they don't look at Europe and other countries where there is privatisation of parts of their health service yet overall they provide far better service than the UK. It's like when you talk to somebody about paying to see a doctor here in France. They don't understand that you get most if not all (minus a Euro) back nor that people on minimum income or are unemployed get 100% state paid health care.

What I don't understand about the NHS having been in France for some time is why my doctors surgery in the UK needed 12 people to run it for seven doctors where as we have seven doctors at our local French surgery and there are only two staff. I also don't understand why if I need a doctors visit I can get one withing 10 to 30 minutes in France where as in the UK I am told if it is an emergency I should go to the AE. Neither do I understand why my old local hospital in London required eight full time secretaries to run the X Ray and ultrasound department yet my local hospital of the same size here needs two plus I can get dealt with here on a none urgent basis within 48 hours max for an X ray, ultrasound or scan. Likewise my wife who has an ongoing thyroid problem waits three weeks for a blood test result in the UK but can get the same thyroid test done in the morning and pick up the results in the afternoon. I'm no expert but clearly there is something wrong, either the French health system is not doing it's job and giving bad diagnosis or the UK system is grossly over funded and giving jobs to the 'boys'. Perhaps somebody could, without getting emotional about it, tell me which one is right.

[YCCMB]

And the "truth" (or anyone's individual perception of it) lies, I believe, somewhere between the two....

[suein56]

[quote user="Quillan"]Neither do I understand why my old local hospital in London required eight full time secretaries to run the X Ray and ultrasound department yet my local hospital of the same size here needs two ... [/quote]

Perhaps if the unions and management could get on better things would be different.

My son, when between jobs, worked as a replacement porter at a well-known hospital in Cambridgeshire whilst the main porter took his holidays. During his sojourn there he soon had the job sussed, whizzing round doing all that was needed and then having loads of time to himself to sit down with his feet up, read the paper, have cups of tea, do the crossword etc etc. Not only that but everywhere he went in the Hospital he was greeted with cries of ' .... but we don't usually get our mail/supplies/notes/deliveries dealt with so quickly, we normally have to wait ...' After his 2 weeks were over he was begged to stay.

He had a temporary job once in a factory and was told by the union man to slow down or he would have the bosses thinking why can't they all work like that ...

Sue [;-)]

[NickP]

I'm surprised to hear that your wife is getting treatment in the UK; Q, if your perception of the NHS is so bad. I reside in the UK and I think the NHS is great, I or my family have never been let down by it. By the same token my dealings albeit very little; with the French system; have been terrific, All I can say about the staff levels in the UK, is that the Doctors surgery where we live has a lot of staff because compared to any town in France the population in a small area is enormous, and there are six or seven Doctors plus practise Nurses. Our local Doctors in France, two Docs; no receptionist no Nurse, you make an appointment and invariably wait at least two hours longer. Our French neighbour had a bad turn the other morning, and we had to call emergency services, five fireman, three Samu and the local Doctor showed up. In the UK you call for help you get one technician and a Paramedic. So to sum up as I see it, you can't compare the two systems they are so different. One thing I will agree with you is Blood tests, French system is far ahead, but in our local French Laboratory are at least 12 people, in the UK local surgery one nurse. So once again a different systems.

[woolybanana]

Imagine an upside down pyramid - well, that is the NHS, with the drones, millions and millions of the little 'uggers feeding off the very small point that is the medical and nursing part. And of course when it comes to removing layers of drones, they are always able to point to their usefulness and to the need to cull the layer below them.

Plus, apparently, nurse training which now seems so technical that the idea of caring for patients seem to be very low down the priority list.

And politicians who have consistently lied to the electorate about that the NHS can do and what the nation can afford.

[Russethouse]

We are in a deep recession so can't keep our NHS, Police or Fire services because they are too expensive

You are starting from a mis-understanding - the NHS and Education budgets are ring fenced so yesterdays changes should have little effect on either. As far as I know the Police and Fire services have already had their cuts.

BTW Blood test results here are usually three or four days.....can be quicker if the Doctor specifically requests it.

[Rabbie]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

BTW Blood test results here are usually three or four days.....can be quicker if the Doctor specifically requests it.

[/quote]You're lucky! Two weeks seems to be the standard time here in Wiltshire. Mind you all the vet practices get the results back the next day if they have to send them away to a lab.

[Théière]

Some people walk slower, be they MP's Doctors, Lawyers, Civil servants only the armed forces walk quickly and that takes months of training at the tax payers expense (OK Q that was only a joke)

Blood tests can be done really quickly if you are a cancer patient, within the hour. So if we all went private all blood tests would take an hour? There would just be queue of people paying for blood tests.  The NHS does a great job for the majority but services do vary from hospital to hospital. Lewisham and Croydon do have attitude problems compared to the likes of Kings, Guys & St Thomas so that has to be addressed. there are a large number of management overseeing the running so that is where the ineffectiveness comes in and where changes should be made. 

Boris said less than 1 person an hour visits a police station so we don't need them. That's because people agree reporting crimes is basically a waste of time, It's apathy not the lack of crimes taking place.  

Budgets ring fenced is the short sighted accountants view of it didn't happen because it's not on my budget sheet! It did happen but on someone else's so there is still a cost and if you hand back tax allowances it's every working and retired person that benefits not just the low paid so the staus quo doesn't change. If everyone has a bit more the government have less to spend so can justify more cuts to services to get their own way.

Does the French health system & private cover all pre existing conditions?

[Gardian]

Over here, Mrs G has a monthly blood test. If the result has gone 'off limit', she'll get a phone call from the lab within 4-5 hours of the test.

Returning to the Budget, I was amused to hear that you'd have to drink 30 pints of beer per day to benefit by £10 / month.[B]

[Patf]

I get the impression that the NHS is overloaded with administrators etc because they're more scared of being sued. Need to keep the records straight.

France hasn't got to that stage yet.

[Rabbie]

[quote user="Gardian"]

Over here, Mrs G has a monthly blood test. If the result has gone 'off limit', she'll get a phone call from the lab within 4-5 hours of the test.

Returning to the Budget, I was amused to hear that you'd have to drink 30 pints of beer per day to benefit by £10 / month.[B]

[/quote]I heard a brewery director explaining this morning that due to the increased price of hops he did not think beer prices would come down.[:(]

[woolybanana]

One problem in France is that the relationship between the drug, test etc suppliers and the health system is very opaque and sometimes downright dishonest, leading to the system paying far too much for drugs and equipment. For example, there are far too many taxis ferrying people to and from hospital who could jolly well get themselves there under other steam.

[Quillan]

[quote user="NickP"]I'm surprised to hear that your wife is getting treatment in the UK; Q, if your perception of the NHS is so bad. [/quote]

She tried desperately not to as she has to wait weeks for x ray results as well as blood test results which have to be posted to France because she is back by then. Unfortunately due to the nature of her work she can't decide when she is going to be in the UK and sometimes it clashes with the time she has to have the blood test else she would use the French system exclusively.

[quote user="NickP"]All I can say about the staff levels in the UK, is that the Doctors surgery where we live has a lot of staff because compared to any town in France the population in a small area is enormous, and there are six or seven Doctors plus practise Nurses. [/quote]

Our town plus the villages surrounding it all rely on the one doctors surgery which has between six and seven thousand inhabitants on its list so on average one doctor per 1000. It only has one receptionist on at a time, one in the morning and the other in the afternoon and early evening. It also functions at the weekend as normal where as our doctors in London close at the weekend and they leave a message on the door to wait till Monday or go to the local AE at Newham General.

[quote user="NickP"]One thing I will agree with you is Blood tests, French system is far ahead, but in our local French Laboratory are at least 12 people, in the UK local surgery one nurse. So once again a different systems.[/quote]

That's because with the exclusion of hospitals the Laboratory is private and gets paid on results. We have about eight staff two of which take the blood, the rest do the analysing. Because it is private they have all the up to date equipment because they need quick turnarounds.

[quote user="Théière"]

Blood tests can be done really quickly if you are a cancer patient, within the hour. So if we all went private all blood tests would take an hour? There would just be queue of people paying for blood tests.

[/quote]

This is where the misconception lays and is typical of the thinking in the UK. Firstly yes of course cancer blood tests are done within and hour, you can actually sit and wait if you want.

What the French do is buy in the service like they do with scanners etc (I have access to three scanners within 30 minutes drive). You don't need private insurance and you don't have to pay either, well neither I or Mrs Q do. The government pays them directly if you have 100% cover if not the government pays 70% you pay the rest or have a mutual. Actually your mutual costs go down if you have health problems that are classed as 100% like my heart and Mrs Q's Thyroid problem. We now pay only 83 Euros per month which is cheaper than the £800 per month private insurance (on top of our NI contributions) in the UK.

[quote user="Théière"]

The NHS does a great job for the majority but services do vary from hospital to hospital. Lewisham and Croydon do have attitude problems compared to the likes of Kings, Guys & St Thomas so that has to be addressed. there are a large number of management overseeing the running so that is where the ineffectiveness comes in and where changes should be made.

[/quote]

Well as you no doubt know you are talking chalk and cheese here. King, Guys and St Thomas's are run with a private trust set up years ago which is why technically they are called NHS Foundation Trust. They are very commercially minded and sell their skills all over the world and have a very healthy bank balance that just keeps growing. You cannot in any sense compare them the most hospitals in the UK

[quote user="Théière"] Does the French health system & private cover all pre existing conditions?

[/quote]

I can't speak about private health cover in France as it is only available to foreigners who cannot enter the French system, all French residence have to pay to the state system. The state run system or the system run on behalf of the state is probably a better way of describing it does not penalise people at all on pre existing conditions.

Hope that answers some of your questions.

[Quillan]

[quote user="woolybanana"]One problem in France is that the relationship between the drug, test etc suppliers and the health system is very opaque and sometimes downright dishonest, leading to the system paying far too much for drugs and equipment. For example, there are far too many taxis ferrying people to and from hospital who could jolly well get themselves there under other steam.[/quote]

I am not so sure Wooly. When I had my knee operation and because Mrs Q does not drive I had a right old problem getting a hospital taxi to take me and bring me back. Perhaps it is a regional thing.

[Frederick]

What I do not agree with when it comes to NHS Hospitals.Is the free hand given to the architects when they build  them to put in stuff not related to the function of the building ....

I do not give a damn if going up stairs to a ward if the staircase is a steel frame  with lino treads as long as I get there and get my treatment.Most people probably think the same way . So why the need for marble staircases ?

Why the need for many thousands of pounds worth of art work seen  only as you drive into the hospital grounds .

 I had words with the boss of one hospital  who used a funds from people who had left money to the hospital  to pay an artist to spend three weeks to do a Mural on a wall ..This while the sister in the Cancer Unit was passing the hat round to raise funds to pay for needed chemo pumps and my community service club had to buy them for her  ...  I could go on .................

[Russethouse]

Q, Your wife is in London isn't she ? It would be interesting to find out how comparable services fare in Paris rather than where you live.

[NickP]

[quote user="Quillan"]

[quote user="NickP"]I'm surprised to hear that your wife is getting treatment in the UK; Q, if your perception of the NHS is so bad. [/quote]

She tried desperately not to as she has to wait weeks for x ray results as well as blood test results which have to be posted to France because she is back by then. Unfortunately due to the nature of her work she can't decide when she is going to be in the UK and sometimes it clashes with the time she has to have the blood test else she would use the French system exclusively.

[/quote]

So because you are using both systems to suit your situation, why should the NHS break it's neck to post your wifes results to France? You make me laugh you and others like you, you knock a system because it doesn't work the way you want it too, well my friend it works well for me and mine, and millions of others who live in the UK. As for you paying £800 per month in the UK that was your decision, I have never had the need or the money for private health care in the UK and you are only trying to muddy the waters saying that in France you only pay 83Euros. Yes in France it's necessary to have private health care, and don't those Doctors know it. Also I believe that in France you continue paying "National insurance" after you retire? Well you don't in the UK even if you go to work after the age of 65.

[Quillan]

[quote user="NickP"][quote user="Quillan"]

[quote user="NickP"]I'm surprised to hear that your wife is getting treatment in the UK; Q, if your perception of the NHS is so bad. [/quote]

She tried desperately not to as she has to wait weeks for x ray results as well as blood test results which have to be posted to France because she is back by then. Unfortunately due to the nature of her work she can't decide when she is going to be in the UK and sometimes it clashes with the time she has to have the blood test else she would use the French system exclusively.

[/quote]

So because you are using both systems to suit your situation, why should the NHS break it's neck to post your wife's results to France? You make me laugh you and others like you, you knock a system because it doesn't work the way you want it too, well my friend it works well for me and mine, and millions of others who live in the UK. As for you paying £800 per month in the UK that was your decision, I have never had the need or the money for private health care in the UK and you are only trying to muddy the waters saying that in France you only pay 83Euros. Yes in France it's necessary to have private health care, and don't those Doctors know it. Also I believe that in France you continue paying "National insurance" after you retire? Well you don't in the UK even if you go to work after the age of 65.

[/quote]

Er because she is tax resident in the UK and pays both employers and employees national insurance and tax in the UK therefore she has just as much right to use it as you and yours. I don't knock the NHS because it doesn't work for me and mine I knock it because of the standard of health care both my wife and  have received in the UK and I am talking from personal experience on more than one occasion.

Where on earth do you get this cr*p about "Yes in France it's necessary to have private health care". It is only a necessity if you don't pay in to the system because you are foreigner and are 'inactive', something the UK could learn from rather than give health care to any Tom, Dick or Harry that turns up and has never paid a penny in to the system. For the rest of us we, can't even get private health care, it is not allowed under French law, you have to be part of the state system. Many people don't even have a mutual either. No you don't continue to pay 'NI' in France when you reach state retirement age. In short you have not done your research and you are talking out of your bottom when it comes to France. But then France does not have to keep nearly 30% of it's health care budget to fight compensations claims and pay money out to the victims of the blundering NHS who employ doctors who can't speak English which is why they have introduced compulsory language tests for doctors and nurses.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9210312/NHS-team-to-test-English-of-foreign-doctors.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2005/mar/16/nhsstaff.politics

The problem in the UK when it comes to the NHS is that it is a post code lottery when it comes to standards of health care. Last weekend my friends wife collapsed twice in Cardiff and had to be taken to hospital immediately because there was no paramedic available. She ended up in The University Hospital of Wales. Couldn't get a scan because the scanner was broken and they couldn't get an engineer till Monday. But then if you read the UK press never a day goes by without some medical c*ckup being reported in any newspaper. France on the other hand is not by any means perfect but our experiences are a 1000 times better than we have had in the UK and at least I get clean sheets on my bed something sadly lacking when I was treated in the UK.

[Russethouse]

I,m sorry, the old post code lottery argument won't wash, because as we know from postings here over the years it is no different in France

[Quillan]

[quote user="Russethouse"]Q, Your wife is in London isn't she ? It would be interesting to find out how comparable services fare in Paris rather than where you live.[/quote]

Yes, Newham but she does not have a choice because our flat is at that end of Docklands. We are hoping to buy a flat near St Thomas's as they are much better and quite a super hospital we are told.

I am sure Paris is not much different to London, there will be good and bad places to get treated. The problem is that we are talking a post code lottery in both countries although France to a lesser degree. I only know hospitals in Carcassonne, Montpelier and Toulouse and whilst the hospitals run at a far higher standard than I and Mrs Q experienced personally in the UK (not just at Newham I should add) but it seems that it is down to whats wrong with you and who the best person at treating your particular illness decides which hospital you use in France. The real issue is that it shouldn't be a post code lottery in either country should it. Everyone should receive the same standard of health care where ever they are in the UK and France. Perhaps we have just been particularly unfortunate in the UK and very fortunate in France but I am not convinced.

[Quillan]

[quote user="Russethouse"]I,m sorry, the old post code lottery argument won't wash, because as we know from postings here over the years it is no different in France[/quote]

So all the hospitals are as bad as Newham then, I never knew things had got that bad. [:(] Seems pointless selling and buying another flat in a different post code then.

[Quillan]

Life is strange. I left my computer to go back and what TV and whats on ITV, a program entitled "Has the NHS Stopped Caring" and the investigation of the mistreatment of several hundred patients by nurses who have neglected them leaving them to starve, or worse, to death. Obviously not all the millions of people using the the NHS are happy with them.

[Russethouse]

Move to the Royal Berks area, Ok, it has its faults, but on the whole we have been happy with it ......29 minutes from Reading to Paddington.

[YCCMB]

Well, here you go, Quillan, here's MY experience of the French system.

Some years back my OH was knocked off his bike by a strong gust of wind, not far from our French house. Some construction workers building a new bypass scraped him off the tarmac and called the SAMU because he was incoherent at the scene (or, as I like to describe it, "speaking English").

there then followed this sequence of events.

1. Two ambulances turned up, from opposite directions. Whilst my OH - in severe pain - stood, then sat, covered in blood at the roadside (and I'd arrived by then, so I saw all this) they argued the toss about whose jurisdiction he was in, before one lot won the toss and took him away.

2. Making my way to the hospital under my own steam, once I arrived, no-one would tell me anything - anything - until they'd seen my insurance: EHIC. And then all they DID tell me was to wait. Which I did. Patiently, for some four and a half hours. My OH, whose French is limited, was not aware of whether I was there or not, and I was not permitted to go anywhere near him, nor to be told what was happening to him or where he was.

3. Finally, he came out of a door, wearing a neck brace, and with his face still completely covered in his own blood. Clearly, the lean staffing levels in French hospitals preclude them from giving outpatients the dignity of wiping the blood off their injuries. He was followed by a doctor, who was about as French as I am, who shoved a prescription at me, and told us that if we wanted his x-rays we should go back the following day.

4. We returned the next day for the x-rays. Another hour's wait before we were given the envelope. Oh, and on leaving the hospital the first time, we were given a prescription. It's been about five years, now, and I don't think we'll EVER get through that quantity of Doliprane and Betadeine, unless we start bathing in it.

5, Upon return to England, OH took himself off to see his chirporactor, who pronounced the neck brace to be about as much use as a handbrake on a canoe: totally unnecessary.

6. Despite OH trying, frequently, to indicate that most of his pain was in his hand and arm, this was neither examined nor x-rayed. As a consequence, he's left with  residual, inoperable damage to his right hand, which our UK GP and the specialist he saw back here both agree could potentially have been avoided and dealt with immediately after the accident, saving him from this problem which he will now have for life.

So, just as I am sure you will argue I've been unfortunate in my experience of the French health service, I will respectfully point out that your own (or your wife's) experience of the UK health service is not necessarily representative of the state of the NHS as a whole. Just because I, or you, has had a shit time of it in one place, in our personal experience, this does not give you (or me) anything other than a personal insight into a tiny part of a huge system.