The hottest topic in Europe yet....

[YCCMB]

...something the UK government has been offering for the best part of 15 years.....

I should know, I taught on the scheme until recently.

[NormanH]

I too was teaching a language class, with a good deal of practical bias such as writing CVs, job interview techniques, how to find accommodation etc 15 years ago, and it was paid for by this region.

It was however for French people to help them to find work in English speaking countries.

However the existence of such programmes and the length of time they have been in place are things that seem to me an irrelevance, although some people will always turn theses things into UK versus France in these discussions.

[YCCMB]

They're no more irrelevant than your pomes, Norm ?

There's been a lot of feigned outrage in the UK press about the new UK Govt plan to offer free English lessons to Muslim women. I can't understand this. Free English lessons were previously on offer to all EU nationals and asylum seekers and had to be withdrawn. In my view, from the "front line" this was, at that time, a wise move overall. When they were free, the EU contingent, in particular, came in droves (it wasn't unusual for me to start a term with 50 students: crowd control rather than teaching) and then disappeared week by week, because they had no financial investment in coming. Then they'd gradually reappear, disrupting the flow of lessons for the regular attendees.

The free lessons were, if anything, too successful, and it became obvious that subsidies were being paid for "bums on seats" but the bums were no longer on the seats after a few weeks.

An exception to this were often Muslim women, and I've previously cited the example of a group of Somali women in Hammersmith, who were delighted to attend daytime English lessons when they were free, because their husbands didn't know they were out learning English during the day, but once fees were introduced they could no longer make clandestine trips to English classes. I've taught dozens of Muslim women over the years, some of whom haven't been able to engage with anyone outside their immediate or extended family because of their lack of English, despite living in Englamd, raising families, etc., over many years. I'm sure that will be fodder for some to cry "See? They don't want to integrate!" - but again, if you will forgive a comparison with France, there are probably just as many Brits living there, or in Spain, Portugal or Italy, who haven't made any effort to learn the language of the country they're living in, either.

Meanwhile, and crucially, lessons in the UK for EU nationals are subsidised but there is a fee. Luckily, as the VAST majority (if not all) of the students I've ever taught have been in paid employment, they have willingly paid, and attendance at classes - for me and them a total of 5 hours a week - rarely fell below 100%

RELEVANCE? (Sorry, caps lock stuck there, too lazy to delete and restyle even though typing this took longer!) well, we have been welcoming and helping people integrate through the acquisition of language skills for many years now. Resources, however, are finite. For the people arriving from these war-torn and otherwise dysfunctional countries, however, language skills are the least of their problems.

An interesting question raised by Andy in response to my earlier remark: if it is accepted that the money being paid to people traffickers by refugees is going, in large part, directly to DAESH/ISIS etc., I wonder if it occurs to the refugees themselves that they're actually paying directly to fund the very wars they're hoping to escape?

[NickP]

[quote user="lindal1000"]Since when have I said that I am more caring and compassionate than you.. that is entirely your interpretation of it..but if the coats fits.

I'm sorry but saying that people feel animals are more likeable than humans is a hateful comment. You may disagree..that's your choice.

I'm sorry I disagree with you, Nick, but there you are..that what happens in a debate that is aired on a public forum.

I don't hate you or anyone by the way..although the inability to get emoticons to work on any posts does rather leave the emotional context of the post up to interpretation.

Anyway..no time to write more as off to my 3 hour French class, subsidised by the French government with the aim of aiding immigrants to integrate into the community.[/quote]

What annoys me Lindal is that anybody who disagrees with mass immigration is immediately jumped upon by those of the political left and termed anti Muslim, Islamophobic or xenophobic, also quite wrongly may I add; accused of being fascist sympathisers.  Well I'm anti mass immigration  for the reason that I would like our government to put my/our taxes to help the under privileged and under represented, less well off and suffers of ill health in our country first. OK if there's any left we could look further afield, but we have too many social problems and lack of infrastructure that need sorting out before we take on other countries problems.

  As for what the lack of emoticons and your lack of ability to implement them is in relation to this discussion is beyond me. Although it doesn't seem to be a problem, as your verbal dexterity and change of tack in the written form is there for all to see.[:D]   P.S I don't like dogs or cats by the way, I wouldn't harm one but don't wish to own one, so as for me saying animals are more likable than humans is laughable.[8-)]

[mint]

I have avoided mentioning the value of the lives of dogs and cats to their owners as I have an excessive and irrational love for my dog.  In fact, most of our lives have been governed by the preferences and wishes of our pets; cats and dogs.  And, no, I haven't chosen to be a pet owner but, alas, the little blighters have chosen to live with me...........and yes, there is a difference!

Indeed, I have told OH that should his life and the dog's be on the line simultaneously, it'll be a close run-thing as to which one I would save first![:$][:D]

Come on, guys, lighten up, though the topic itself is of the utmost seriousness and gives me much sadness.  Let's have different viewpoints as that is what is of interest.  And let's have some accounts of working with migrants, immigrants, asylum seekers as there is nothing like first-hand accounts to inform one's point of view.

Governments themselves are, to my mind, acting pragmatically and it doesn't look like their heart is in it.  I am certain that if European governments could agree on a course of action, they are capable of doing something useful.

Cameron will no doubt quite soon call a Cobra meeting, in other words, a talking shop from which no effective decision will result.

[YCCMB]

An interesting Guardian article from a few years ago showed some figures from Eurostat regarding population growth.

Perhaps the EU would do well to consider some of the issues raised in this study in terms of the need for more younger people to enter the working population, if for no ther reason than to shore up the older generation and provide people to boost the working population?

What IS clear is that the birth rate is as much of an issue as migration. However, that aside, Britain is going to become so densely populated (and not, necessarily, as a result of immigration) that it may well sink!

A well-read and well-educated refugee with a bit of entrepreneurial spark might even consider that a better future may well be found in a country other than the UK over the next 40-odd years.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/aug/27/population.eu

It's of note that this precdates the current crisis by a number of years...so no parti pris.

[lindal1000]

Back from the French class..which incidentally isn't free either but at 90 euros a year can hardly be said to cover costs.

I make no apologies whatsoever for challenging views that seem racist or zenophobic. One of the first things that happens when people start scapegoating other ethnic groups for whatever else happens to be going on is that they start to demonise them in their mind and to see them as somehow another species and I see some of that in the tone of many discussions..not just on here.

I don't have any magic answers any more than anyone else, but what is it that shops the EU, including the UK, putting in place a plan to process the applications of everyone who is currently living in limbo land, decide if they have a genuine right to Asylum, or a right to reside in one of the member states, and for those that don't, deport them. The laws already exist that decide who can come in and who can't and it seems to me that there is a lack of willingness to take a co-ordinated approach. Sweden has done just that.

[NickP]

Once again Lindal your comments are just sweeping generalisations. How does being anti mass immigration; make someone guilty of being racist, xenophobic or scapegoating other ethnic groups. I find it amasing that you never answer the question but just continue with your blinkered dogma. By the way the UK already does have a system for dealing with asylum seekers and illegal immigrants. Although it appears that some people, and I  think you're one of those; who don't live in the UK don't like it, and want to dictate to the UK what they think it should be doing. [:P]

[Judith]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]Is it possible to be both self-centred and caring?

Just asking.[/quote]

I think you can be self-aware, even selfish (of your own) self, which some may consider self-centred, and caring, simply because if not self-aware etc, you won't be able to continue the caring role for long.  It is possible to care, but be aware that not all help is possible in all circumstances.

Late reply - been out all day!

[Patf]

The "rightwing" comments on here have been mild, compared with some I've seen on another forum, (not a francophile one.)

The situation is so unusual, never having to face it before, many people are frightened. The numbers are so huge. And combined with the Daech threat, even moreso.  Are they connected?

As I wrote on the first page, I think Andy4 explained the dilemma well.

[lindal1000]

I think the connection with the Daech threat is that many of the refugees are actually fleeing Daech themselves, either because they aren't Muslim, or they are the wrong kind.

Like you this is one of many forums and groups I follow and one of them is from the volunteer groups working in Calais and Dunkirk . I wish I could work out how to post links to Facebook sites because there was a link from a photographer who had taken a series of photos of individuals there, focussing on the pictures they had brought with them. One had a picture of his friend hanging from a pole.. taken out by Daech and killed in front of them. He said at that point he left. Whatever law you look at, people have a legal right to seek Asylum in a safe place when faced with situations such as that. From what I've read from people going into the camps, it is of course not full just with people seeking refuge. There are also a number of people jumping on the bandwagon who are probably seeking a better life, a number of criminals and people traffickers etc. So I don't know how you go about sorting that out.. but some of them do have genuine need of asylum. There are plenty of women there with young children and some unaccompanied minors that have family in the UK, (although the UK is now going to process their applications after the court decision last week).

[DerekJ]

I thought those in Calais and Dunkirk were in a safe place.... at least I thought France would be considered a safe place.

[andyh4]

A key problem for me ( and highlighted by todays statements) is that for refugees that have remained in the horrible camps there is now a smidgen of hope that the UK may provide some succour. Unaccompanied children who are "at risk" will be considered for being give refugee status in the UK.

Those that have taken a risk to escape the deprivations of these camps; who have had the gumption to escape from their given lot; who have perhaps the innate skills ( and money) to try and create some kind of life that is better and have moved to the EU (including the Jungle end Dunkerque camps) ; are now excluded - even if they have family - including parents - already in the UK.

The problem for anyone who is now in the EU is that there is no mechanism to apply for asylum in the UK.

I do not want to open doors to all. Neither the UK nor the EU can cope with that. But my humanity says we must be more attentive to children in camps within the EU.

[lindal1000]

[quote user="DerekJ"]I thought those in Calais and Dunkirk were in a safe place.... at least I thought France would be considered a safe place.

[/quote]

Probably, but I think up until now (and now) the French have not allowed them to apply as it was not the country in which they first arrived in the EU. This is the difficulty with the current situation, as far as I can see,, in that all of the EU countries are trying to pass the buck and say it isn't their problem, whereas it is everyone's problem.

[DerekJ]

[quote user="lindal1000"] Some are now being encouraged to apply for Asylum in France and then, if accepted they can apply to the UK, if they have close relatives there.[/quote]

I just hope the UK will resist that.

[YCCMB]

My only issue with the whole "where should they go" question - and I do, totally, believe that this is a humanitarian issue - is that there does appear to be a certain pig-headedness among some refugees. By which I mean that they are hell-bent on reaching the UK and nothing else will do. I've seen numbers of them on TV, being interviewed in Calais and elsewhere, saying just that. I've tried, many times, to put myself in the position of someone fleeing unbearable war and unimaginable hardship in my country of birth, and wondering why I wouldn't be prepared to stop and settle and have it all over with as soon as possible, rather than continue to live in such horrible, inhumane conditions just because I "want" to go to the UK.

I do, strongly, believe that the UK has a duty, as part of a wider European strategy, to rehome a share of these refugees. What I can't understand is why so many seem to feel that they'd rather spend weeks, months, years in some cases, enduring further (possibly unnecessary) suffering and hardship, just to be able to exercise the luxury of choice as to which country they want to go to. It seems somehow at odds with the idea that "refuge" is a safe place- ANY safe place, rather than a single, specific chosen country.

I completely support the proposal that children, especially those with family members in the UK, should be brought here to join their relatives. I think it takes a very cold heart indeed to imagine that they don't deserve or have the right to some stability and security after what they've been through.

[Chancer]

Having done 2 trips to the jungle at Calais with bedding, clothing, sleepings bags, gazebos, tarpaulins and food and soon to be a 3rd trip to the camp at La Grande Synthe I cant help but think some of you would change your opinions somewhat if you were to witnessed the reality that these people are faced with, it has certainly changed my views.

It was still relatively warm at night last time I visited, its currently 3°c in my sheltered courtyard warmed by the buildings on 4 sides of it.

 

I first went when a Customer, now a friend asked me if I had anything to donate, she was going but was concerned to be a lone female so I went with her, she lives at Dunkerque and the last time we dropped stuff of at Calais just a handfull had set up at Grand Synthe, now there are 5000 I will see if her views have changed and in what direction. 

 

I have been forced to sleep rough before, luckily it wasnt winter, it was frightening enough, to have a few others join you might make you feel more secure but can you imagine if the numbers rose to 5000 in less than 2 months? That there were gunfights and knife fights between muslims and christians, that you were a woman with young children amongst all the lawlessness massively outnumbered by men in their early 20's who dont have the same respect for you that people did at the home you had to flee from?

[idun]

This week Andy Burham (Labour) said that not enough was being done for the refugees on the other side of the channel.

Now, these people have as many 'rights' to apply for whatever in France as they have in the UK. So why didn't they?

Andy Burham did not give an opinion on what France should be doing, which was a pity, because, at the moment, these people are in France and France should be doing something about them.

I make no apology for my point of view. This is quite different from WW11.

[YCCMB]

Chamcer, I think the whole situation in the Calais jungle is appalling. But I'm still baffled by the concept that people are camping there with the main aim of trying to gain illegal entry into the UK. it's that point, and that point alone that perplexes me.

I'm yet to hear a story that reports that someone walks through the tunnel (or hides in a lorry), arrives in Folkestone, walks straight into a police station and asks for asylum. How often does that happen?

It's the whole issue of people putting themselves through this because they WANT to live in the UK, as if that, alone, confers a right. There will be many among them who do have, or should have that right. But, equally, there are plenty who don't.

[DerekJ]

If the conditions in Calais and Dunkirk are not acceptable that is down to France to resolve. If there are unaccompanied children then, again, it is up to France to take the appropriate action. It is not down to the UK to sort this out. So far, we haven't been foolish enough to allow this mass movement of people into the country and long may that remain so.

Just because many may want to come to the UK doesn't mean anything. We are told they wanted to escape danger. Well, they've done that.

[NormanH]

http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/12/rapports/r1292.asp

[Jonzjob]

Please correct me if I am wrong? But I was under the impression that if you were fleeing a country and seeing asylum then that had to be done in the 1st country you came to out of the country you were fleeing from?

If that's the case then the U.K. can only be that place if they arrived by ship all the way around Spain and France, not via them. It would also seem that there aren't many landing directly in France either?

So these people are not migrants, they are illegals. Sorry if my view upsets anyone, but I don't see how you can hope to

empty one country into another? Especially when that/those countries are pretty full anyway?

If it were the case that the so called asylum seekers were to return to their own countries after the problems were solved, but then again that's about as likely as flying pigs?

[ebaynut]

Chancer wrote,

 

Having done 2 trips to the jungle at Calais

with bedding, clothing, sleepings bags, gazebos, tarpaulins and food and soon to

be a 3rd trip to the camp at La Grande Synthe

 

 

 

As the ‘jungle’ is an illegal encampment, and

the inhabitants are all trying to enter the UK illegally, I would suggest that you

yourself are also breaking the law by aiding and abetting offenders to commit

criminal acts..

 

 

Lindal made the reference between dogs and

refugees, well I prefers dogs to refugees, I keep two in my home, as you seem to

prefer refugee's, instead of breaking the law by assisting them to commit crime,

why don't you house a couple of them back at your place, you clearly have

enough rooms for them!!

 

[Chancer]

You really are missing Quillan aren't you!

 

I'm sorry to dissapoint you but I dont take the hook like he did, neither does Lindal.

 

Maybe if you ever contributed to the forum in any other way than that which you do I might consider you worth debating with.

[ebaynut]

THE PARIS ATTACKS

 

If Europe had not allowed all the asylum seekers/ immigrants/ refugees or

whatever you wish to call them in, then the Paris attacks would not have

happened.

 

After that, how anyone should think that we should allow even one more of

them in beggars belief.

 

Thank goodness Dave seems to be resisting ever louder calls for the UK to

take more, if the UK is so poor that the government are having to pursue the

right to impose the ‘bedroom’ tax on disabled people in the UK, then I don't see

how or why we should have to accommodate and pay for anyone from beyond these

shores.