The hottest topic in Europe yet....

[idun]

I wrote to DEFRA recently as someone told me that most of the non pork meat in the UK is now hallal.

Did I get a straight reply, no. And must chase it up.

 I do not want hallal meat either. I eat meat, but try and buy meat that was treat well as an animal and killed in a humane manner.

[YCCMB]

Just to put your mind at rest, Idun.

According to an RSPCA report published last February, less than 2% of all beef and 16% of meat of all types slaughtered in the UK using Halal methods was not pre-stunned. New Zealand lamb (which was the subject of all the furore in the press a few years back when it came to light that ALL NZ lamb sold in the UK is slaughtered using halal methods) is ALL pre-stunned.

Interestingly, you probably have more to be concerned about with meat that has been killed using the schechita (Jewish) slaughter methods, where many parts of the animal are deemed not kosher anyway, so they're sold off without any indication further down the food chain as to how the animal was killed. It is estimated by the RSPCA that less than half the meat killed by schetita methods is sold in kosher shops.

[Patf]

There was an article in yesterday's Depeche about 7 immigrants who have arrived in Auch from Calais. From Sudan and Syria, young men. The article says "Originally there were 14 immigrants who ought to have stayed in the Gers, on 9 Jan.,But only 7  of them agreed to get off the bus, which came from Calais." More are expected.

I wonder what happened to those who stayed on the bus, and why they didn't want to get off?

[andyh4]

Idun

I am sorry but I simply cannot allow your earlier posting go without some comment.

You seem to take my comment collated from Syrian refugees and apply them to "the camps", and yet when I look at those poor unfortunates there, I struggle to find the significant number of obviously middle eastern peoples that represent the arrivals in the EU. It should be more than half.

So when you say you do not believe these are all educated men in the camps, then I cannot disagree because we are not talking about the same group, and for the camps, I have no information to support or deny.

Indeed if you said that not all Syrian refugees were highly educated, I could not deny that either since to do otherwise it would only take 1 from the 600.000 that arrived last year to prove you right and me wrong.

I understand the concern in the UK with the camps which are at the garden gate if not at the back door, but

we need to be careful about centring on the Calais and Dunkerque camps, Eurostat records 1.22 million people arriving and claiming protected status in 2015. "The camps" with around 5000 inhabitants represent just 0.4% of the total. That is slightly less than the derisory interest on my savings accounts - in other words four fifths of FA.

The whole lot could be let into the UK and it would hardly disturb the 60m inhabitants at all - not that I advocate that necessarily. It would only provoke a repeat of the Merkel effect.

Of course EN will be along and tell me that 25% of those 60m are already immigrants and indeed I believe I have seen DNA data that Mr Farage himself is indeed suspect! (ironic smiley to be inserted here- or is that sarcastic?).

The problems of immigration in the EU are very much greater than some here seem to imagine. By all means be parochial, that is your preserve. But parochialism will not provide any solutions - look at the current EU mess.

Regarding the rights of women won over many years - and ongoing - I fully agree and we will not surrender anything; but the tenure of your posting goes against all of the liberal struggles that won those rights in the first \place.

You seem to be stuck in a media based view of what all Muslims are. I suggest you get to know some educated Muslims where you will I think find the same value sets as you and I share. Demonising all Muslims for the standards set by the Taliban and the Caliphate, just adds to their strength and denies those Muslims who would oppose them with a different view.

[andyh4]

As a further point for those who ask why refugees don't apply in France: in 2014 (the last year where collated statistics are available) the top 4 EU countries receiving refugee applications were:

Sweden

Germany

Italy

and

France

[idun]

 I see educated muslim women all the time, and I could scream when they are wearing their 'scarves'. It offends me to my core. There will be no changing that. Same same with nuns incidentally.

 Surgeons, I welcome full head covering as I do other medical people and people who need to protect their heads for their jobs.

Would it make a difference? Well for the last few nights I have been herberging a homeless person..... and just how many on here have actually done that, just wondering?????? Not a friend incidentally, just someone my son vaguely knows.

As it is, in the NE of England, actual housing is being found for refugees, some of the indigenous population who end up homeless are told there is nothing available. So not make a difference, how could it not. And then some locals could be provided with half decent housing, because life can be horrible here too and things get thrown at  people that is beyond their control.  Refugees etc are being bused into this area,as apparently housing is available...... and there isn't one for  at least one person who needs a new home.

So yes, I am selfish, very selfish. But I care about the planet. I care about lots of things just not about what others care about.

[andyh4]

My mother used to wear a headscarf. It kept the rain off her perm and helped keep the worst of the winter weather from freezing her head.

Methinks you are too deeply entrenched in your views I. Did you ever ask any of the women why they wore a scarf?

[mint]

Lol, Andy, Idun doesn't mean the sort of scarf the queen favours[:)]

Not much amusement to be had on this topic in reality..................more drowned in the sea today and I see the backlash in the form of organised rallies and attacks against migrants have started.

Some of my worst fears are being realised.  You'd have to be pea-brained not to anticipate months (perhaps years) of civil unrest and social division.

You know how it is, just when you think that things are ticking along nicely, something comes along and upsets it all.  And you are helpless and powerless in the face of these seismic shifts; we may not have earthquakes but we are certainly living in very interesting times[:(]

[lindal1000]

Do you think times are really any different or is it just that now with the Internet and phones that can take and upload a picture in seconds that it is just that events are more easily shared? Social unrest is on YouTube the minute after it happens and perhaps creates the impression that it is happening everywhere. The Tottenham and Brixton riots were over 20 years ago and there has always been episodes of unrest, but mostly they don't affect anyone apart from those immediately involved. I agree the current displaced people are from countries closer to us geographically than in other crises, but in numbers, no more than have been displaced by other conflicts.

[Patf]

Going back to my question last night about why the young migrants didn't want to stay in Auch - just guessing, but I should think they want to be in a big city where there are more job opportunities.

Auch is a small market town, not much work there.

There are 100s of empty houses in the Gers, a little bit of work and they could be decent homes for 100s of migrant families, but no hope of jobs to support them.

We do need doctors though!

[Jonzjob]

This could help to sort the situation

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35452306

but don't mention ze varrr [Www][Www]

[ebaynut]

Betty wrote,

 

It would appear that predictions are that

population growth in the UK over the next 40-50 years are going to be driven

largely by births rather than immigration. And this, based on research that

predates the current situation by several years.

 

 

As has already been stated, the white

indigenous population of the UK are not having as many children as their parents

and their grandparents, so most of the predicted births in this period going

forward can be accounted for by these young immigrants/refugees.asylem seekers

breeding.

 

The Muslims will not need to be immigrants and

entering the UK, to change this country completely, they will breed and populate

at a fast rate, as this is their way.

 

When the name Muhammad is grouped with the

other two ways of spelling it, it was the most popular boys name in the UK last

year.

 

I see the white people who want to let this

‘lot’ in as someone who finds a couple of lion cubs abandoned by their

mother. If they don't take the cubs in and feed them they will die. So being

kind caring people they take them back to their garage and feed and look after

them.

The lions grow and have cubs of their own, as

its such a nice place they are living in. The old lions remember the kindness of

the people who took them in, but the new generation wonder why they live in the

garage when the white people live in the nice big house, after all, why should

this be, they are stronger then the people who took them in, next thing you

know, the lions eat the kind people and take over the house.

[YCCMB]

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-will-britain-have-a-muslim-majority-by-2050/13690

http://fullfact.org/news/muhammed-or-oliver-most-popular-boys-name/

[NickP]

[quote user="andyh4"] but

we need to be careful about centring on the Calais and Dunkerque camps, Eurostat records 1.22 million people arriving and claiming protected status in 2015. "The camps" with around 5000 inhabitants represent just 0.4% of the total. That is slightly less than the derisory interest on my savings accounts - in other words four fifths of FA.

The whole lot could be let into the UK and it would hardly disturb the 60m inhabitants at all - not that I advocate that necessarily. It would only provoke a repeat of the Merkel effect. .[/quote]

Where are all these people going to live and in what, where are the schools, hospitals, G.P's that would be needed? You obviously haven't thought about that, bit like allowing your savings to be earning 0.4% interest. I'd rather they stay in France and didn't disturb the 60m inhabitants there. Britain is a small island that is already overcrowded to the detriment of our own less well of financially. After all I keep hearing on "French" forums how many people in the UK are sleeping on the streets and how many food banks there are. So sorry we're full up.

[NormanH]

Perhaps the French government could commandeer the holiday homes of those Brits wealthy enough to not need them to live in, and house those who wish to go to the UK in them while waiting?[6]

[NickP]

[quote user="NormanH"]Perhaps the French government could commander the holiday homes of those Brits wealthy enough to not need them to live in, and house those who wish to go to the UK in them while waiting?[6]

[/quote]

They could "commander " my holiday home any time they like, but as it doesn't seem to take orders from anybody, it's not likely to start now. [:P] Any way if they were billeted in my holiday home they'd never want to leave. [:D]

[Hoddy]

They have already commandeered an empty 'village de vacances' near Tremolat (24). It opened before Christmas, but I don't know if it's still going.

[mint]

[quote user="NormanH"]Perhaps the French government could commander the holiday homes of those Brits wealthy enough to not need them to live in, and house those who wish to go to the UK in them while waiting?[6]

[/quote]

Now THAT'S what I call a bit of lateral thinking and must surely be an imaginative solution to the housing of migrants?[:D]

PS do spare barrels count?[8-)]

[YCCMB]

That's a great idea, Norman. I'm sure being billeted in Bled/s/Oued with no shops for miles and zero chance of integration, employment or any form of support network is just the kind of solution that's needed. ?? mind you, in the full spirit of EU co-pe ration and equality, there are thousands of French/Dutch/German-owned holiday homes going begging too!

I assume that those native French citizens who are homeless or struggling to get accommodation will be all in favour, just like they are in the UK? ?

[mint]

No shops, chance of integration, employment, etc?

Did they consider those things before putting the migrants in places like Bute and Middlesborough?

No wonder everybody is fed up, migrants, locals, people on the forum, etc

Why don't they house them in the leafier suburbs of Surrey or some of the more convenient Home Counties?

Happier migrants and no one will then complain that those are places they can't afford to live in because they won't be wanting to live there themselves.

[lindal1000]

As far as I know the refugees are still there in 24. It was basically two Syrian families. They have been supported by local volunteers.. a mixture of French, English etc.

I don't know about UK but in France they do think quite carefully about placing people in areas that are not in the middle of nowhere. The refugees don't have any transport and have to report to various authorities on a regular basis (this is France after all..to do anything you need to produce paper copies of everything 7 times). There have been plenty of people that have offered holiday homes or empty properties but they need to be in reasonable distance of a centre for administration purposes, or at least near some public transport. Most holiday homes are too remote. Even in our village, where there are several empty properties, we are too inaccessible for things such as schools, doctors, language classes etc.

Our Internet was down yesterday so I had plenty of time to ponder things. It left me wondering what people's actual real experiences of people of different backgrounds or origins is. To put it in context, growing up in London when I did I have never known a time when my friends, (school, work, leisure) were not from a mix of cultures. So to think about disliking people who are Muslims, Indians, Jewish, Black, seems to me completely odd as they were some of people I went to school with, were the people I worked with, the people I sang with in the choir I was in; we shared similar interests, we had similar ambitions. Some of my female Muslim colleagues wore a headscarf but they weren't oppressed.. we could still talk about the same things. Is it that people have only ever lived or worked in an 'all white' environment?

[YCCMB]

Well, as "some of the leafier suburbs of Surrey" are already oversubscribed and overpopulated, I can imagine it'll endear them to those on council and affordable housing waiting lists, for a start. And there will be zillions of column inches in that solution for the Daily Mail!! " Immigrant spongers given homes in stockbroker belt whilst hard-working Brits live in a shoe box"

It doesn't really sit well with me that this thread is heading for the ever-so-slightly spiteful.

Like Lindal, I've never known anything other than a multi-cultural society. I grew up in Bolton, went to school with people of many different faiths (and it was, relatively speaking, a "posh" school, so not exactly the "deprived, inner-city" model) and then on to university in Bradford, which, aside from its Asian population, had a huge Polish population even back then. From there, to study in France, in a technical college in the Vosges where, even in the mid-70's I was one of 17 different nationalities among a very small cohort of students, and on to a career where I've never, ever worked with people of a single race, faith or nationality... Whilst living on the outskirts of Slough..another of the most racially and culturally diverse towns in the UK.

I've never felt intimidated, disadvantaged, discriminated against or in any way threatened by anyone of another faith, race or culture, which is one of the reasons I find all this unfathomable.

I can see the logic to needing to put in place some sort of control on immigration in general: not because I dislike immigrants, but because the UK is small, and won't get any bigger, and we are, simply, running out of space and resources. I also have problems reconciling the perception had by many of those wishing to reach the UK with the reality.

[lindal1000]

I too can see the logic YCCMB... but isn't the irony that despite the perception that people have, the UK has pretty stringent border controls and is pretty effective at controlling them, helped by the fact that it is surrounded by a big moat! Illegal immigration is actually relatively difficult and whilst I'm sure it happens the numbers must be relatively small. Legal migration for non EU Citizens is pretty strict..ie, you have to have a job and your employer must prove that they can't recruit from the UK and earn more than the family credit level. To bring in family you have to be in a well paid job (to the extent that a British Soldier couldn't bring in his American wife as he didn't earn enough). The only freedom of labour is between EU citizens which doesn't seem to be what is upsetting people at the moment. Mainland Europe has many more difficulties with border controls, because you only need to walk down the road or across a field to move around.