Brexit deal: the effects on British immigrants in France

[EuroTrash]

@ALBF I imagine he's already got one.

[BritinBretagne]

[quote user="alittlebitfrench"]What exactly is a CDS permanent AnOther ?

Please everyone, do not go to your local prefecture and annoy them trying to apply for a CDS. You will pîss them off.

And besides, it is a pointless plasticky thing that does not fit in your wallet.[/quote]

I’m sure that only a couple of weeks ago you were telling everyone how a CdS was vital as it could be used for proof of identification and so much more convenient than carrying a passport around.

[alittlebitfrench]

True BinB....but that is about it in terms of its functionality.

[lindal1000]

An excellent summary of today's agreement here.

http://www.remaininfrance.org/the-december-deal-is-it-good-for-me.html

[andyh4]

ANO wrote:

to enable the effective exercise of rights derived from Union law and based on past life choices, where those citizens have exercised free movement rights by the specified date.

To date, both Parties have reached a common understanding on the following.

The specified date should be the time of the UK's withdrawal."

With terms like those bolded the only logical interpretation has to be that you must be in a qualifying position - i.e. 5 years residency - on the specified date, not just moved.

That is your interpretation, which I personally think is wrong.

As Eurotrash has indicated it takes 3 months to imply residency and in my opinion (and I stress my) that is sufficient to indicate that a citizen has exercised his rights under free movement.

To suggest otherwise would be to say that someone who say moved in May 2015 (when the referendum first appeared in the Tory manifesto) would not have a right of residence. Certainly they have no right to a permanent CdS, but that just simplifies the process of getting the necessary piece of paper. Moving in 2015 shows clearly the desire to exercise the right of free movement IMHO.

Your argument seems to be predicated on having a permanent CdS but since holding a CdS is at best discretionary for EU citizens (and we still are) and at worst has been refused even though you can legally demand one, it seems to be based on very shaky ground.

What we can say is that anyone with a CdS (and possibly not even a permanent one) gets the new piece of paper at no cost.

I am sure these are the sorts of discussion and argument that we can expect over the next 40 odd months until everything is bedded down (or not).

[Alan Zoff]

Thanks for posting that link Lindal1000. I found it really helpful

[NormanH]

It is just another of those sites that interprets  the original  documents.

Far better go to the source material.

On the question of the carte de séjour I didn't suggest that anybody else would need to get one, just that those of us who have already bothered to become correctly registered will have it converted free:

"those already holding a permanent residence document issued under Union law at the specified date will have that document converted into the new document free of charge, subject only to verification of identity, a criminality and security check and confirmation of ongoing residence"

This doesn't fit the eligibility of other people for permanent residence.

For ALBF

 The carte de séjour permanant  that I hold shows quite clearly that I have the right to permanent residence, although like a passport the actual card has to be renewed every 10 years.

[URL=http://s253.photobucket.com/user/bfb_album/media/Screenshot_2017-12-08_20-10-31_zpstl3s84gn.jpg.html][IMG]http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh80/bfb_album/Screenshot_2017-12-08_20-10-31_zpstl3s84gn.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

[alittlebitfrench]

You make two important points there Norman.

1)Norman said ... "just that those of us who have already bothered to become correctly registered"

Well, you don't need one. You used to need one. I have had two. But, today you don't need one. So you are as correctly registered as everyone else....accept that you have a plastic thing that is great for signing cheques with or buying a mobile phone. Apart from that, not much use.

2) Norman said.... "The carte de séjour permanent that I hold shows quite clearly that I have the right to permanent residence, although like a passport the actual card has to be renewed every 10 years"

If it is permanent, why do you have to renew it every ten years ? If you committed a serious crime, I guess it will not be renewed. Therefore, it is not permanent.

it is not a French identify card.

My feeling is that, Brexit or non Brexit, anyone who is not French will never be a permanent resident of France.

Is it the same in the UK ?

[EuroTrash]

I agree with NormanH on that. If got all the paperwork together and went along and insisted on being issued with a cds now, then all I would have to do come Brexit would be prove ID and residence all over again and have the security checks. However I have enough red tape in my life and on balance it seems economy of effort to go through the process once and for all, even if I do have to hand over a few euros which might or might not be the case. It's not a case of not bothering to become registered correctly, it's more a case of not wanting to waste my time and their resources on getting a card that I see very little point in and that will have to go to landfill in less than two years.

[NormanH]

If it is permanent, why do you have to renew it every ten years ?

It indicates a permanent right of residence, but the card itself is renewed every 10 years as is a British passport for example.

I explained that above but clearly you are as unable to read and understand English as you are French.

ET that is exactly what I said. There is no point for you.

The point I keep trying to make is that those with the carte de séjour  about which some people were casting  doubt because it is for EU citizens, will in fact see it converted.

[EuroTrash]

What it boils down to is, the cds doesn't give you any rights, it's simply a convenient way of confirming the rights that you have in any case by virtue of your circumstances. You prove your rights once at the prefecture and they give you a cds that other sections of the administration will recognise. I can see how it's easier to flash that one card rather than have to produce avis d'imposition and an attestation of health insurance and all the rest of it every time you need to prove legal residence, eg if you want to register with CAF or whatever. And the cds wil serve exactly the same purpose when it comes to applying for the new document.

[AnOther]

For as much as it says 'permanent' there are qualifications, principally your continued presence - which now means you can spend up to 5 years out out of the country instead of 2 - plus ongoing health care and self sufficiency etc. so issuing a card for 10 years gives the authorities the opportunity to verify eligibility at renewal time, not unlike the new 15 year duration driving licence which I can't believe sooner or later will not come to incorporate some sort of health checks, or at least a declaration, at renewal.

If you want a life long unconditional right of residence then you take up citizenship.

That's my theory anyway !

[Chancer]

[quote user="EuroTrash"]I agree with NormanH on that. If got all the paperwork together and went along and insisted on being issued with a cds now, then all I would have to do come Brexit would be prove ID and residence all over again and have the security checks. However I have enough red tape in my life and on balance it seems economy of effort to go through the process once and for all, even if I do have to hand over a few euros which might or might not be the case. It's not a case of not bothering to become registered correctly, it's more a case of not wanting to waste my time and their resources on getting a card that I see very little point in and that will have to go to landfill in less than two years.[/quote]

 

Its also called not panicking or being influenced by what those that did would like you to believe.

 

I read some figures that in Picardie they had processed only a couple of citizenship applications from UK immigrants over the preceeding years and then after the referendum they were besieged, and that is in a departement with relatively few compared to others.

[alittlebitfrench]

I can see the CDS becoming some badge of honour amongst Brits living in France.

I have got one, have you ? Yeah I got one. Is yours 10 years or 5 years. Mine is 5 years. Ha ha I got a 10 year one. Ne ner ne ner ne. I'm more French than you !!!

Seriously, don't degrade yourselves.

[Sprogster]

To me the biggest annoyance would be that as an expat in France post Brexit one would be landlocked and unable to enjoy freedom of movement to other EU countries like Spain and Italy, if you wanted to relocate. Presumably, only answer would be to obtain French or another EU citizenship.

[NormanH]

L'obtention

d'un titre de séjour permanent vous permet de confirmer que vous avez

le droit de vivre en France de façon permanente, sans autre condition.

Il

peut vous permettre de faciliter vos démarches administratives puisque

l'administration n'aura plus à vous demander de prouver que vous

disposez d'un emploi, de ressources suffisantes ou d'une assurance

maladie.

[AnOther]

Well there it is then Norm and thank you for correcting me.

Of course it's not entirely unconditional because the time out of the country factor still applies but it's a small point which I doubt will be of concern to many people.

It does sort of beg the question as to the benefits of going the citizenship route which is a far more drawn out and involved/onerous process although that would conclusively remove any doubt over onward movement.

[quote user="EuroTrash"]If I got all the paperwork together and

went along and insisted on being issued with a cds now, then all I would

have to do come Brexit would be prove ID and residence all over again

and have the security checks[/quote]Given Norms post I don't know where you get that idea from not to mention the perverse logic in saying on one hand that you've had enough of red tape whilst at the same time refusing an opportunity to do something now whilst it's a know, straightforward, and relatively quick process, as opposed to putting it off and having to go through (as you yourself suggest) something which will be at least as officious - and quite likely more - later.

I stand fully by my position that if qualified it's better to obtain your titre de séjour sooner rather than later though for which I reiterate the single overriding justification which is that there can be NO disadvantage to doing so.

Only you ALBF could come up with a daft and juvenile comment like yours

[alittlebitfrench]

What juvenile comment are you referring to Another ? I make so many that I lose track. LOL.

On a serious note, yes go get a CDS if it will help you sleep at night. Personally I think it is a bit daft given all the paperwork involved. It will all change come/if Brexit. I am not sure that it will be such an easy swap as people think.

I read somewhere that Prefectures were turning people away and telling them to come back once Brexit is sorted. Given the amount of paperwork involved I don't blame them.

You still are EU citizens and you don't require a CDS.

[nomoss]

[quote user="andyh4"]

The UK has and had a number of reciprocal healthcare agreements with countries outside of the EEA - for example many parts of the former Yugoslavia.

It is not without possibility that post Brexit there will be reciprocal agreements with the EU27.

Aa ALBF suggests do not worry too much at this stage.[/quote]

Very true, but unfortunately these agreements only provide temporary emergency cover, similar to that provided by the EHIC, not for those taking up residence in another country.

See [url]https://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/Healthcareabroad/countryguide/NonEEAcountries/Pages/Non-EEAcountries.aspx[/url]

[nomoss]

[quote user="alittlebitfrench"] ................ I read somewhere that Prefectures were turning people away and telling them to come back once Brexit is sorted. Given the amount of paperwork involved I don't blame them.

You still are EU citizens and you don't require a CDS.[/quote]

Read and remember this, then.

If someone walks into a Prefecture asking for a Titre de Sejour I'm quite sure they will be told to make a rdv. Maybe if they don't understand what they are being told, or simply can't be bothered they will just tell everyone they were "turned away". It makes for a good tale about "The French", anyway, har har har.

We contacted our Prefecture by email for a rdv for a TDS application on June 17 this year. They replied within 3 minutes to check our nationality, and half an hour later gave us a RDV for Sept 25, and emailed a list of documents they required.

It took maybe a couple of hours to copy and collate the documentation, and couple of days to get an official translation of our marriage certificate.

After a short wait on Sept 25 we handed over the documentation, completed a few formalities, and were given official receipts for our applications.

We received our TDS's on October 14.

[alittlebitfrench]

This is where I read it....

https://www.thelocal.fr/20171121/brits-seeking-residency-permits-in-france-told-to-come-back-after-brexit

Don't ask me why I read that website ....lol

Again I would say, the CDS does bring anything to the table.

[nomoss]

An interesting article,albf.

Maybe you could make the links you post "clickable", so that there is no need to copy and paste them

Having quite a lot of first-hand knowledge about the general accuracy of newspaper reports, I wonder if they are telling the full story. e.g. did Mr Mold actually submit a full application, or just make an enquiry?

I doubt there will be "almighty queues at the prefectures" . This is from the Gironde Prefecture's website regarding TDS applications:

Horaires d'ouverture

Du lundi au vendredi : de 08h30 à 12h30

(uniquement sur rendez vous)

Du lundi au vendredi : de 13h30 à 14h45

(uniquement sur convocation)

Du lundi au jeudi : de 09h00 à 11h00

(accueil téléphonique au 05 56 90 60 60)

Mr Mold does not need to take legal action at this stage, a good move would be to contact SOLVIT [url]http://ec.europa.eu/solvit/index%5Fen.htm[/url]

I found them very helpful in the past with a problem I had in Spain.

[AnOther]

https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/Brexit/Embassy-wants-to-hear-about-carte-de-sejour-problems

So couple of rogue Prefectures go freestyle, nothing new there, but it's not a question of requiring a CdS it's a question of exercising rights enshrined in EU law.

Perversely the very reason that the Gironde are allegedly giving that UK is still in Europe so you don't need a CdS is the same reason which demonstrates that they are acting in contravention of the law and people are right to be worried about that because if they are prepared misinterpret the law - or worse deliberately ignore it and perhaps for motives driven by nothing more than monetary or resource limitations - come the day UK does actually leave the argument could easily switch to bugger off you're no longer European !

Ultimately they wouldn't get away with it but it could create completely unnecessary worry and chaos for those affected along the way until they were brought into line.

I'm done with the topic though, we've made our applications and it was nowhere near the bureaucratic hell many who have not like to imagine. Whether they will prove of any value only time will tell but I can only reiterate - yet again - that I see no possible downside.

[EuroTrash]

"Given Norms post I don't know where you get that idea from not to mention the perverse logic in saying on one hand that you've had enough of red tape whilst at the same time refusing an opportunity to do something now whilst it's a know, straightforward, and relatively quick process, as opposed to putting it off and having to go through (as you yourself suggest) something which will be at least as officious - and quite likely more - later. "

Experience, An0ther.

Since I've been here there have been so many instances where new business regulations have been introduced, and the typical pattern is that as soon as Brits get their first whiff of something that might be changing, there's widespread panic and everybody rushes around trying to second guess what they're going to have to do and get it done before the procedures have even been finalised. On the French forums the response is a gallic shrug and "let's wait and see what happens". Invariably the French way has turned out to be less hassle in the end. An example, earlier this year it was announced that all businesses that take cash over the counter would be required to use approved "fraud-proof" till software as of 1.1.18. The Brit business forums were full of headless chicken activity, people were either wanting to know how to close their businesses or full of outrage that the government hadn't published a list of approved software so they could decide which to buy, even though the change was six months off and businesses were going to be given a long period after the change in which to comply. On the French forums the view was, nah they're never going to expect small businesses to comply with this, it doesn't make sense, too much hassle all round. So many Brits working themselves up into a state, and meanwhile government was continuing to look at all the implications before finalising the new regulations, and as it's turned out small businesses aren't going to be affected.

There seems to be a very "them versus us" feeling amongst expats when it comes to dealing with the authorities, as if people expect them to make everything difficult just for the fun of it. My experience has been the opposite, that if you wait for them get their procedures in place and then do exactly what they ask, things normally go very smoothly. I've never found any organisation to be officious so I don't see why they would be over this. I've learnt to follow red tape to the letter, without wondering why or trying to be clever and find a way round it. They want this or that form filled in by a certain date, I fill it in by that date. They ask a copy of this or that document, I send it. I don't ask why they want it and I don't send a load of other documents as well just in case they want those too, that would just risk confusing things. They're doing their job and I co-operate as best I can, It's stress free, though it takes up enough time doing what I need to do that I'm not going to start doing things I don't need to do. So thanks for the advice but I'm going to stick with my way.

[alittlebitfrench]

ET is quite correct.

I have had two CDS in the past and on applying for my third one the prefecture told me (with a smile) to go away. You don't need one. So I did.

So yeah, I will wait until they tell me what I need and I will apply for it.

I have edited this post because despite repeated requests to posters it tries to introduce problems from another forum on to this one. Hoddy