Brexit deal: the effects on British immigrants in France

[Chancer]

 A very astute observation, I had forgotten that.

[Cathar Tours]

My dad is getting in quite a state about this quoting different newspapers and TV news. I told him to go to the source rather than believe newspapers which can be found here.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/brexit-negotiations/negotiating-documents-article-50-negotiations-united-kingdom_en

There are three documents, a press release, technical document for EU citizens and the negotiators report which is a little less technical.

I told him that in my opinion it would not do any harm to apply for a residency permit now. There will be a massive rush to get a permit after Brexit. It may even be cheaper or at no cost to convert at a later date.

It seems that those with S1's will continue (according to the technical document) to benefit from their healthcare being paid by the UK. Those getting UK state pensions should continue to get their annual increases after Brexit, something I am sure the UK will be keen to get out of at a later date.

However as somebody said at the beginning of the thread a lot could change before the Brexit agreement is signed.

My dad lives in the Aude so if anyone has recently got hold of a residency permit could they let me know who they contacted (phone or email address, prefer the latter because his French is not so good especially over the phone), what the prerequisites are and what documents are required.

[YCCMB]

This "massive rush" of which you speak...

Assuming every single British person living in France goes ahead and applies, and that none have done anything between now and Brexit ( i.e. nobody dies, leaves France etc) then best estimates ( https://fullfact.org/europe/how-many-uk-citizens-live-other-eu-countries/ ) suggest that fewer than 200,000 people are affected. That's 0.003% of the population of France.

[EuroTrash]

That's true but 200,000 people spread amongst 96 departments is still quite a lot of extra paperwork per department. And it won't be spread evenly - departments in Normandy and Britanny and Dordogneshire and other areas that are popular with expats, will have far more than their fair share.

If average processing time is 1 hour per application (I imagine it would be a lot more if you add in all the queries that are bound to arise), that's 200,000 man hours, which is the equivalent of a hundred years of extra work. To get it done within a year, that would keep 100 employees busy full time. Unless every department is going to employ an additional member of staff - at the taxpayers' expense - there might be a few delays, no?

[alittlebitfrench]

Has anyone heard of the prefecture at Nanterre. People literally have to queue during the night outside to be able to get in the next day.

I have driven past and seen the queues. Very scary. Especially when it is 30 + degrees.

Yeah, so if everyone rushed out to get a CDS (which they don't need) they are just going to put unnecessary pressure on the system. Just wait. I am.

[Cathar Tours]

Thanks for the link but it is not a "fact" just a guestimate based on old data 2010/11 and some from 2015. Even then as it says it is only a guestimate based on "official" data collated by ONS, how many Brits live under the radar. The only way you can get near is in countries that require compulsory registration and again that assumes nobody is under the radar.

The point is there may be one or two people dealing with EU residency permits in each department and they only have to deal with a few Brits asking for a permit. As somebody has pointed out this will go well beyond their current capacity. That said perhaps they will take on more staff (something the French are quite good at I am told), who knows, but you can only work with what is currently in place.

PS. If you look at French websites the number is wildly inconsistent based on their own "data" which is also very old. It's the same in Germany.

[YCCMB]

I'm quite clear about it being a "guesstimate" but it's not an uninformed one and quotes reliable sources with the necessary caveats. I LOL-ed about your idea of people living "under the radar", as I'd venture to suggest that they're probably least likely to suddenly present themselves at the nearest prefecture asking to register, surely?

[nomoss]

There are several people here saying one should wait until Brexit before applying for a TdS, but it is still possible there will be no final agreement reached, by which time it will be too late to exercise rights of free movement, and who knows what new legislation will be in place in two years or so.

I prefer the reassurance of my newly issued TdS, which gives me the right to stay here until October 2027. I have already experienced big problems when residenct rules have changed.

Some years ago I moved to Australia, worked there, paid my taxes, voted in elections, got married, and had a family.

We left, as we thought, temporarily, when I accepted a job in the Middle East. It never occurred to us to register as permanent residents before leaving, as we had the same rights as born Australians at the time, but when we wanted to return, the rules for Brit migrants had changed, and we were required to get visas.

The visas were granted over a year later, still subject to more medicals for all the family, but by then everything had changed. We had moved to Spain, and the children had been in school there for several months before we moved.

They did us a favour actually, we believe our kids got a better education in their English school in Spain than they would have ever received in Australia (or where we lived in the UK - we already tried that for a couple of disastrous years, one of the reasons we went to Spain) but it served as a warning that the goalposts can be moved without warning.

[AnOther]

[quote user="EuroTrash"]If average processing time is 1 hour per application (I imagine it would be a lot more if you add in all the queries that are bound to arise)[/quote]We were processed together but individually in the space of our allocated 30 minute slot and that was with us deciding on what documentation to take, there was no guidance from the Prefecture.

I imagine as applications gathered in volume though they would oil the wheels by publishing a definitive list of requirements and repeat it when appointments were made which should result in minimal queries or aborted applications.

[nomoss]

[quote user="Cathar Tours"]

My dad lives in the Aude so if anyone has recently got hold of a residency permit could they let me know who they contacted (phone or email address, prefer the latter because his French is not so good especially over the phone), what the prerequisites are and what documents are required.[/quote]

We got our 10 year permits from Carcassonne in October.

Details are here, including email addresses and phone numbers. I have already posted details of what we did on this forum, and don't feel prepared to keep doing this. I can't remember in detail anyway[:(]

[url]https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F22116[/url]

I contacted the Prefecture in Carcassonne by email for a rdv, and they sent a list of documentation they required, which was slightly different from the list on the service-public website.

[andyh4]

NoMoss

in your disaster scenario where there is no agreement, your CdS becomes invalid since it is for a citizen of the EU which you will no longer be.

If it gives you a warm feeling to have one, then fine, but I am with ALBF here that it is not likely to confer much if any benefit.

[nomoss]

[quote user="andyh4"]NoMoss

in your disaster scenario where there is no agreement, your CdS becomes invalid since it is for a citizen of the EU which you will no longer be.

If it gives you a warm feeling to have one, then fine, but I am with ALBF here that it is not likely to confer much if any benefit.[/quote]

I still believe we're better prepared for any eventuality with our TdS. We shall all see eventually.

I expect my French driving licence to remain valid in that scenario, too.

Fortunately, policies are decided by the French government, not by peoples' opinions on forums, however authoritatively stated [:)]

[nomoss]

CatharTours.

Here is the thread in which I posted our experiences in Carcassonne. [url]http://services.completefrance.com/forums/completefrance-forums/cs/forums/9/3429834/ShowPost.aspx#3429834[/url]

The paperwork required depends on individual situations, but these are quite clearly set out in the list provided by the Prefecture.

[nomoss]

[quote user="andyh4"]NoMoss

in your disaster scenario where there is no agreement, your CdS becomes invalid since it is for a citizen of the EU which you will no longer be.

If it gives you a warm feeling to have one, then fine, but I am with ALBF here that it is not likely to confer much if any benefit.[/quote]

You must have done a lot of research since your post last month, or were you simply persuaded by albf? EDIT: [:D]

[quote user="andyh4"]Thanks Nomoss

It leaves open the question what happens when we cease to be EU citizens, but perhaps buys 8.5 years of peace.

Time scale was meant to mean time of validity = 10 years.

I will seriously think about applying - which was the background to the question.

Thanks.[/quote]

[Cathar Tours]

Thanks Nomoss for that, I will print it off and sort it out for him.

One thing it said, unless I misunderstood, in the technical notes was that if for instance you have your permit and then there is a requirement to change it into another form of permit after Brexit they can't charge you (page 17 I think).

It's really up to the individual as to what they do and what they are happy with. Because nobody knows exactly what the final outcome will be then getting a residency permit now that's valid for 10 or more years (or whatever) it will at least possibly give you more breathing space once the UK has left to decide what you want to do.

Who knows, the EU might decide that if you have lived in the EU for 10 or more years you can have an 'EU' passport. Certainly the 'Blue Card' gives you the same rights as all EU citizens.

One thing is for certain is that the current UK government cannot be trusted with respect to Brexit especially that fella Davis who has been caught lying twice now. As for BoJO, Gove and Moggs, well enough already said really. So whatever they say now should be taken with a pinch of salt in my opinion.

[nomoss]

Bu99er!

I just realised  that our Passports say European Union on the front.

Maybe we can get away with Tippex-ing it out[:D]

[andyh4]

NoMoss

A lot of research done since the earlier post? No not really. Just responding to new information; namely that existing residence documents will be exchanged. And having some experience of the bureaucratic logic of Brussels and how it works, that is code for we will replace invalid documents for valid ones.

[nomoss]

[quote user="andyh4"]NoMoss

A lot of research done since the earlier post? No not really. Just responding to new information; namely that existing residence documents will be exchanged. And having some experience of the bureaucratic logic of Brussels and how it works, that is code for we will replace invalid documents for valid ones.[/quote]

So, if our TdS become invalid as you suggest in the event of no final Brexit agreement (which actually leaves us no more non-EU than if an agreement is made), you are saying they are likely to be replaced by valid ones.

I don't see how that rationale goes with your previous assertion (2 1/2 hours ago, one page back) that "it (the TdS) is not likely to confer much if any benefit".

The benefit I see is that TdS already issued are likely to continue to be valid, and exchanged for different ones when they expire, avoiding an unneccessary bureaucratic exercise.

I am sure that it would be somewhat more difficlt to exchange nothing for a valid TdS than to exchange an invalid TdS for a valid one, and that it is much easier to apply now, as an EU citizen, than later, as a non-EU citizen, which is rather more involved.

[EuroTrash]

"I am sure that it would be somewhat more difficlt to exchange nothing for a valid TdS than to exchange an invalid TdS for a valid one, and that it is much easier to apply now, as an EU citizen, than later, as a non-EU citizen, which is rather more involved."

I'm expecting the process for applying for the new post Brexit TdS to be identical to applying for a pre-Brext TdS now, ie you will need to prove that you've been exercising treaty rights and living here legally, preferably for at least 5 years.

So the two options I see are, you can get a soon-to-be-superseded CdS now and swap it for a new one in a couple of years, or you can wait a couple of years to get one of the new ones and not bother getting one now. Six of one and half a dozen of the other, as I see it..

[nomoss]

[quote user="EuroTrash"] .............. you can wait a couple of years to get one of the new ones and not bother getting one now. Six of one and half a dozen of the other, as I see it..[/quote]

You may be right, but we prefer to hold documents which clearly state we have the right to reside here until October 2027, which we were given free of charge after a minimum of effort[;-)]

[Chancer]

So the two options I see are, you can get a soon-to-be-superseded CdS now and swap it for a new one in a couple of years, or you can wait a couple of years to get one of the new ones and not bother getting one now. Six of one and half a dozen of the other, as I see it..


Or the 3rd option which is where I amp utting my virtual money.

 

Nothing to do, no changes, you could even have lived in a cave and known nothing about Brexit, no-one is going to drag you out of your cave and deport you, you can carry on living peacefully and legally as you have always done, you could ask for a TDS if you wanted but as you had never seen the need before then you wont now, in any case the response would be the same as it has always been, - "you dont need one M'sieur".

 

Aside from Nomoss whose logic I can understand given past expériences why are so many others rushing to do so at this time? Why not before in the last year? Why not at any other time since coming to France? Did they perhaps think Brexit would not happen and the penny is finally dropping? Or did they pay €5 to listen to some so called expert who didn't even know that you could hold dual nationality telling them to apply for a TDS on the hurry up?

 

 

[EuroTrash]

Well if that is an option Chancer then that's the one I'm taking. However if the law says that as all non EU citizens need a cds, and we as non EU citizens don't have one, then in fact we would not be not residing legally. Sooner or later they are going to update their admin computers so that British are treated as non EU citizens.and at that point CPAM or whoever will ask for a copy of the cds and if we don't send one they will close our rights until we do. I know that eg US citizens who live here need to keep their cds up to date because it's in the same category as birth certificate and passport, that you have to provide copies of for CPAM and CAF before they'll deal with you.

Of course if you don't have anything at all to do with any of the government agencies then I guess it would work. We all deal with the fisc but I don't somehow think they will insist on seeing your cds before they will take your money.

[nomoss]

[quote user="Chancer"]Aside from Nomoss whose logic I can understand given past expériences why are so many others rushing to do so at this time? Why not before in the last year? Why not at any other time since coming to France? Did they perhaps think Brexit would not happen and the penny is finally dropping? Or did they pay €5 to listen to some so called expert who didn't even know that you could hold dual nationality telling them to apply for a TDS on the hurry up? [/quote]

Maybe they are beginning to realise that no-one in authority really gives a sh** about them, and things don't always work out "for the best". I'm sure my experiences are not unique, and the one I mentioned is not the only event.

I was born in a British colony, where my Father was stationed with the Forces. My Mother and I returned to the UK just before the War broke out.

One day, in the 80's, after we moved to Spain, I was refused entry into the UK at Heathrow. I was told I did not have "right of abode" and told to get back on the plane to Spain.

I threw a total wobbly, refused to move, told them they were not worried about where I was born when I was called up, or in the Forces, and after a great deal of argument they gave me a temporary visa for a couple of days so I could visit my Mother, and told me I had to go to the British Consulate in Spain with various documents to get a visa for the next time.

I have always carefully kept my original Birth Certificate, as it would be impossible to get another copy from the country I was born in, and, fortunately, my Mother was able to give me my Father's Birth Certificate and their Marriage Certificate, which were also required.

Eventually the Consulate stamped the magic words "Right of Abode in the UK" in my Passport, and they were actually printed in the next Passport when I renewed it.

During the interim, while I was worrying about what I was going to do about my and my family's future, without a home country, I researched getting a Passport from my country of birth.

I found that, although at the time of independence I could have opted to take nationality, that option had long since ceased, and only those born there with both parents born there could claim nationality, so I had missed out on that long ago.

My son, who was born outside the UK, had similar problems, and also had to establish my father's nationality, even though we took care to get a Birth Certificate from the British Embassy, who assured us that this was as good as one issued in the UK to prove his naionality. The goalposts move all the time. Now two of his offspring, born in the EU, can never get UK nationality, so may never be able to live there, as this can only be passed on through 2 generations. That's the last time I looked, it may have changed again by now.

My wife and I also have relations born outside the UK who thought they were British, and used to move freely back and forth, but one day found they could no longer live in the UK. One, who has now passed away, was always scared to leave the ex-colony where she was taken by her British parents from another ex-colony when very young, in case they would not not allow her back in. She got a re-entry visa whenever she left there, but was worried it would not be accepted when she went back, and that she could end up stateless.

The lessons I have learned are never to assume what was true last week will be true next week, don't think that officials know about what they are talking about, and reorganise your affairs as soon as the possibility exists, it all may change sooner than you expected.

On a less important level, but the same principle, we exchanged our UK driving licences for French ones soon after we decided to stay here long term. It was free, very easy to do at the time, and resulted in our having "paper" licences with no expiry date for cars and heavy trailers (B and BE). Going by recent posts on various forums we have thus avoided queues and delays in getting French licences, and also having plastic licences which expire and will possibly require a medical to renew in the future.

[Judith]

Seems to me it all depends on your circumstances, your worry level, and frankly, how much being in France is necessary for your future life, career etc etc.

It also seems to me that anyone who has been here legally, for enough time (I have) paid their taxes and can prove it, has sufficient income, even as an inactif, will always have the right to remain, even if there may be a few hoops to prove it (but surely no more than many another transaction we all do regularly).  It is  highly unlikely that France will say bye bye to all those expats who put so much into the economy.  [And if they do, tant pis, it's another step on the varied route of life].

Yes, if you do already have a CdS for whatever reason, it could be helpful, but as it seems very much is still up for grabs, including things which might happen in our own personal circumstances we can have no idea about yet, and because most of us have enough to do anyway, I will wait, though I did seriously think about after last Friday's "agreements".  I researched what was needed and said, tough, not just now, thank you, I've better things to do with my life at least until we know a little more.

[AnOther]

Received notifiction today that our CdS's are available for collection, five weeks to the day and over Christmas.

[quote user="EuroTrash"]Six of one and half a dozen of the other[/quote]

Is there any tangible advantage, none of us can know or can say, but it's for absolute certain that save a bit of photocopying and half an hour of our time there is no disadvantage so I'll call it seven of one and five of the other [:)]