Enclaves?

[Richardrawlings]

Hello

Please could you tell me if you work, on a daily basis, in a French company with French people or have most of you got Gites, B&B, or drive for a living?

How intergrated are you with your French neighbours do you have the same level of freindship with them as you might have if you still lived in England?

Do you find that you tend to cluster together in little english speaking enclaves?

Many Thanks

 

[Cerise]

Think the answer to that depends on each individual and perhaps their ability to speak French.

We do have B & B, but I would consider us very well integrated (whatever that means) with our neighbours.  They are all French, we see most of them on a daily basis, we help each other when the need arises, chat over the fence and invite each other round for aperos, coffee etc.  None of my neighbours in England were my best friends, we were simply friendly on a daily basis - if anything I see more of the neighbours here than in UK simply on the basis that the nature of our job here means we are at home, whereas in UK we were both away all day.

I don't make friends with people on basis of nationality - but I can see that you might need to if you did not speak French.  You cannot really have a proper friendship with people if you can't get past 'Bonjour'.  I can understand why people would want to mix with others that they can communicate with.

We also have little time for lunching out or sitting in bars as we are not retired - and I do feel that this is the kind of social life that many English people have as they have a lot of leisure time.  I work part time as volunteer in the library, am on the local Committee for Tourism and go to yoga classes - obviously then I meet people, but not necessarily other English people.

Many English people in France are retired so it is perhaps more difficult for them to learn the language, and maybe they don't want to.  So long as people make an effort to communicate in the rest of their lives i.e. administration, shops etc I can't see it matters if they want to live purely with other English speakers.  It wouldn't do for me as I like to be part of what is going on, but we are all different.

Maggi

 

 

 

[Tourangelle]

It is an interesting question, it got me thinking, I haven't had a face to face conversation with a native speaker of English since February. I can't really say whether or not I am integrated as since my husband is French it is a bit different. I think the opportunity is out there if you wanted to find an enclave. Here in Lyon there seem to be lots of opportunities. I know from a magazine they give out at the consulate here that there is an English church, there are groups for working women, mother and baby things and so on. However, having arrived speaking the language I've never felt a desire to investigate any of these groups further. The advantage of living in a big city is you take it or you leave it. nobody cares! I do think language is the key.

[Hoddy]

I think you have to be careful when defining a forum member. I am retired and a part-timer. Our house is only used by us, even our family don't visit unless we are there even though they could.

So far as I'm aware there are no other English people near us and most of our acquaintance is French, some of them I would count as friends.

Cerise said, "Many English people in France are retired so it is perhaps more difficult for them to learn the language, and maybe they don't want to. "

I'm not quite sure why you make such a sweeping generalisation, Cerise. We retirees have more time to attend classes simply because we are free of the necessity to earn a living.

Our best friends are retired French people - one a local farmer and the other a couple from Paris who also have a holiday home in the village. I don't seek English friends in France, I have plenty of them in England.

Short of us all filling in a questionnaire I don't think it's possible to answer your question properly Richard.

Hoddy

[Miki]

".....Cerise said, "Many English people in France are retired so it is perhaps more difficult for them to learn the language, and maybe they don't want to. "

Hoddy replied "... I'm not quite sure why you make such a sweeping generalisation, Cerise. We retirees have more time to attend classes simply because we are free of the necessity to earn a living"

I am not so sure that my following post is truly a sweeping statement either.

From my experience, those retired Brits that arrive here with little or no French language, rarely if ever advance their spoken French much further. It is certainly not a sweeping statement, more fact actually, that learning becomes a lot harder after a certain age. Learning a language almost from scratch, has to be an extremely difficult thing to do at 60/65 years of age. It is of course difficult enough at any age but.....!!

We have known many retired folks who do go to French lessons but for the most part, it never gets to anything approaching any kind of fluency but some we have known, do learn sufficient to communicate with their neighbours to a very "shallow" limit but it is something and better than not trying at all. It is not enough to quell their desire to "chat" at a higher plain about everyday matters though.

And that surely is the top reason as to why many Brits (I do not make us out to be so very different either) wish to seek each other out. Troisième age brings its own varied problems and I am sure one feels more secure among people who can understand their every word and that can also be attached to any age group I guess.

I do wonder sometimes about why some go for these classes. They go along mostly with other Brits and try to learn the language but then some don't go out to speak their new found words and sentences on the locals, which really will help to improve their French, then it might only have been about meeting fellow Brits at the classroom in the first place, now there's a thought............

[Miki]

Richard, to get back to your original posting :

"...Please could you tell me if you work, on a daily basis, in a French company with French people or have most of you got Gites, B&B, or drive for a living?"

We work for ourselves with a B&B and another little company that we have run for nearly 10 years now.

"How intergrated are you with your French neighbours do you have the same level of freindship with them as you might have if you still lived in England"

Well we know and speak regularly to all in close proximity to us. We know many faces in the village and meet several during fetes for 3 different villages. "History" mostly gives one your true friends, those from your childhood, old school chums, a work mate whose family have become great friends over the years. That is difficult to achieve here for the majority of us. Integrated, well perhaps someone can enlighten us all to that ? I cannot find, what I would call the real meaning of integration

"Do you find that you tend to cluster together in little English speaking enclaves?"

For many, more like flipping large clusters

Yes, it is a natural happening all over the world, that people of a mutual tongue do try to seek each other out. Personally I think that our mix has varied as to where we have lived. We had a lovely set of friends in the Dordogne, varied and mixed, sometimes all together and another time just us Brits would go for a meal or day out. In Provence, around Manosque, there was only one other couple who thought their proverbial did not "pong", so we had a mutual swerve there !

So all our "friends" there were French speakers or some who spoke good English that wanted to practice it, so we got our fill of English with them but they had never even heard of Chelsea FC so they weren't much good

Here in Brittany, again it is a mix of folks but certainly once again, no enclave for us, not a belittling statement, just that as a friend once said in the Dordogne, "If you put all us Brits in a pub in the UK, we wouldn't even speak to each other"

It is circumstance is it not, that makes us find friends here and we do the best we can with what we find ? I am slightly rather tongue in cheek about this but have spoken with our "friends" and so they know what I am thinking

[Battypuss]

The only time I speak English (in person) is to the children. They answer in French...I have not met one single person of my age (46) who has made more than a passing attempt at learning French; I was made to attend classes by the ANPE and found the majority of English people there to be totally deaf. The Arabians, the Scandinavians and the Germans listened and did their homwork assiduously. I got********d out on week six and offered a job, so I have no idea of the end result. But upon that experience and many others over 13 years, I would agree that most Brits stick together like superglue given half a chance.

 

I come here to try and help people because I have been here longer than some and climbed the ropes, not because I want to cause mutiny in the ranks or cast aspersions.

[Tresco]

How intergrated are you with your French neighbours do you have the same level of freindship with them as you might have if you still lived in England?

We see them about the same amount as we did neighbours in England. There, we would see neighbours in the morning, evening, and at weekends. We didn't socialise with them though, just chats over the fence etc. Here, because we don't go out to work, and they are all farmers, they are round and about from time to time, and we are out in the garden, so we see them then. I spend half my life waving at tractors. We visit a couple of people in the village and they visit us, for aperos, vegetable/seed/cutting swops.

Not working, and having no children here I think limits the chances for interaction greatly. We joined a club in the village straight away so we go to nearly all the events organised. MOH got himself elected onto the commitee a few weeks ago - I don't think it means we are integrated, I think it means they were desperate!

I too really don't know how I would define integration. I think we are accepted/tolerated. Which brings us on to....

Do you find that you tend to cluster together in little english speaking enclaves?

No, I don't. Until recently I was unaware just how many English families there were within say a square kilometre. Apparently there are some English people near here who do all 'stick together' noticeably. My neighbour commented on it quite negatively. We then spent a giggly hour searching for English names in the phone book, but there is no way we would seek them out, just because they are English. As someone else said, we have enough English friends in England, and we are lucky in that we know someone not too far away who has known MOH's family since before he was born.

I think it is perfectly understandable that some people do 'cluster' especially if they happen to have moved to an area where there are quite a few English. I sometimes long for the kind of idiot conversation you can only have with someone from the same country - for me that would be things like 'what was the old 'Match of the Day' music?', remembering school and school rivalries, daft stuff really, the kind of conversation that comes about most naturally when you are with family, old friends, people you share a history with. Sometimes coming on this forum partially satisfies that need (Miki singing Blue is the Colour, TU's occasional favourite sweetie comments, even outcasts Victor Meldrew moments)

 

 

[zeb]

Well, I fall into the catagory of working soley for British customers. However, that isn't by choice as, when I used to advertise, it was in French and English. I got a phone call once about work from a French guy who put the phone down as soon as he realised we were not French and I have done one job a couple of years back for an elderly French woman but have since noticed that one of her neighbours does that (annual) job now. So what do you make of that?

Like Tresco I'm not really sure what integration means. We talk about anything and everything with our French neighbours who we are much closer to us than our neighbours back in the UK. We eat with them regularly and can all now laugh at each others jokes and about French/English life without upsetting or offending anyone. We wave at the tractor drivers, the bin man is really friendly (!), and I use our village boulangerie and Post Office regularly. I've been in a dance group here and we go to the local reading group. I've been on anti war demos here so have made political aquaintances but we will always be English and therefore regarded as outsiders, like our neighbours who moved here from Amiens 25 years ago.

After being here for three years we both speak passable French but why would I want to "intergrate" any more than I did in the UK? There is a very pushy Brit woman in the village whom our neighbours laugh about - she cycled around the commune when she first moved in introducing herself to every French person here telling them all that they were welcome to go to her for counselling at any time (!) and then when she had a private do in the salle de fetes invited only English! Strange..

As to Brit enclaves, I think that is inevitable due, as others have said, to the language barrier and the difficulty in learning a new language adequately enough to hold a normal, natural conversation with folks. We all need that from time to time and isn't that why we all use this forum?

[opas]

I don`t work and also do not live in an enclave of brits, I know of 3 english families to speak to here in France, one lives a car sick drive away in the Aude,one is a holiday home owner in our village(good for book swaps) and the other lives next door but one......They don`t speak to me because I insisted on speaking in French to them at the new year bash at the maire, and the hubby of the duo speaks or chooses not to speak any French after 2 years here.....He is one of those people who thinks that if he shouts louder at the builder doing work on his house then the builder will understand English eventually! my French is rusty but can still have a belly laugh with my neighbours ranging in ages from young mums young enough to be my daughters to the old man across the street with a twinkle in his eye Mrs O

[Boghound]

[quote]I think you have to be careful when defining a forum member. I am retired and a part-timer. Our house is only used by us, even our family don't visit unless we are there even though they could. So fa...[/quote]

How can you be retired and a part-timer? I would have thought you are either one or the other....or am I getting to be a bit like your friend Dick!

[letrangere]

As to Brit enclaves, I think that is inevitable due, as others have said, to the language barrier and the difficulty in learning a new language adequately enough to hold a normal, natural conversation with folks. We all need that from time to time and isn't that why we all use this forum?

I agree Zeb.  No matter where you go in the world you tend to find the British expats congregating in one particular part of town, it's not something that's unique to France, Spain or Italy.  And look at other nationalities living abroad such as Aussies, South Africans, etc. in London, they all tend to concentrate in a certain area.  And it's very understandable in France for many Brits are attracted by similar things, ie a certain type of countryside (which presumably attracted initial settlers to the Dordogne), or the climate (South of France), or accessibilty to UK (Normandy), old stone houses and more recently access to a particular airport, etc.  And no matter how good your French is or how many French friends you have, surely the more Brits there are around the better chance you have of finding a kindred spirit who shares your culture, background, sense of humour and speaks your own language?  M

[SaligoBay]

Please could you tell me if you work, on a daily basis, in a French company

Yes!!!!!

with French people

Oui!!!!!

How intergrated are you with your French neighbours do you have the same level of freindship with them as you might have if you still lived in England?

Inter-grated?  I suppose so, in the sense that we're all a bit mixed up.   Previous neighbours were better, because there weren't all these silly high hedges and high walls between us.   We moved 500m up the road, and the hedges and walls make it a bit more "English".

Do you find that you tend to cluster together in little english speaking enclaves?

It's hard to cluster alone.   I talk to my husband sometimes, nag the Boy to tidy up, and now and again I wander along to the Saturday market and if I'm lucky, I get to bump into the odd forum member.

[Russethouse]

>>>How can you be retired and a part-timer? I would have thought you are either one or the other....or am I getting to be a bit like your friend Dick<<<

Its not obligatory to move to France full time once you have retired yet is it ??? (hey - perhaps Tony Blair should put it in the manifesto !!)

[Richard-R]

It all depend on you. We are on hello'ing terms and the odd chat with people in our village, but have good friends now in both Narbonne and Perpignan, These people we have more in common with. The art's, night life ect and i teach fenching for free at a local sports centre. Since living here 2 years we have nort spoken to a British person( well once). We have never worried about fitting in. People have to take us, has they find us( drunk, outside a night club's the norm, lol). The fact that we do not have loads of Brits visiting us in our village, at first seemed odd to the locals. Now they know we have friends from the cities near us and others popping up from Spain, Italy ect they are more relaxed with us.

[flower]

We have been her for 16 months now and would say that although much of our work is for English people, but not all, we are steadily integrating.

We all had french lessons before moving here, including our children ages 5 and 3, so that we could at least be able to find our feet without too much help and introduce ourselves to our neighbours. We have certainly not gone looking for English friends, though we do have a few that we have made purely through our work and the children's school. We do make an effort to attend many of the local events which always pleases the locals who know us.

Over the last few months, as my french has improved, I have been able to chat to more of the other french mums at the school and have enjoyed many invites to their homes with the children. I have been working really hard at the language and to integrate and I think it has been appreciated as several of my new found french neighbours and friends have commented on my progress and the fact that so many of the English don't make much of an effort. I think having young children makes a big difference though - for their sakes I don't want to still be at a 'passable' level in a few years time. I feel that to push myself now will help them to be able to mix socially and of course I need to be able to understand homework! Their french is coming along brilliantly so the language for them isn't a problem but I need to know I'm doing my best for them! Thanks to the children, I feel we have a much better chance of truley integrating than many just because of the regular contact and already having something in common, but all it really takes is a wish to make the effort, a bit of cake baking and lots of tractor waving.

[Mpprh]

The charming & delightful wife of M le Maire always gives me the 3X kiss.

Not sure if she does this to all the electorate, or she finds me integrated ?

Peter