Why did you leave England?

[Cjb]

A brief afterthought: Do we get the press we deserve our are we mere minions that succumb to its evil influences??

[Miki]

Papers sell simply on the strength of what people want to read, we have little choice but to buy or not to buy the paper of our choice ! Sure, therefore in that respect, we must get the press we deserve but again, the choice is ours on what to buy, or read. To judge those that read what we don't, is to make possible false judgement on 100% of the readership, can we all know that many people ?

We, from our own personal stand point, can dismiss any paper as crass and below our "normal" reading standards but we must not think that the people that read the red tops, know less than us.

For instance, a good friend of mine could do the Times crossword before my boiled eggs were ready for breakfast but would read the Mirror on the way to work. He went on to become an "infamous lecturer" at the LSE during the late 60's and was as clever and as astute a person as I have ever met in my life !

Perhaps a case of, you are, who you are, not what you read ? Rather than, you are what you read ?

I stopped my occasional reading of the Sun (soccer mainly but as they say in the building trade about the more "serious" non tabloid Daily's, No T I T, No comment) in respect of all the scousers lost in the Hillsborough disaster and the disgusting way the Sun reported the tragedy in 1989, followed up some 15 years later by an equally blood curdling piece by The Spectator, Boris made a public apology of course but as in the Sun's case,the damage was done and no apology was going to correct the harm that so very many people had been inflicted with. Look at the sales of the Sun in Liverpool, still well down on 1989 figures and now the Spectator has suffered as well.

[0BRIAN WOODHEADI,m here in franceddMMyyyy0Falseen-USI,m here in franceTrue]

To equate Boris and the sun as one and the same is tosh,Boris hit a raw nerve with people from liverpool but many people knew what he meant,hillsbro..well police where there.....

ps how many copies of the spectator where sold in that town before Boris added his bit?not many

 

[Miki]

[quote]To equate Boris and the sun as one and the same is tosh,Boris hit a raw nerve with people from liverpool but many people knew what he meant,hillsbro..well police where there..... ps how many copies ...[/quote]

Same principle and same argument. I suppose you would not see it as such, if God forbid, one of your nippers was in the crowd on that day and then to be told it was all an over reaction as normal, by Liverpool people to make such an outcry.

The stupid oaf went down there to apologise after he once again put his size 14 foot in it as normal.

Why shouldn't the Spectator be read by many in Liverpool outie or do you think they are all like you and Brookside down that way ?

"...well police where there" What the heck is that meant to say ? Anyone know.

[letrangere]

Whatever one thinks of the Sun newspaper, it would only be a very foolish person that would try to deny its power and influence in the UK

Absolutely, Chris.  The support it gave to the Conservatives almost certainly helped Thatcher win in '79 and I was reading somewhere yesterday - Spectator, I think(!) - that the sun's editor took the credit for Major's surprise win in '92 and came up with an unforgetable headline, "It was the Sun wot won it".

But doesn't anyone read French newspapers?  I wasn't joking when I suggested reading le Monde ou Liberation.  Or local newspapers or even the French tabloids?  And how about, what is it, l'Equipe?  That pink thing, lots of sporty people out there, doesn't anyone read that?

M

[zeb]

[quote]Whatever one thinks of the Sun newspaper, it would only be a very foolish person that would try to deny its power and influence in the UK Absolutely, Chris. The support it gave to the Conservative...[/quote]

Charente Libre is delivered every day at 6am - we are woken by the dogs barking - and Le Monde on Saturdays (excellent supplement).

Coo.....do I get a brownie point?

[SaligoBay]

Midi Libre is the most widely-read down south here.

Margaret, I think the French nationals have the lowest readership numbers in Europe.   They're just too dull, sensible, and establishment-supporting.   And deffo not enough pictures!

[Miki]

[quote]Charente Libre is delivered every day at 6am - we are woken by the dogs barking - and Le Monde on Saturdays (excellent supplement). Coo.....do I get a brownie point?[/quote]

Only if you can actually read it zeb, in which case Angleterre..........dix points

[Miki]

MW said "....And how about, what is it, l'Equipe? That pink thing, lots of sporty people out there, doesn't anyone read that?.."

Yes Margaret, I do but usually only on Mondays, so as to get the full weekend sports stories. A Belgian friend of ours worked for them as a roving freelance reporter, he ended up in Provence where he would report on things as diverse as, Kayaaking (sp)Petanque (Lyonnaise as well well as the more normal boules, soccer and many other sports (by the way he is recognised as being one of the top 3 statisticians of soccer in Europe but sadly perhaps, he had to leave the sunny south some time ago and he now works for La Meuse in Belgium)

During the week I simply go online to http://www.lequipe.fr/ to read it, especially if I want to see a French slant on an event.

[Cjb]

I read the Nice Matin, Le Figaro and Aujourd-hui en France. Liberation - I remember reading the communist manifesto as a student but that's as far as it goes. I find some of the magazines like Courrier International, Le Nouvel Observateur and Le Point to be far more interesting than the daily papers.

I started off reading those papers that were further to the left until a little experience of living here made me realise that my ideas of socialism had little to do with those reflected by the french left.

Despite knocking the french daily press I do find the quality of their documentaries to be better than what's on offer in the UK (gardening, cooking, DIY and buying houses in France), which takes me back to my original point about declining standards in investigative journalism in the UK.

BTW, this has nothing whatsoever with my reasons for leaving the UK. As far as I'm concerned the UK government is doing a far better job than their french counterparts. I appreciate all is not perfect with the Blair government but then again the UK doesn't have 3 million unemployed and a balance of payments deficit that blatantly flouts EU rules.

For those that claim that moving to France has enabled them to escape the evils of the UK, I expect that they're forgetting that in many cases it is the success of the UK economy that has allowed them such a luxury, whilst many very qualified french people have difficulty earning more than the SMIC (regardless of their drive and ambition), let alone investing in property.

[Lesbatees]

My hatred of the Sun is not based on any value judgement about the intelligence of the people who read it. As I said in my previous posting, the reason I detest the Sun is the fact that just when you think its management can go no lower they surprise you.

The scum (and in my view there's no other word for them) who run that paper have damaged lives. I'm not talking about celebrities (who by virtue of the fact they put themselves in the public eye have to accept they are going to be targeted, and usually have access to a phlanx of lawyers to hit back) but ordinary people whose only crime was being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Can anyone really justify the Sun's publication of the photograph of that poor girl who was raped in the early 90s, along with a story that made it quite clear to anyone who knew her even remotely exactly who she was? To his credit, Kelvin McKenzie didn't even try. At least he isn't a hypocrite, but that's really all you can say for him.

Val

[0BRIAN WOODHEADI,m here in franceddMMyyyy0Falseen-USI,m here in franceTrue]

[quote]I read the Nice Matin, Le Figaro and Aujourd-hui en France. Liberation - I remember reading the communist manifesto as a student but that's as far as it goes. I find some of the magazines like Courrie...[/quote]

"Whilst many very qualified french people have difficulty earning more than the SIMC..."so what is your point?The over qualified people you refer to knew this before they went on taking the route they did.Unlike the UK where people go on to further education in the hope that when the state has paid for their further education it will give them an automatic right to a well paid job and an enhanced live style,what a shame it does not due to the fact there are far to many grads chasing to few"good" jobs,over supply and all that drives down the value,maybe it,s the same in france??

[Cjb]

On average grads in the UK earn 50% more than non-grads, so it would seem that you're talking out of something other than your mouth, Outie. This was the reason given for implementing tuition fees!! In France you're nothing without qualifications so it would seem that you're wrong on both counts!!

[Teamedup]

Well just my opinion, but I really appreciated cjb's post on the previous page. 

[0BRIAN WOODHEADI,m here in franceddMMyyyy0Falseen-USI,m here in franceTrue]

Cjd says that the over qualified french are on the SMIC which is close to the minimum wage,and then goes on to say that any one without qualifications are nothing although they are earning the same money.

The bit that would make anyone laugh is when he says that grads earn 50% more than anyone elsewithout a degree.At least his sprog will grow up with a sense of humour.

 

[Cjb]

O.K. Outie, here it is for you in print. It would seem that it's a little less than 50%, but not much less. You seem to have some bizarre idea that graduates merely remain in the world of academia and that they serve no real purpose in life. Most mature adults view education as something not to be missed out on, you don't appear to have reached that level of maturity yet.

People who have degrees earn nearly £15,000 a year more on average than those who do not, latest figures suggest.

There are also signs that the graduate recruitment market is picking up again.

While still in their 20s, graduates are on average more than £6,000 a year ahead of people who did not go to university, according to the latest Graduate Market Trends report from the Careers Services Unit.

The "extra earning power" argument is one of the main ways ministers have sought to try to persuade more young people from poorer backgrounds to go into higher education.

By the time they are in their 40s - those who graduated in the 1980s - they are averaging £34,958 while those without degrees are on £20,400 - a difference of £14,558.

A separate survey of small and medium sized companies showed that job vacancies for graduates were picking up again, after the downturn following the 11 September terrorist attacks.

BBC News Website

[Tresco]

Outcast, I am so intigued by you. You seem to hold structured eduation as having no value whatsoever. It does not seem to matter to you whether you get your education 5 to 16 or later, in fact I have seen you  dismiss the idea of people getting a bit of ed. later in life.

You seem to really hate teachers. In fact, that seems to be your main concern here, it's your main point of focus, hating teachers.

Tell me you didn't leave England because you hate all teachers? 

Or, alternatively, tell me something positive that you left England to come here for. Go on, I dare ya!

tresco

[0BRIAN WOODHEADI,m here in franceddMMyyyy0Falseen-USI,m here in franceTrue]

Cjd,you have made my point for me,the fact that grads earn more than people without degrees as you posted under lines the case for people to pay for their own education and not the state funding them.Anyone who whats to go on to reach for a degree should be able to,BUT they should pay for it themselves.The open uni is a great idea and allows access to higher education for a lot of people outside of mainstream formal education.

 

[Boghound]

The greatest mistakes the British made was educating the lower classes and giving women the vote...they both seem to get above their "stations"....and devalue degrees to the extent that they are worthless...I had a graduate working for me...actually asking how to use a broom & does it come with a manual. 

[Tresco]

actually asking how to use a broom & does it come with a manual. 

When I look at the way MOH wields a broom, it has occurred to me that a simple manual would be a VERY good idea. Trying to teach a grown man to sweep up is harder than trying to teach your OH to drive, and the cause of just as many arguments

tresco

[Iceni]

Many teachers used to be pulled from industry and business. It did not matter if they did not have a degree but a proven track record in their chosen field was the main perogative for them to undertake teacher training. Maths teachers who actually could do maths etc. There are many head teachers - I think the one that recently retired from Westminster school was one, who would not now be allowed to teach anything as they don't have a degree - and that degree can be in anything, media for example. I know of people who have been turned down for math teacher training for stupid reasons because they could not put a tick in a box - they are math naturals and it is not as if there is a surplus of math teachers.

University lecturers never used to have to have a teaching qualification, that still may be true. Many of them left school, went to Uni and then taught. No real background in anything but their one subject. If you want to see a load of real English eccentrics, go to any large university and look at the older teaching staff.

Now with the shortage of good teachers, unless you have a degree in gardening you cannot teach business studies even if you are the owner and builder of a million pound business.

There are many graduates in the UK without jobs - accountants and solicitors have also been having a hard time. Perhaps that should read - graduates IN JOBS earn 50% more etc.

Mind you, if you take a real balance of total earnings, I am sure that the many Richard Branson's, Elton John's and all the other high earners who never entered a uni portal as they were following other more lucrative methods of earning money would make it far less than 50%.

I used to teach and to be honest the UK has the education it deserves.

[Cjb]

Come on let's get back to the original post. I hold my hands up and admit to taking the bait from Outie, but let's not let this descend into another of Outie's let's knock teachers and graduates rants.

Despite loathing the man, I'm currently reading Piers Morgan's autobiography. I appreciate that this means lining this man's pockets, but then again we can't go through life only reading about those people that we like.

As I stated before, I never really intended to ESCAPE from England, and I made the move at a fairly young age (late 20's). Had it not been for me having a French wife, I don't think I'd ever have moved to France, but saying that I feel that I've made 2 good choices with regard to the wife and moving here.

The best part for me is the adventure. In England I loved London as nearly all of my friends came from somewhere else: Australia, New Zealand, France, South Africa, Sri Lanka etc... which allowed me to escape the tedium of the village life where I'd been brought up. Living in France enables me to converse in a different language and learn about a culture that is very different to my own. To add to this the Côte D'Azur is a very international region, and during my time studying French I made friends from Japan, Sweden, Switzerland, Mexico, Taiwan etc...

For me it's all about the adventure, about being somewhere new and the enjoyment of being the outsider. Had I not been born in England, I'm sure England would have been equally appealing to me. Only the other day my wife (who spent 4 1/2 years in England) told me that she sometimes misses England and the English. She had her adventure in England and now I'm having mine HERE IN FRANCE!

 

[Battypuss]

Over the years, I have lived in West Africa, Scandinavia, Turkey and Greece, with brief spell in the UK. I found it difficult to adjust to the UK! I could have gone anywhere really, I suppose with only one daughter but ex-husband insisted that it had to be somewhere near England so that he could visit his parents. The fact that bothe were long dead made not of difference...so France it was. Quite happy with the decision, then and now, all three daughters like it too. Husband did not and decamped!

[Val_2]

We already had a home here for five years before we,well it was me who really pushed the idea,left the UK for good. I can honestly say that I didn't want to turn into either my parents(still alive) or my in-laws (before they both died some years earlier),that is,never going anywhere,having the same regimented lifestyle week in and week out and just generally existing in front of the TV or doing the shopping once a week.

I yearned for the village life that I grew up in until the nearest town gradually swallowed it all up in the mid 1980's and there was nothing left except yuppies pushing up prices and council estates. Here I have my dream and if I didn't know better,my family feels exactly the same way. We lived in fear daily back in the UK from the local vandals and burglars of which the police took no notice of and of shootings and stabbings amongst the ever-increasing asian community which was right on our doorstep. The only way we would ever go back there to visit now is through a family bereavement,this is our home and we plan to live out our lives here along with hopefully another generation of anglo-french children one day.

[Cjb]

Perhaps I'm wrong, but haven't many people made the move for financial reasons e.g. it's possible to earn good salaries in the UK, with which you can buy a house, which when sold, will enable you to buy something beyond your dreams in France. I know we hear the countless wonderful reasons for living in France, but call me a cynic, aren't these sometimes used to cover up for more basic reasons??

How many people in their twenties are making the move to France? It seems to me that people of this age are making the move in the opposite direction.

• By all means knock the UK, but surely it's thanks to the UK system that so many Brits can make their "Dream Move" to France. Discuss