London attacks

[RayB]

[quote]Put it another way - its gives rise to more questions than it answers.[/quote]

**Put it another way - its gives rise to more questions than it answers.**

What are these questions? They could be interesting to discuss.

[JohnM]

OK, well the question which sprang to my mind is

"Why on earth have they been stopped from going into London?" About 50 (50 too many) people have lost their lives and 700 (700 too many) have been injured, but that is a relatively small number compared to the number of people in London. The chance of being killed or injured is still very low. Now you have said that they still go into far more dangerous places, it doesn't make me want to ask more questions, but it does make me ask the same question with even more exasperation in my voice.

In my mind the decision is as good as turning to the terrorist and saying "Yep, we sure are scared of you and we will do anything you say". Me? I went to London yesterday and I used the tube more than I usually do.

Fanatics, don't you just hate them, that's all fanatics, not just religious ones (although I do think this is more about political ambition than a true religious cause).

 

[Lavie]

"Whilst you might disagree with whom he talks to, I truly believe he should be able to speak with whom he wishes to. If talking with anyone can bring about understanding, so much the better, where else are we going to find out how others “tick” ? I find it very much OTT to simply say “ who he sometimes keeps company with” makes it sound like a night out with the boys or indeed, a red top headline."

He can speak to whoever he wishes in his private life but not in public when he is the Mayor representing London and its people. The event of last year at City Hall with extremist Muslim cleric Dr Yusuf al-Qaradawi (July 2004) was widely reported on by pretty much every paper and TV station - not just red top headlines to which you refer. Unsurprisingly, it raised a lot of issues with London's diverse communities as well - but he has so far refused to meet any of their leaders to discuss their concerns. Being such a major and widely reported event hardly makes it a 'night out with the boys or indeed, a red top headline'.

I can only assume you were't reading/watching the news that week otherwise you would be only too aware of the outcry the event caused.

[Teamedup]

The problem was that GW Bush said that americans stood side by side with Londoners the other day. Then we hear that military personnel are banned form inside the M25. Which was OK maybe on Friday as people were being recommended to stay out of inner London then, but by Saturday that ban should have been lifted and has only been so today Tuesday.

A right royal cock up really. And someone I'm sure will be hauled over the coals about this.

[RayB]

[quote]OK, well the question which sprang to my mind is "Why on earth have they been stopped from going into London?" About 50 (50 too many) people have lost their lives and 700 (700 too many) have been inj...[/quote]

**"Why on earth have they been stopped from going into London?"**

I have no idea and I think that it was stupid. Some commander somewhere was having a bad hair-day, perhaps.

**In my mind the decision is as good as turning to the terrorist and saying "Yep, we sure are scared of you and we will do anything you say".**

I think that is a bit of a 'stretch'.

**Me? I went to London yesterday and I used the tube more than I usually do.**

If it made you feel better . . . good for you. Why not?

[RayB]

[quote]The problem was that GW Bush said that americans stood side by side with Londoners the other day. Then we hear that military personnel are banned form inside the M25. Which was OK maybe on Friday as p...[/quote]

**A right royal cock up really. And someone I'm sure will be hauled over the coals about this.**

I am reminded of the quote - 'There is nothing in the world that is so small that it can't be blown out of proportion!'.

[JohnM]

Ray

I think one of us has missed the point here.

I was replying to your message which said (something like) "What questions are being asked" as if you didn't comprehend that anyone could possibly be questioning the US forces.

We'll have to disagree to agree on whether it is a stretch or not. On hearing that I think that the terrorists will consider that they have a victory and it will encourage them to do more.

Nope, it didn't make me feel better, but it didn't make me feel worse either. I included that because I imagined that some bright spark would suggest that, from the safety of my home, I was advocating that people should to London, but wouldn't do the same myself. I actually wanted to avoid a subsequent "Nar nar ne nar nar, I've already done it". (But now I've ended up doing just that).

 

[RayB]

[quote]Ray I think one of us has missed the point here. I was replying to your message which said (something like) "What questions are being asked" as if you didn't comprehend that anyone could possibly be...[/quote]

**We'll have to disagree to agree on whether it is a stretch or not. On hearing that I think that the terrorists will consider that they have a victory and it will encourage them to do more.**

I acknowledge your opinion, John. We have both had our say. That is enough for me.

[Miki]

"......He can speak to whoever he wishes in his private life but not in public when he is the Mayor representing London and its people......"

Wonders will never cease, as me Granny used to say ! The peoples are extremely varied and under that criteria, he would meet with no one, if that kind of mentality was allowed.

If the Mayor of London cannot talk to whoever he feels the need to then god help us all. It IS because of his position that he feels he does need to talk to one and all. He cannot be intimidated by any one group for fear of favouritism to another. He has a huge multicultural society within the London boundaries, so naturally and properly he needs to know how each group feel about this that and how that group fits in with it all. Simple politics if he didn’t know any of this, how the hell can he speak for London ?

I certainly do not agree with Dr Yusuf al- Qaradawi and his views, few people in the world would and perhaps Mr Livingstone would have been better off not talking with him but I am sure he now has a much clearer view of the man and his thoughts, than millions of Britons will ever know. Surely that can only be a good thing ? So he has upset some groups, he will always upset one group or another whatever he does, how lucky Britain is to have such a multiracial system. I think that should mean then, that all groups must realise, certain leaders must be allowed to speak with whom they like and not be dissuaded by the likes or dislikes of other minorities. We have far too many groups now, that want only their beliefs to be held and then force it on the rest of the British population.

[Deimos]

RayB: Are you by any chance an American (for from the US). The tone of your posts suggests to me that you may be. When people suggest “begs questions” to “pursue”. You seem defensive of the US position, suggesting that people have “blown the matter out of proportion”. As somebody has already commented, whilst this attack is quite horrific, Railtrack have managed worse over the years. US commanders are presumable appointed based on their ability to make decisions. I would be quite horrified to believe that US commanders can have “bad hair days” when so many lives (both under their command and e.g. Iraq civilians).

I agree with the comment about the US command to stay outside the M25 being “giving in to the terrorists”. As many have commented, they (terrorists) win when they disrupt our lives. When people are too scared to e.g. visit London (spending money and keeping business going). This is exactly what the US have done (at least that is how I see it). All those working in London who have resolutely continues their normal lives (almost certainly with difficulty) are defeating the terrorists – the US troops who are told to stay out of M25 have allowed the terrorists to win.

(Personal opinion not intended to offend)

Ian

[Russethouse]

I think was singularly unfortunate that this order was ever given (surely individual members of the US armed forces are sensible enough to take reasonable precautions without being ordered to do so)and even more unfortunate that it was not withdrawn at the earliest possible opportunity, especially considering the number of WW2 veterans that saw fit to turn up as planned on Sunday to mark the end of the war.

[Deimos]

Another aspect I find disappointing is the unjustifiable reaction that then follows (from some) against ethnic and religious groups (who publicly denounce such acts) For example, a comment from another forum (quote) “… I know it's irrational, but every time I see an Arab looking person with a black beard, I feel revulsion.”.

[Deimos]

I see the ban on US forces entering inside the M25 has now been lifted. British police, politicians and tourism officials were critical of the US ban, but I see it reported that John Reid (Defence Secretary) thought the ban “perfectly sensible”. However, the Conservative MP Andrew Robathan condemned the ban, saying: "I would have hoped our American allies could show a little more courage”

(http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,16132,1526894,00.html?gusrc=rss).

Ian

[WJT]

John Reid clearly said the announcement from the US government was made on FRIDAY when everyone was told to stay away from London if at all possible. Another example of the press on such matters. No matter what is said now, those that choose to believe this story will continue to try and cause a rift.

[Davies]

"John Reid clearly said the announcement from the US government was made on FRIDAY when everyone was told to stay away from London if at all possible. Another example of the press on such matters. No matter what is said now, those that choose to believe this story will continue to try and cause a rift"

  Couldn't agree more, a non-story whipped up by the media. A military commander's responsibilities are different to those who quite rightly, wanted to get London back to normal.

   If (heaven forbid) the bombs had exploded in Cologne or Dusseldorf, the Commander, British Forces Germany would have issued almost exactly the same instruction.

 

[RayB]

[quote]John Reid clearly said the announcement from the US government was made on FRIDAY when everyone was told to stay away from London if at all possible. Another example of the press on such matters. No m...[/quote]

** Another example of the press on such matters. No matter what is said now, those that choose to believe this story will continue to try and cause a rift**

The real, I mean the REAL, story is that we didn't want to be blamed for any follow-on activity or trying to 'occupy' London. We are already blamed for everything from hangnails on up. Sigh!!

If you think that this is silly, read some of the 'serious' comments in the press.

[cyclebum]

If one were to take this forum as an example of a snipet of Britain then one could draw the conclusion that the 'terrorists' have made further progress in their aimes. This unspeakable act of bloodshed has bought thoughts of fear, revulsion and as planned, division as seen by the sometimes slightly heated exchanges between some posters. We the people will now look to our fine speach making leaders for safer streets, tighter security, more safeguards etc... In other words we will welcome more CCTV. We will readily accept the army patrolling our streets. Perhaps we will ask for our bags to be searched at every corner to show we are part of the law abiding community.And maybe the country will unite by happily adopting the ID card in the name of security. If one were to view the security alert in Birmingham as a means of assessing the effects of the London tragedy where it seemed revellers quite readily evacuated the city centre, for obvious reasons, one could look at the whole disgusting affair in a totally different light. Perhaps now if an area or town or city needs clearing for any particular purpose their will be very little objection. When I next want to join a demonstration march through town and I am refused access on the grounds of security, will I now submisivly walk away in memory of the poor people killed and injured on trains and busses? Will we all now walk away?

Our descent to a big brother 'civilisation' will not be forced upon us, It will be demanded by us, the people.

[SaligoBay]

Well, I am in awe of the progress made by the police, the forensic, everyone dealing with the aftermath of these bombs.   With all that mess and mayhem, they've managed to trace the deeds to Yorkshire.   And identifying people who barely exist any more.   I'm impressed!

To the person who cites this as a reason to leave the UK - where IS safe?    Rural France?   Maybe, but I would think rural anywhere, non?    Mortar attacks in Mortonby Pauncefoot?  Bombs on Barra?   After all, Paris has been attacked before, and if you read the French news, there are just as many loonies in France as anywhere else.   And you'd have to leave your rural haven at some point, unless you're going to become a hermit.  And that means going on French roads, which manage to kill many more people every year than any terrorists.    

Quite funny, the idea of France being on red alert.   True, there were 3 heavily-armed soldiers at Montpellier airport, but what were they doing?    Standing out in the sun chatting together, while the public wandered in and out with suitcases, rucksacks, and goodness knows what else.

Cyclebum, maybe you should get one of those gel-filled saddles for comfort.  You'll feel so much better, I promise you! 

        

[Deimos]

Cyclebum: I agree with your comments about stricter “big brother controls”. After the attack, Charles Clarke admitted that ID cards would not have helped prevent the attacks. However, I see today that he is now pressing for compulsory fingerprinting of all EU citizens who already carry an ID card. It then becomes more difficult for people to argue against any “security measures” as it appears that one is trying to hinder to security forces in preventing such attacks.

I think that, if the government seeks to introduce additional security measures it is important that they justify such measures publicly rather than the “we can’t tell you why because it’s a secret” justifications we have seen in the past.

Ian

[Lavie]

"You say I am assuming things - but you weave a whole fantasy here! How do you know that no-one stood a chance? You are making it up!"

It's now been confirmed that the attacks were carried out by suicide bombers who were UK citizens.

So tragically my theory in previous posts of them giving their victims precious little time to escape has been proved correct.

It is indeed a shocking change of tactics.

[Renaud]

Ho hum, I normally enjoy Miki and his heartfelt and usually amusing posts, but if I am on the other side of a divide here, so be it. Still this forum is a place that people can discuss and debate in a peaceful way and that is a very civilised thing. (I miss Outcast though, as there was an energy and passion - and often an original point of view - to his posts, though he got too nasty and personal towards the end).

 

I loath the IRA, as I do Al-Qaeda, and the ‘useful idiots’ (Lenin’s description) who try to justify or gloss over their murders. To return to Ken Livingstone, my problem with him dates back to the mid 70s when the IRA were bombing both Northern Ireland and the UK.

 

At that time the government were trying to deny them the 'oxygen of publicity' but Ken Livingstone was putting together his GLC ‘rainbow coalition’ and seeking the Irish vote by sucking up to the IRA, my low opinion of him dates from that point. To represent his taking Gerry Adams and the press on riverboat rides on the Thames, as starting a meaningful negotiation towards peace talks is rewriting history in a big way. This was a decade before John Major managed to get a meaningful dialogue going.

 

Miki says “Is that the best you can say for someone the Londoners have voted in as Mayor, not only as a Labour candidate but as an Independent and is highly rated by many Londoners for speaking out for London and not cow tailing to any one else in his quest for what he believes to be best for London. He is well supported by his fellow Londoners, perhaps not by you but by many others” Well yes, that is the best I can say for the weasel-like fellow. Margaret Thatcher was also elected several times, she did what she believed in and was well supported by many. So does this put her beyond Miki’s criticism? - Somehow I doubt it. By the by, I am not an entirely uncritical admirer of her either.

 

I certainly would remember a statement from Ken Livingstone if it was an outright condemnation of the murderous IRA. As previously stated I bet that any statement by him about the IRA violence is equivocated by a pious condemnation of the RUC and the Army who had the thankless task of protecting us all.

 

It is true that on some some topics I regard the Daily Mail as dangerously pink, not that I read it. Also true that I do not read the French papers even up-side down - I thought that only newsagents did that.

 

My last post on this subject as I am fortunate to have a life to get on with.

[Renaud]

OK, another posting, but only to say that the last line of my post above was not meant to be a dig at Miki or anybody, just I have spent too much time on this recently.

[RayB]

[quote]Ho hum, I normally enjoy Miki and his heartfelt and usually amusing posts, but if I am on the other side of a divide here, so be it. Still this forum is a place that people can discuss and debate in a...[/quote]

**My last post on this subject as I am fortunate to have a life to get on with.**

Count me among you, Renaud.

[Miki]

[quote]**My last post on this subject as I am fortunate to have a life to get on with.**Count me among you, Renaud.[/quote]

I am not going to agree with you Renaud as I feel Ken Livingstone is a caring politician but c'st la vie. Thatcher, well I once said she had a nice handbag or did I , probably not

Ray, I know you are American (how did I guess that, well..) but even then, what does :

"Count me among you, Renaud"

You have often asked for clarification and now may I ask you what that actually means, is it Americanese speak ?

And Renaud, yes you have a life, like anyone living and breathing has. What I think you mean is probably, that you actually feel you are above this site and that there are so many others that clamour for your "life" and we should be grateful for what contributions you offer. So on behalf of others, thanks, we, or at least, I look forward to getting more of your so valuable time when you can indeed spare it...and Oh yes, same for you Ray.......if what you say is what I think it is but until clarification I am only guessing

[Renaud]

OK, last time on this topic. I had tried to explain that I was not having a dig at anyone. I wanted to stop posting because I felt that the kind of posting ping pong Miki and I were engaged in could have stretched on to infinity without ever touching. Someone has to say stop.

I am fortunate to have a life because I had a meeting out of London last Thursday morning, otherwise I would have taken the Hammersmith and City line through Edgeware Road, Kings Cross to Liverpool Street. To be honest I would probably have done the journey 20 minutes before the explosions, but the tube line is erratic in its timings and I could have been there. So lucky to be living and breathing.

As I mentioned earlier, my elder daughter is more fortunate as she took the day off, she would have travelled at exactly the time.

Fin