London attacks

[Tresco]

Is Vraititi in London, I thought he was in the NE of England????

The remarks Ken Livingstone made were just amazing. What a fantastic verbal response to these horrific attacks.

Thanks for posting that Dicksmith, I might have missed out on it otherwise.

[urko]

Dick

May I add my thanks for posting Ken's words.  He articulated something that no doubt many of us have been feeling.

[Dick Smith]

Absolutely, Urko.There are a lot of similar comments on the BBC website.

The impressive thing was his face - his emotions were only just under control, both anger and sorrow.

I wasn't really involved, except in seeing what was on the streets and the transport difficulties, but I feel like I've had a very long day and I want to go to bed, there are many families that will grieve into this night and many more to come after the events of today. Too many lives have been altered forever. I think Ken's words spoke to that as well, and their compatriots should stand to defend them, but not by the knee-jerk red-top simplicities we saw in the past, but by showing stoicism, solidarity and tolerance - the 'British Way' that Tony Blair spoke of. In the end we will civilise them.

[Coco]

Well he so often speaks a load of absolute rubbish but good on him.  What a terrific speech, better than President Blair could manage.  A bit like the Mayor of New York on 9/11, I don't believe he was too highly thought of at the time, but he rose to the occasion when his city was attacked and I'm glad to see that Ken has too!

Glad you got home OK Dick.  Last time I saw the BBC news they were saying that people were beginning the slow walk out of central London.  And traffic reports on the M4 were that it was busier going in to London than coming out, mainly families trying to reach stranded loved ones in London.  Hope they all met up OK.

 

[Tresco]

Tony Blair is an accomlished public speaker, but on this ocasion he was trumped by KL, it doesn't make me think less of TB at all, in fact the cynic in me thinks KL's speech was long prepared.

That makes me wonder why TB's speech wasn't similarly polished, but people tell me he was close to tears. I don't know, how would any of us do in this sort of situation? 

Either way, I thought KL's speech (as quoted by Dick) was great. I hope everyone here's friends and family are OK. I STILL can't track down one brother and sister, who live in London

[Dick Smith]

Ken's had plenty of time to think about this, knowing that it was a near-certainty that it would happen one day. But his words were correct.

According to Andrew Marr, Tony Blair was extremely upset, probably why his statement was recorded. You can't really blame him.

Sir Iqbal Sacranie, Secretary General of the Muslim Council of Great Britain, said:

"What we need to be aware is the terrorists, these evil people who have carried out this series of explosions in London, want to demoralise us as a nation and divide us as a people.

All of us must unite in helping the police to hunt these murderers down.

I think, yesterday, we celebrated as Londoners the euphoria that our great city had secured the Olympic Games.

Today, we watch aghast as we witness a series of brutal attacks upon our capital city. I think we were together in our celebrations and we must remain together in our time of crisis."

But I think it was a cheap shot, Coco, to do the 'President Blair' thing on the back of so many deaths and injuries...

[SaligoBay]

I had a day off yesterday, and found myself glued to Sky News (a rare event, given that we don't have it in France).   We were promised Blair's reaction at 11, it eventually came on at 12, and whatever anyone says, he looked extremely stressed and unhappy, and I'm sure that these events bring him no pleasure at all.

Both he and KL were fine, and gave the world the right message.

This morning, it's hard to think about all those waking up to their continuing reality of yesterday's nightmare. 

[Russethouse]

I'm no great fan of Blair as regular forum readers (esp Dick & Miki) might know, but this week he has excelled himself.

Firstly, it seems pretty clear that his support for the Olympic bid was very influential and greatly impressed the IOC and probably swung the vote the UK way.

Secondly his re action to yesterdays events was just right.I think it showed great confidence in the security services to return to London and just that simple act sent a message to the terrorists and the rest of us.

[Quillan]

IF Al-Qaeda did plant the bomb, thats a very big if and jury is still out on this at the moment, then Coco is right for it was Blair, who, against the peoples will, sent our troops in to a war that is absolutely nothing to do with us. The only reason we were brow beaten, along with other European countries, in to going by the Americans was to legitimise the war "against terror".

As for the Suns comments like "In the name of New York, Washington, Bali, Nairobi, Madrid and now London, we shall have vengeance and justice," just shows how the British gutter press are starting the hysteria running amongst the UK population. The next thing we will see is the Sun telling people to put the star of islam on all know muslim businesses and for the rest of the population to boycott them. Sounds familiar doesn't it and we are supposed to be civilised?

I can't understand Channel 4 either giving air time to people who say, and I must adlib a bit here "The hero's of jihad who magnificantly gave their life to kill the Americans, what joy it was to see those planes ripe in to the twin towers" followed by the well educated Iman who said "The young muslims have debated both at length and depth the right of suicide bombers", followed by a justification that "the koran says it is right to kill oneself whilst crossing the path of your enemy". What sort of message is this giving out and these people are resident in the UK. Why does the government just throw them out? Did they not pass a law to make racial and religious intolerance illegal?

I think the Daily Mail said something interesting "Make no mistake Britain will almost certainly have to sacrifice some of our ancient legal rights if we wish to protect our citizens." are they talking about expelling any group of people who are of the same nationality or religion as the suspect bombers, whoever they are?

All this stems from America who went on the war path, dragging us in with them, just because a couple of buildings were blown up and some people got killed. Lets not forget who had been funding Noraid and even El-Qaeda at one stage. They can't lecture the English about terrorism because they have been financing it for years. As normal in America it's OK when it happens to somebody else but when it happens to them they always over react.

One thing never published in the UK was the amount of us Falklands veterans that gave our campaign medals back when they invaded Iraq, over 70% did so in protest, not a common known fact.

As for the G8, what right do they have to hold half the world to ransom, what right does eight people have to control the world through money. They are just a group of school bullies playing with peoples lives. They know nothing about humanity.

Anyway after all that I personally am not sure it was El-Qaede, I will rather hold off until the police find out who really did do it.

(Newspaper quotes http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4662769.stm interview quotes Channel 4 news 7/7/05)

[Coco]

But I think it was a cheap shot, Coco, to do the 'President Blair' thing on the back of so many deaths and injuries...

And I think it's a cheap shot to make it look as though I'm making light of this tragic event.  If you look back over ANY posting I have ever made over the whole lifetime of this forum you will see that I have always referred to that man as President Blair.  I have never liked him and never will.  To change what I call him on this occasion would have been a little strange I think. 

[Miki]

"....To change what I call him on this occasion would have been a little strange I think."

But perhaps more respectful on this awful occasion, where I thing everyone would agree, he really did show true feelings for his fellow man, just a thought.

[Miki]

[quote]I'm no great fan of Blair as regular forum readers (esp Dick & Miki) might know, but this week he has excelled himself.Firstly, it seems pretty clear that his support for the Olympic bid was very infl...[/quote]

Nothing wrong with seeing things as they occur Gay, it's a sad day when politics blinds one from seeing the truth, something a few more of us might realise.

Both Mr Blair and Mr Livingstone were genuine in their speeches and it was etched all over their faces just how terribly saddened they were by the happenings in London. I would say also, that ALL politicians felt no less grief than the rest of us all.

One point to be picked up, is how people say we recieved these bombings because of our association with Bush and the Middle East. I am afraid that is only the tip of it all. It doesn't explain why these suicide bombers are doing this all over the world does it ?

Sure, on after thoughts invading Iraq has certainly not panned out well but these terrorists are born and bred, there is a cause at all times and it is their will to murder and maim. We have seen bombings and deaths which have indiscriminatory, proving at least that they do not care who gets killed, Muslims or not but take a look at where these atrocities have happened in the last decade, one can't blame Mr Blair for many, if any of them.

[Quillan]

I think Blair and Livingstone were speaking from their heart just as any normal person would and it was good to see this. Whilst I might not agree with their politics I thought what they said was right.

I think your last statement in part is true BUT this has happened in the UK and that makes it different. What they (whoever they are) do in their own back yard to their own people is between them and nothing to do with us. England is no longer a Empire, it is no longer in a position to use 'gun boat' diplomacy. The fact that they have tried reaps its own consequences, assuming again that that is where the bombers have come from.

[Coco]

"....To change what I call him on this occasion would have been a little strange I think."

But perhaps more respectful on this awful occasion, where I thing everyone would agree, he really did show true feelings for his fellow man, just a thought.

No I'm sorry Miki, I totally disagree.  I referred to the man in the way that I always have and to be quite honest, it's not particularly disrespectful, although why I need to show any respect to him I have no idea.  What I don't like is the way you and Dick are picking up on my dislike for Blair and twisting my meaning to appear disrespectful to what happened yesterday.  As for showing his true feelings, there's plenty more I could say on that matter, but this really isn't the time or place.  As someone else has said, just drop the politics and think a while about the devastated lives - after all, that's all that really matters.

We have some Londoners staying here at the moment, who were obviously as disturbed as the rest of us by this attrocious attack.  However, the husband said something that really made me stop and think......  "This is terrible, but it would just be another ordinary day if it had happened to civilians in Bagdhad."  It makes you realise just how lucky we are in our safe little worlds - those people don't want or deserve it either, but sadly have to live with it on a daily basis.

[Marym2]

Please stop whinging and get back to the facts. So far 50 dead bodies are still down in the tunnels, and as I worked at Kings Cross a while ago in these places ( fire protection which was in these areas where the worst fire took hold a few years earlier and killed all those people then) its no place to be. The bus which had its roof blown off, the TV had a woman who was next seated to a man who had shielded her and was killed (not confirmed but she thought he was) A person still missing that my other half knows, London traffic is small people are still going to work. We have had years of the IRA in London , are we now going to have the same with these fanatics? Listerning to George Galloway what a figure to have in London, I don't think so

[Miki]

Doesn't seem two minutes ago that we were asked to think how we would feel if 50,000 people died in the UK each week. Well sadly, we have had something happen that has not got that close but the feelings are extremely high. It must be pretty much clear now how we would all feel and I for one, hope that we can become a little more humble towards other countries that suffer this daily and some in massively more numbers.

Coco,

All Dick and I were saying, was a little more decorum for Mr Blair at this time would not have gone amiss. My utter distaste for Thatcher in particular, would not have gone so far as to continue to riducule her at such a moment.

Chris, these people have no "backyard", the world is their backyard, even the twin towers held no problems, Madrid, Thailand etc etc. I am not sure if you realise just how many followers Bin Laden has got and continues to attract ? He started with a few and now it is like a pyramid, a virus, which every time new people are trained, then so they continue to train.

If the G8 had been held in Paris, then you can be sure that is where these bombs could certainly have taken place in. London, Berlin, Paris, you can name as many as you want, and there are many, all of them at risk from terrorism. "Nothing to do with us", has nothing to do with it, we are all the evil do'ers in their eyes and saying "look its not our problem" will not wash. Until the Middle East gets serious and talks are started amongst all the factions and that of course includes the Palestinians and the state of Israel, nothing will change and terrorism will be rife for many decades to come.

[Renaud]

Thank you for drawing our attention to Ken Livingstone’s speech and his delivery of it.

 

I only wish that he could have made exactly the same speech at the height of the IRA’s bomb campaign, sadly he did not, instead he invited Adams and gang to London.

 

Whilst I do not mind politicians changing their mind, I do find the former friend of one lot of terrorists condemning another lot, a bit too rich to take.

 

As a postscript, I find the way he seems to object to bombing working class people strange. Is it OK to bomb the middle classes then?

[Missy]

I will apologise first to all believers of any creed whatsoever. What follows is my own opinion only and invoke that of noone else.

I was brought up as a catholic but I grew up and after some thinking/living/observing over many years, have become a confirmed agnostic/atheist. I do read a lot even religious books of all kind. In my readings I have found that ALL religions in their teachings preach to be GOOD towards each other and everyone in the world and to see GOODNESS in everything and everyone their Lord/God has created.

I find myself at pain to reconcile this fact of PREACHED GOODNESS against what has happened in London. I read on some website the statement issued by the perpetrators of this hideous crime and can not think for the life of me, WHY DID THEIR GOD, whom they thanked, whom they find merciful above all, from whom they are taught in their own Sacred Book to be good to everyone during their lives, HAS ALLOWED THEM to commit such a haineous act!

Through out the world and history conflicts have erupted under the mantle of a particular religion against another. WHY ? has THIS particular GOD told these followers/looneys to KILL so many people in the furtherance of their beliefs. What is the point in that ? What have they achieved? Where is the Goodness preached gone to?...

At a more local scale, I have neighbours who will see, talk, help, call upon each other everyday of the week BUT I have witnessed these same neighbours crossing the street to avoid and NOT even acknowledging each other! on their way to their respective house of worship. That on their 'Lord/God/Sabbath or whatever' day, where they will be listening to sermons on goodness etc... On that day, you will be hard pushed for any of them to come and help you if you were about to gasp your last breath!

If a good God there is at all, IT would NEVER have allowed such thing. Which is why I have concluded that there is NO God of any kind. God and religions were invented out of fears, invented by one or more persons to dominate unto others for their own end. And some people are stupid enough to take such thing to a bitter end....

In the words from a song by the group 'Crosby, Still, Nash & Young'

'Too many things in the name of Christ that I can't believe at all!'

In this instance, please read Christ as the generic term to qualify a god of ANY religion.

However it is my OWN opinion! I'll now retreat quietly tending to my corner of the world, help my neighbours, friends, colleagues of any colour, creed etc...

[Deimos]

From my personal experience of great tragedy in the past, despite feelings of sadness and grief an major personal question has been “Why ?”. Of course what has happened in the UK is terrible beyond words and I doubt many would disagree. From my experience I would expect those directly affected by this horrific act to (in part) asking themselves “Why”.

I consider it a valid question for anybody to ask why. Different aspects to such a question one of which is clearly why London. Coco (and Quillan) – I think your questions and comments valid and I agree. I have great sympathy for those affected by the tragedy but also would ask if this would have happened had the UK taken a different path over the Middle East. To that extent maybe there are questions for Mr. Blair to answer. The question has nothing to do with Mr. Blair being genuinely saddened nor his speech but rather “Why the UK” and has the UK’s overseas wars contributed to the cause of the tragedy. I have sympathy for those suffering great loss. Mr. Blair was well protected at the time many miles away (with police taken from London) – others have suffered the loss not Mr. Blair. That is not to say he is not saddened, etc. but then that is no different to the vast majority of people’s feelings about the tragic event.

I seem to remember at least one of the post Iraq enquiries commenting that the UK’s actions had increased the terrorist threat to the UK rather than improved the country’s security. When Ken Livingstone was appealing to Tony Blair to to support the war on Iraq (pre-invasion) he said (quote) "An assault on Iraq will inflame world opinion and jeopardise security and peace everywhere. London, as one of the major world cities, has a great deal to lose from war and a lot to gain from peace, international cooperation and global stability."

Re: the facts. Continually changing and I would suggest people consult e.g. BBC, one on the major newspaper web-sites, etc. as they will probably be more up-to-date that what people post here. Discussing the facts is difficult (as they are facts – not a lot more to say about them), but discussing the reasons why and whether our politicians have acted in our best interest, can be helpful.

Ian

[Miki]

Renard said "....I only wish that he could have made exactly the same speech at the height of the IRA’s bomb campaign, sadly he did not, instead he invited Adams and gang to London"

Surely it cannot have passed you by, that by continuing to keep any form of talks going, slowly, bit by bit, peace was gradually happening until today when the IRA have totally stopped their "war" on the mainland. If we had simply walked away from grabbing any of the chances of negotiations, believing that we must never talk with terrorists, peace could never happen, anywhere. I don't like it any more than the next person but we have to be realisitic and see that the only way to gaining peace in todays world, is through negotiations, however long it might take and with whoever it might take. By the way, Ken Livingstone condemned the IRA on more than one occasion.

[Will]

'One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter'.

I don't know who said it originally: I repeat it not to justify any of the terrible things that have happened but because it helps me understand perhaps why people can consider doing such things. And possibly, even, why terrorists of one hue may be regarded by some as 'more acceptable' than others. For example I'm not saying that our troops entering Iraq were terrorists - far from it - but that may not be what an Iraqi thinks, or is conditioned by propaganda to think.

I totally agree that the bombings could have been anywhere that would have made an impact. Just because we are in France now doesn't mean we have escaped the risk of being caught up in the effects of something like this. The French government has made plenty of enemies itself, they may not be the same as those of the British, American or Spanish governments, but the enemies are still capable of such acts.

[Tresco]

The British Government/s were in talks with the IRA leadership, it's just that they could do it behind closed doors whereas KL couldn't.

Understanding the factors behind different conflicts is not the same as approving acts of terrorism.

[Vraititi<P>PSG till I die -fluctuat nec mergitur.<P>]

Thanks Christine for asking after me. No I don't live in London, though I go there a lot and was there last week-end in fact. Yes, I used to live in the NE -well, used to live pretty much everywhere in the UK- but live in the Midlands now. Since the 90's bus and Métro bombings at Saint-Mich' (was over in Paris when it happened), I very rarely use the public transport. In Paris, I've got my scooter, in London I use taxis a lot. Well, I still feel dazed after yesterday's events. And as I wander aimlessly in my own home, feeling groggy, lost and in a sorry state, I keep asking myself, in French, the same damned question (WARNING: lousy pun coming): 'Mais où suis-je ? Où vais-je ? Dans quel état j'erre ?'

Yes, that's right, dans quelle étagère ai-je mis cette foutue boutanche de Pastis ?

[Christine Animal]

Glad to hear from you Vraititi.  I was getting worried.  You usually have so much to say, then plus rien.  I seem to remember you once said you live in the Cotswolds.

I watched the French news last night and they remarked on the calm of the people, no panic.  One reporter said this may partly be due to the fact that they have since a while now been made aware of the risk, and that it was not a question of are we going to get it, but when.  Some people interviewed in the street yesterday were even smiling, putting on a brave face.  I am in admiration...

[Vraititi<P>PSG till I die -fluctuat nec mergitur.<P>]

Oh ben merci, c'est gentil. I sometimes go and visit friends in the Cotswolds but I've never lived there proper, managed 2 months there once, it's a great place but too isolated for me. As for my 'having much to say usually' well, tu sais, moi, j'marche au courant alternatif, aux sautes d'humeur, c'est cyclique tout ça chez moi (that's my feminine side no doubt). Des fois je l'ouvre sans cesse, d'autres fois je me la coule douce, tranquille peinard, en laissant les autres en débattre. Tu sais, moi, j'ai pas des opinions sur tout et je m'en félicite ! J'ai pas d'avis sur tout, mais j'ai surtout des avis quoi, comme on dit en parlance populaire !