Viv Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 This could be a new category! On the BBC news internet site todayPupils allowed to the F word in class but only 5 times a lesson! see link belowhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/northamptonshire/4194098.stm Police officers to hand out lollipops to drunks as they go home - ah bless!Sorry need to paste this link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 That's bizarre. I've never tolerated swearing in my classroom, and to be honest no kids have ever pushed it (except for in aggressive situations where what is being said is usually less important than what is being done) and some of those kids have been quite rough. They all know an inappropriate register when they hear one. There has been genuine confusion in some sex-ed lessons, in which case you tend to get "Can I use the normal word, sir?", and the pupils' language is accepted for the greater good. I don't know any teacher who would go for this. My only thought is that as it is the good old Daily Wail there is some spin being put on this. The ticks on the board approach sounds like 'Assertive Discipline'; a rather dodgy American idea, perhaps two things are being confused here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnM Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 If the story is as reported (and the IF word is very important here), then it strikes me as being irresponsible. I watched one of those fly on the wall "Out with the Police" programmes last night (there really was nothing else on that I wanted to watch and I didn't want to do any more house work, OK, I should have picked up a book ) and a fellow was almost arrested for swearing in the street (he was upset that he'd been caught fare dodging). It may be a part of "street culture" but surely school should be as much about taking ones place in society as GCSE's (hence "citizenship" in the curriculum). There is a time and a place for everything but allowing bad language in class in normal circumstances, does not promote this idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 John - I totally agree. But to reiterate, I don't see this as a huge problem. Very few kids don't know that swearing in class (except in exceptional circumstances largely connected with power-operated machinery) is unacceptable, and they don't generally do it. I've never heard a kid swear more than once in a lesson - usually a raised eyebrow and a 'sorry' and it doesn't happen egain. Except for those about to/engaged in hitting each other, of course, in which case the teacher isn't going to calmly write their name on the blackboard (I hope)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viv Posted August 29, 2005 Author Share Posted August 29, 2005 I just think it sends out a terrible message to the children who don't feel the need to swear or that can resist the peer pressure of others to see that the school not condemning this type of behaviour but almost turning it into a game. How much learning/ teaching is going to take place in a lesson, if the teacher is having to focus on keeping a tally of how many times 30 kids swear? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnM Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 [quote]John - I totally agree. But to reiterate, I don't see this as a huge problem. Very few kids don't know that swearing in class (except in exceptional circumstances largely connected with power-operated...[/quote]Oh I'm sure / I hope you are right Dick. What seems odd is, why have a policy that "sort of" makes it OK, but "sort of" says that it is unacceptable? IF the report is accurate, I think that Head will have made the life of his teachers more difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 Yes - behaviour is about permissions, imo. If you behave in a certain way in front of a child you implicitly give it permission to do the same (as in "I lose my temper a lot, Mr Smith, but I've told Billy he mustn't") - Billy ignores the instruction and copies the behaviour because the adult has given him permission by their own acceptance of the behaviour. A similar mechanism works with violent movies etc. I think - and, of course, we have Hollywood and Mr Travolta in particular to thank for modelling all sorts of unpleasant behaviours. I only pick out John T because I can't stand him and he seems to me to be a raging hypocrite on such matters. So perhaps not so balanced there. But I hope you see what I mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bryansmith Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 Unfortunately the use of the 'F' word seems to be more and more acceptable in England. It is quite usual to hear it used by youngsters (some really young) when out in the street or public places.It can only be assumed that they hear it and use it at home. How sad is that !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayB Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 [quote]Yes - behaviour is about permissions, imo. If you behave in a certain way in front of a child you implicitly give it permission to do the same (as in "I lose my temper a lot, Mr Smith, but I've told B...[/quote]** Mr Travolta**Are you sure you don't mean 'Tarantino', Dick? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viv Posted August 29, 2005 Author Share Posted August 29, 2005 I know what you mean about permissions but teachers come in for such a lot of often unjustified flack, but allowing this to happen is surely playing into critics hands?I reiterate my earlier point, why should the honest, nice kids be subjected to this? I am not so niave as to believe that no one ever uses the f word, but I'm sure not many here would use it in the company of their children. My kids know better than to even think about using that word in front of me, so I would be appalled if they thought they could get away with using it in front of another adult. How can the staff hope to maintain either respect or discipline? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 Viva - I couldn't agree more. I can't think of a better way to lose all authority and respect.Ray - yes, QT doesn't help, does he? None of the Americans I know use bad language continually, despise authority and regard other people's lives with contempt, but then look at what Hollywood persuades the world the USA is like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnM Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 I've been thinking about this today (not even a lousy cop show to watch on TV) and wonder if the thinking behind it is "We are not going to tell you not to ever use Bad language because you hear it all the time, but to moderate it so that it has meaning" For me, the worst part of swear word usage is that it is dropped into sentences in a meaningless manner. Because I don't swear very much, when I do it really does mean "take notice now". Perhaps the Head in question is trying to say to the pupils "If you regularly use the F word more than 5 times in a 40 minute period, then you might as well not use it because you have lost its impact by over use". So let's count how many times you use it. I am sure many many people do not realise that they use the word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayB Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 [quote]Viva - I couldn't agree more. I can't think of a better way to lose all authority and respect.Ray - yes, QT doesn't help, does he? None of the Americans I know use bad language continually, despise au...[/quote]** look at what Hollywood persuades the world the USA is like.**I know! We have probably the five most popular tv shows in the US available to us here and we absolutely refuse to watch them. They just p*** me off something fierce with language, gratuitous sex and violence. Believe me, 'prude' is not a word in our vocabulary either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 Lets go the whole hog and only allow them to say 'y'know' 5 times in 40 minutes......sorry, having a Meldrew moment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miki Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 Dick "....A similar mechanism works with violent movies etc. I think - and, of course, we have Hollywood and Mr Travolta in particular to thank for modelling all sorts of unpleasant behaviours. I only pick out John T because I can't stand him and he seems to me to be a raging hypocrite on such matters. So perhaps not so balanced there. But I hope you see what I mean"Of course we all hope that our kids will be better persons than we are and the world we live in today, is not the one our Fathers would easily understand and now some of us are of an age that we feel the need to be prudent just like many believed our Fathers to be BUT and in this case I would argue that JT plays his parts extremely well, swearing or no swearing, blasphemy is here to stay, sadly or otherwise I am afraid, the centuries have passed and it is still with us but yes, we ought to safeguard any rules that do not allow it in school. Dick choosing actors and ones we feel are good at their craft has always seen me (and others) put JT in the top echelon of actors. We know films are not real life or perhaps they are too life like, either way, it reflects the world we now live in and as an actor he has few peers, my opinion of course. He came back after being rejected for so long and evolved in to a better actor, my opinion again of course but felt that I should put the case for, for the dear fellow. On a personal level I neither like science fiction films nor "all" films with violence as its theme, especially those along the lines of Rambo type affairs and anything with Arnold (not maschamps)in the film but I am old enough to accept that some films I like, will have swearing and violence within and I will still enjoy them, its the "plot" that decides it for me ! That and the heroine I guess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 I know it isn't particularly rational. Julie loves him, and I have to leave the room if she's watching one of his movies.Are we the people our parents warned us about? Probably.But that head - he's a real nutcase. Apart from anything else, how did he think this was going to play in the press? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 Can anyone explain to me what the hell this subject has got to do with France? There's not even the tenuous link between how French children behave in class Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 [quote]Can anyone explain to me what the hell this subject has got to do with France? There's not even the tenuous link between how French children behave in class[/quote]Isn't 'post bag' a general area or does everything on this forum have to be particularly about France and nothing relating to general standards about anything, whether on a European or worldwide basis, is allowed? Just curious....I'm sure I've seen lots of posts on this forum which didn't relate directly to France........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaligoBay Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 [quote]Can anyone explain to me what the hell this subject has got to do with France? There's not even the tenuous link between how French children behave in class[/quote]But you might find, Coco, that these very issues will start to appear in France in the not-too-distant future. They've just abolished capital punishment in French schools, it's the thin end of the wedge, you know!!But truly, if you actually listen to French people, what do you hear them saying about today's children? "Children have no respect, parents aren't doing their job any more, the lack of respect starts as early as maternelle, the children get away with too much, there's no discipline any more....." and so on ad nauseam.Slightly different, but a teacher friend said to me recently that 5 years ago she'd hardly even heard of hyperactivity, now she has at least one in every class. And of course she thinks a lot of it is made up, they're just badly-brought-up children. All these things make it across the Channel eventually. You can even get Marmite now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
le bouffon Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 Coco is right and as for marmite well it`s been in france for a long time,personally I hate the stuff and much prefer picallily from the auchan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayB Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 [quote]But you might find, Coco, that these very issues will start to appear in France in the not-too-distant future. They've just abolished capital punishment in French schools, it's the thin end of the w...[/quote]**You can even get Marmite now!**That's it!!!! We are DOOOMED! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viv Posted August 30, 2005 Author Share Posted August 30, 2005 Coco,It just makes me glad my kids are here and not there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoddy Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 "They've just abolished capital punishment in French schools,"Cripes ! I wish they'd had that when I was teaching. It would have saved the government a fortune in the long term.Back on the subject, I taught for twenty six years in a large comprehensive school and anyone using foul language got a detention. It didn't happen very often.Hoddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 It's this sort of thing which eventually leads to posts about 'why are English children so badly behaved in my B & B, isn't it Coco' ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christine Animal Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 Is it because they eat too much marmite... makes them hyperactive ? ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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