A Solemn moment

[Wendy]

I do not wish to become embroiled in the business about Miki. Tomorrow/today, 25th April, is ANZAC Day in Australia and New Zealand and we commemorate those Commonwealth boys who died for France, on French soil. We have just returned from holiday taking the route through the Somme region. We visited the war graves.  I read the diatribe against Les Rosbifs in the Times on Sunday and I wish to say this...to any Brits who find themselves in position of justifying their presence here in France just refer Les Francaise to the cemeteries holding the remains of all those British, Australian, New Zealand, Canadian, Indian and American boys who fought here and died here. While the remains of my fellow countrymen lie here, I reserve the right to be here. And so should all of you. Lest We Forget.

[Tag]

Yes Wen, mine are in the military cemetery at Abbeville. It is always a moving moment when I go there. And I have reminded a couple of Frenchmen of this. It works.

[Blanche Neige]

Wen

You make a very good point. I too visited the Somme two weeks ago and it is indeed a very sobering experience.

Next time (my very good ) French friend tells me that Les Anglais were not involved in WW1 I shall suggest she goes to visit all those war graves in the Somme, Flanders and elsewhere. July 1st marks 90th anniversary of the Battle of the Somme.

We will remember them

[Us Five]

Well said Wen.  I have a relative who is buried in a Cemetery in Borre nr to Hazebrouck.  It also has many Canadians there.

It is only a very small pretty village, but a very well kept cemetery last time I visited.

I don't see that things such as this should ever be forgotten!

[Just Katie]

[quote user="wen"]I do not wish to become embroiled in the business about Miki. Tomorrow/today, 25th April, is ANZAC Day in Australia and New Zealand and we commemorate those Commonwealth boys who died for France, on French soil. We have just returned from holiday taking the route through the Somme region. We visited the war graves.  I read the diatribe against Les Rosbifs in the Times on Sunday and I wish to say this...to any Brits who find themselves in position of justifying their presence here in France just refer Les Francaise to the cemeteries holding the remains of all those British, Australian, New Zealand, Canadian, Indian and American boys who fought here and died here. While the remains of my fellow countrymen lie here, I reserve the right to be here. And so should all of you. Lest We Forget.[/quote]

So the point being made is that these young lads lost their lives to give us the right to occupy France.  I really dont think so. 

[hastobe]

No - they gave us the freedom to choose

Hastobe

[Just Katie]

Hastobe, exactly, the freedom to choose is totally different to the right.

[Gluestick]

 

As the French and the Brits as well as the Israelis fought Naser in Egypt over the Suez Canal, does this give Brits and the French the right to live in Egypt?

From the Nord pas de Calais, down through the Somme and up to Luxembourg and Belgium, there are many cemetaries of British and Colonial troops who fell in WW I. It is very sobering.

What is even more sobering is the average ages of those lads who fell.

Some of these are quite small. All are immaculately kept. There are often fresh flowers placed on the graves. Has to be French people.

Montreuil near where we are, was also the HQ of the allies throughout WW I.

Lest we forget.............................

 

 

[Russethouse]

Until recently all I knew about my grandmothers first husband was that he died in World War 1 at Passchendaele, what I didn't realise was that he was a contentious objector who was drafted to be a stretcher bearer. Of course stretcher bearers have to go where the casualties are.................

[Tag]

No, but it does remind our two peoples that we have a hell of a lot in common that come the crunch we can be there for each other. What about the 300000 French guests we welcome in UK? I have never heard any Brit say "French go home".

The French are hurting badly because the Fifth Republic is a mess and needs reforming, but they find it easier to hit out at whatever Aunt Sally is about. So do the Brits by the way.

By the way, the "right to choose" is absolute in my book.

[SaligoBay]

At a big all-day eat-in last Friday I made ANZAC biscuits, and I explained to people who the ANZACs were, and why April 25th was chosen as the day (it was the start of the Gallipoli campaign).

It was interesting research.  At the time of the 1st world war, the population of NZ was less than one million.  10% of the population went to fight.  They lost one third of their young men between 20-40.  When you see the number of Australians lost at Gallipoli, it is really quite humbling.  Anyone who doesn't feel that, should listen to "And the Band Played Waltzing Matilda".   And I looked at the place where my legs used to be, never knew there were worse things than dying. 

It's not a competition.  It's people who gave their lives.  

Happy ANZAC Day to you all. 

[bedders]

We always pay our respects (usually around the cemetries near Arras) on the way home from holiday.

This year on the way to Jura, we are stopping off for a couple of days in the Somme. It's such a small thing to do, compared to the sacrifice of others and we always end up in tears, but i wouldn't miss it.

Bedders   

[Blanche Neige]

It's not a competition.  It's people who gave their lives.  

quite right S.B.

[Just Katie]

The young people ask what are they marching for, and I ask myself the same question.

Waltzing Matilda.  Heartwrenching

[Michael]

Funny that you should mention the battle of Passchendaele Gay.My grandfather was wounded and gassed there in1917serving with the Royal Berks.He named his son william festerburt after the stretcher bearer who found him. Festerburt being the the little village where he was saved and stitched up He always referred to Haig as Butcher Haig ,I do not know why..Michael.

[redcap]

The right to choose is exactly why volunteers from all over the world signed on to take on the aggressors of the time. They didn't fight for the right of anyone to say that they could live or have any say over any particular area of the world. I have fought for my Country my father and his father fought for their Country, it gives us no rights over anyone or any country. Members of our famillies have fallen not because of any personal gain but because it was the thing to do at that particular time. I am offended that people think that wars and conflicts are fought by armed services in the hope of personal glory or gain. I get really fed up with comments from various sources that have no idea of the pain that is suffered by members of the armed forces especially when they are made from a position of safety and comfort. In WW1 our soldiers suffered extream conditions, they fought when asked and mostly without complaint. So did the French,Canadians, Germans,Americans,Indians,Africans,Australians,Belgians,Dutch and many many more which is why it was a World War. What rights do their famillies have in other countries?........ Freedom comes to mind. The right to choose to go where they want in the world and when they want. I know that there are places still closed to our way of thinking, but isn't that what Adolf and Sadam said................

[Hoddy]

Blanche Neige wrote

"Next time (my very good ) French friend tells me that Les Anglais were not involved in WW1 I shall suggest she goes to visit all those war graves in the Somme, Flanders and elsewhere."

This is one of the best arguments I know for good history teaching - on a well designed curriculum.

The French should know this, not in order to make them grateful or anything like that, but just so that they have a better grasp on what actually happened.

Hoddy

[Tag]

French history books for schools are very much written by the ministry in Paris and reflect the thinking of the moment, but always a strongly French viewpoint (British ones similar but not quite I think).

The wonderful French revolutionary government, they of 'Liberty, Equality and Fraternity' were responsible for the rape and attempted genocide of the Vendée in which 250,000ish people were slaughtered in ways you dont want to know, yet the last time I saw a school history book it got no more than a couple of paragraphs. Which was progress as it had not been mentioned at all for about 200 years.

 

[Dick Smith]

I'm pretty certain that no history books are written in ministries in either country, and to say so just betrays paranoia or lack of consideration of the real world. In France, as their is an 'official' history book there may be some selection, but nothing of the kind occurs in the UK.

The men who fought and died in WW1 and WW2 did so for reasons completely other than our 'right' to live in France, and I think that to use them in such an argument is demeaning and quite likely the sort of crassness which leads to resentment. After all, the French lost a lot more men in defence of their country than did the Empire - visit Verdun with the bones of 130,000 unknown soldiers in the ossuary. "Pour comprendre la France il faut comprendre Verdun" as was once said to me.

The reason for fighting was, ostensibly, Belgian independence. The Belgian government was so grateful for the sacrifice of Empire troops that for many years, maybe even up to today as far as I know, Belgian schools flew Canadian flags as well as their own. There is still the daily ritual of the Last Post at the Menin Gate. The real reason for fighting was to hedge German power. Those two reasons were the ones that men fought for, that and duty because their country called, and a spirit of adventure, or in some cases because they needed the regular wages. Not to give us the right to buy French houses.

[SaligoBay]

[quote user="Dick Smith"]The reason for fighting was, ostensibly, Belgian independence. [/quote]

But here's what they learn in school, Dick: 

-  WW1 started when Germany invaded France.

-  WW2 started when Germany invaded France.

Sarajevo, Belgium, all that stuff, it would only confuse the little bouts de chou.  [:)]

 

[Clarkkent]

Butcher Haig.

The following is from Wikipedia - it sums it up as well I could.

"He directed several British campaigns, including the British offensive at the Somme, in which the forces under his command sustained over 500,000 casualties taking little ground but inflicting casualties on the German army it could not afford and the campaign at Passchendaele (3rd Battle of Ypres). Haig's tactics in these battles are still controversial to this day, with many, including the then Prime Minister, Lloyd George, arguing that he incurred unnecessarily large casualties for little tactical gain."

When I think of the waste - in every respect - that was WW1, I want to weep. But I thank God that later much of the world had the moral courage to stand up to Hitler.

But Haig then went on to campaign tirelessly for for the well-being of ex-servicemen in such organisations as the British Legion. When he died he was greatly mourned. I believe he was in Alan Clark's mind when he coined the term "lions led by donkeys".

[KathyC]

[quote user="SaligoBay"]

[quote user="Dick Smith"]The reason for fighting was, ostensibly, Belgian independence. [/quote]

But here's what they learn in school, Dick: 

-  WW1 started when Germany invaded France.

-  WW2 started when Germany invaded France.

Sarajevo, Belgium, all that stuff, it would only confuse the little bouts de chou.  [:)]

 

[/quote]

And the Americans don't even think that either world war started until they entered them!

[Val_2]

Gill. My late granddad won the MM for putting his life at risk and getting a french family to safety that were in the path of the fighting during WW1 on the Somme, you can tell your friend that and many others from outside France fighting the germans did the same.

[Russethouse]

On Sunday Micheal Parkinson intervied an ex Australian Cricket player who said that the team visited Gallipoli together, his comment was that although team bonding in their case was often spending their leisure time together, getting drunk etc, that trip was the most 'bonding' experience he had ever had, and that those present still speak about it even years later. I believe the team coach at the time was not born in Australia, but said that after that he knew what being Australian really meant.

You can 'listen again' http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/shows/parkinson/ 

[tmto]

[quote user="Dick Smith"]The men who fought and died in WW1 and WW2 did so for reasons completely other than our 'right' to live in France, and I think that to use them in such an argument is demeaning and quite likely the sort of crassness which leads to resentment.
[/quote]

I agree, considering that the French lost almost 1.4 million men in WW1 (excluding civilian deaths), pointing them to cemetaries could be construed as being slightly patronizing.