A Solemn moment

[Dick Smith]

Haig's tactics have been the subject of discussion since the mid-1920s, and there is still no agreement or consensus, certainly not simplistic ones which can be expressed in a brief post or a Wikipedia stub.

As the historian John Terraine pointed out, Haig did not kill those soldiers, the German Imperial army did, the most skilled and highly trained army of its time. What Haig did was beat it. He did not spend 500,000 lives and gain no ground, he (with the French and under French command) drove German forces back to their own frontiers.

Haig was given a job to do in a war which had no precedent - the first truly technological war and yet paradoxically the first war in which battlefield commanders had no real-time communications with their subordinates.

In 1915 and 1916 Haig's volunteer army (Kitchener volunteer armies K1-K3) had nothing like the training and experience they needed to fight the German army, and weren't going to until late 1917 -1918. Then they could use tactics which minimised losses, but in any such war the losses were always going to be high. And then even higher in 1918 after the failure of the German 'Michael' offensive in March and the '100 Days' campaign in which the British and French won a series of crushing, although costly, victories in a war of movement.

Terraine calculated the losses in WW1 and compared them to battles in WW2 where the main armies were in continual contact for an extended period, such as the 1944 Normandy campaign, and the loss rates were similar to the First World War.

Lloyd George, by the way, was a self-serving autobiographer and damned Haig after his death, so as not to be seen as a 'butcher' himself.

[Wendy]

Without wanting to take this discussion toooo far into the realms of 'ungrateful French',  I just wish to say that no, we do not have the RIGHT to be here but all the same the Brits should not have to put up with any sentiments of unwelcomeness. 'Les invasion anglaise' as a phrase is a little rude as in WWI and June 1944 the French were not too fussy  back then about 'us' coming here in terms of  their liberation and they cannot have it both ways. Many countries contributed to France's freedom back then. In Australia, for example, we owe an incredible debt to the Americans for if it wasn't due to their efforts in winning the Battle of the Coral Sea the Japs would have done even more damage to Australia. Churchill is on record as having said that the 'Japs can take Australia, we'll get it back after the war. ' We recognize that and our debt to the Americans and( choke, splutter)Gen. MacArthur. We'd never, ever say 'get out yanks' in Australia. We are part of French history whether they like it or not. But the French, I must say, do take brilliant care of our war graves. I love the little remembrance books they keep at the cemeteries.

[Clarkkent]

Dick

I was neither demonising nor sanctifying Haig, merely answering a question which had been asked in a previous post.

[Dick Smith]

I realise that, CK, no critcism intended.

[Anton Redman]

[quote user="KatieKopyKat"]

The young people ask what are they marching for, and I ask myself the same question.

Waltzing Matilda.  Heartwrenching

[/quote]

Written by Eric Bogle, I think Leaving Nancy is a better song .Heard Dave Walters and Havrey Andrews play both.