BNP/FN vote is about rage rather than race

[Russethouse]

So, are you now saying that the Liberals, despite there previous protestations and  ambitions,  are unelectable in the current system?

Mod hat on

This is a forum for people with an interest in France, and that is what people want to discuss in the main, not forum politics

The conversation in this section quite often leads to comparison and discussion about the UK, and other countries on occasion, there is nothing wrong in that. Lets put it as plainly as possibly - the majority of members of this forum are not interested in an ongoing saga of your various gripes with the mods, either collectivley or individually. 

You had a complaint, it was dealt with, the matter is closed, now please, move on.

Mod hat off

 

[Miki]

".....So, are you now saying that the Liberals, despite there

previous protestations and  ambitions,  are unelectable in

the current system?"

What do you mean by "...So, are you now saying that the Liberals"  ?

Oh wonders !! The lady has got it.. If they do not have the financial

clout of the other main parties, how can they fight fire with fire ? Do

you expect them to tell the electorate all that, surely not ? They do

think that it is pretty obvious (not to all it would seem) that

financially they are far in the distance, compared to the two leading

parties. There is of course the chance of further seats being gained

but as I have said, they are far too short in numbers to do serious

damage to the winning party. The UK has for a while been following the

USA's form of mass election rallies, tour buses, film and pop stars

backing differing parties etc, just look at the incredibly huge costs

involved for the winning party in the USA (and of course the

opposition). It takes millions of pounds, or in the case of the States

several million to get ones neck in front, what chance the Libs, as it

now stands, starting the next election on a level playing field ? Ever

wondered why the Libs do very well at by elections ? It is not just the

voters wanting to give the ruling party a bloody nose, you should see

the numbers they plough in for these elections, it makes one hell of a

difference.

Mod hat on

This is a forum for people with an interest in France, and that is what people want to discuss in the main, not forum politics

The conversation in this section quite often leads to

comparison and discussion about the UK, and other countries on

occasion, there is nothing wrong in that.  with the mods, either

collectivley or individually. 

You had a complaint, it was dealt with, the matter is closed, now please, move on.

Mod hat off

This forum, to me and many other members, is somewhere to discuss

things in whatever thread you chose, be it from the finance to

gardening to regional and all stations in between. The Postbox for as

long as I can remember, has always had a very, very varied array of

discussions, thoughts and even  laughter !!. What I think it

really doesn't want, is someone to dictate what can, or cannot be said,

that's not Moderating, that sadly comes down to dictatorial orders.

As far as my complaint

was concerned I should just like to say, it was not dealt with in the

correct manner and was totally unjust, if a Mod can't take a joke, well end of story.

"....Lets put it as plainly as possibly - the majority of members of

this forum are not interested in an ongoing saga of your various gripes"

Don't ever talk about

majorities and minorities being interested or not about any persons

posts. Many posts on here are of use only to a miniscule amount of

folks and sincere good luck goes to those that are interested in any

such posts (and there are thousands no doubt that will fall in to such

a bracket). You really must realise, that as far as I am aware, this is

a forum for members and the members are allowed to say and discuss

within reason, what they want, without a Moderator offering any member

the views of a so called majority. A few took their priveleged right to

tell me they didn't like it, I respect that fully, I didn't agree with

some but agreed with others. I mentioned my gripe some posts ago in

passing and as someone said a while back, if one does not receive a

reply, it can't be replied to and you above all should know, that from

PM's sent to you and no reply received.

[Teamedup]

Both countries have problems, a dream place to live, neither are for me. However, I have been settled in France and I will re settle in England.

 

 

 

We had dinner with a couple of British holiday home owners nearby yesterday evening. Coincidentally, he works in rugby administration in England, and she has a bichon frisé, but that's beside the point. What my point is, is that I had the Daily Mail (having worked for its parent company I can recognise it a mile off) quoted to me all night about what a state Britain is supposedly in, and any doubts I expressed were countered by the fact that I would see all of these ills for myself if I went back.

What they probably don't realise is that I do go back on average every 3-4 weeks. So if anything had changed so much in the four years or so that I have lived mainly in France, I think I might have noticed something.

Or maybe it's the rose tinted spectacles thing in reverse?

 

 

 

I too hear that sort of thing Will all the time when I'm back, that and the twaddle about France being good. Ofcourse these people know 'ugger all about France, but because they like to fill their heads with the idea that Britain is bad, then their logic tordu says that France must be good.  And I suppose that if they moved to France they could live in an exclusive closed little world of not being able to speak french or not much and still wouldn't know what was going on in those places where most of the french population live,and yet they would still be able to get copies of the Mail or Sky or whatever affirming that they had really escaped hell. Funny old world n'est pas.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

I'm not so sure that the FN result in the 2002 shindig was anything

other than the result of an overly fractured left-wing vote. A quick

look here I

think demonstrates this. The FN had polled between 11% and 15% in

elections between 1984 and 1995. The vote was split (and overall lower)

in 1999 when Bruno Mégret stood in direct opposition, so the

"improvement" to 16.9% for Le Pen in 2002 was a significant one, but

not, I would suggest, really indicative of a widespread protest vote.

The greatest source of help that the BNP (and the FN for that matter)

can hope for is the "my vote doesn't make a difference" brigade. The

BNP have supporters who will vote.

[Renaud]

Firstly I agree with most of Quillan's points made in his first post on this thread. He quotes Margret Hodge as saying " thousands of white working-class voters were deserting Labour for the BNP in her constituency of Barking, east London. Anger over immigration and asylum seekers was a major factor".

I remember back when Enoch Powell made his infamous 'rivers of blood' speech, the dockers from east London marched in support of him - you did not get much more 'Old Labour' than the Dockers. So the BNP claim that they are the heirs to Old Labour has an uncomfortably truth about it.

I think that a large part of the problem with issues of race in the UK is that it is impossible to discuss them at all without somebody quickly shouting 'racist' - after which discussion is impossible. This has led to a “don't mention the 'I' word” in society and in local and national politics. This in turn led to well-meaning local politicians making decisions regarding housing immigrants in virtual secrecy.

So a silent social engineering, created communities where Margret Hodges' constituents feel marginalised. They correctly feel that nobody consulted them and they are left to live with a situation where a destitute immigrant will leapfrog the housing queues for what social housing is available.

My point is that were it possible to rationally discuss the issues behind 'multicultural Britain' the situation would be much healthier. It is symptomatic that Margret Hodge having stumbled onto the race problem in her constituency cannot address it and discuss it with her former voters, she only seems able to wring her hands at a safe distance.

'Dave' Cameron has realised that a major contributory factor in the last three elections was the tactical voting between the Lib Dems and Labour. He is moving the party to the centre ground hoping to pick up Lib Dem voters and destroy the tactical voting. This is a feasible way back to better representation in parliament. He does not care about those on the far right indeed last week he was deliberately picking a fight with UKIP because picking-up dissatisfied Lib Dems are a better route to power.

Sarkozy however is taking the opposite route. He knows that he will not win the presidency outright, he hopes to get through to the final round against the socialist candidate, knowing that enough of Le Pen's votes will transfer to him.

[hastobe]

[quote user="Renaud"]Firstly I agree with most of Quillan's points made

in his first post on this thread. He quotes Margret Hodge as saying "

thousands of white working-class voters were deserting Labour for the

BNP in her constituency of Barking, east London. Anger over immigration

and asylum seekers was a major factor".

I remember back when Enoch Powell made his infamous 'rivers of blood'

speech, the dockers from east London marched in support of him - you

did not get much more 'Old Labour' than the Dockers. So the BNP claim

that they are the heirs to Old Labour has an uncomfortably truth about

it.

I think that a large part of the problem with issues of race in the UK

is that it is impossible to discuss them at all without somebody

quickly shouting 'racist' - after which discussion is impossible. This

has led to a “don't mention the 'I' word” in society and in local and

national politics. This in turn led to well-meaning local politicians

making decisions regarding housing immigrants in virtual secrecy. So a

silent social engineering, created communities where Margret Hodges'

constituents feel marginalised. They correctly feel that nobody

consulted them and they are left to live with a situation where a

destitute immigrant will leapfrog the housing queues for what social

housing is available. My point is that were it possible to rationally

discuss the issues behind 'multicultural Britain' the situation would

be much healthier. It is symptomatic that Margret Hodge having stumbled

onto the race problem in her constituency cannot address it and discuss

it with her former voters, she only seems able to wring her hands at a

safe distance.[/quote]

I couldn't agree more - you've summed up my views exactly.  (Btw I

know at least eight people (friends, family, work colleagues - all

'professionals' and certainly not extremists) that admitted that they

had voted BNP at the last election - so there is some substance in

these polls.)  I think many people feel that its only in the

privacy of the polling booth that they can express their true feelings

about some of the decisions regarding immigration etc that have been

taken over the last few years.  What is needed is open honest

debate not a veil of political correctness that only serves to mask the

resentment simmering underneath.

Hastobe

[michelin79]

Don't worry about the BNP doing as well in the elections as some people have predicted. They have shot themselves in the foot by  apparently stating in a leaflet to be distributed on 23 April (St Georges Day) that the following people should not play for England in the World Cup:

Black people (predictable)

Wayne Rooney (because of his Irish ancestry)

David Beckham (because he is one quarter Jewish)

Perhaps their strategists have not consulted enough focus groups to establish that this is not the way to attract the white working-class vote.

( IMHO the England team only has a chance of winning if they get rid of Beckham but I'd better not hijack this political thread and turn it into a World Cup thread )

Mike

[Quillan]

[quote user="michelin79"]

( IMHO the England team only has a chance of winning if they get rid of Beckham but I'd better not hijack this political thread and turn it into a World Cup thread )

Mike

[/quote]

Is he still getting lessons on how to take a penalty from Johnny Wilkinson, sorry couldn’t resist [;-)] .

[michelin79]

[quote user="hastobe"]
I couldn't agree more - you've summed up my views exactly.  (Btw I know at least eight people (friends, family, work colleagues - all 'professionals' and certainly not extremists) that admitted that they had voted BNP at the last election - so there is some substance in these polls.)  I think many people feel that its only in the privacy of the polling booth that they can express their true feelings about some of the decisions regarding immigration etc that have been taken over the last few years.  What is needed is open honest debate not a veil of political correctness that only serves to mask the resentment simmering underneath.

Hastobe
[/quote]

I might be totally wrong in saying this and I would be interested to hear if anyone actually knows: Do we have privacy in the polling booth? The last time I voted I remember thinking that when the voting slip was handed to me there seemed to be some correlation between the number on the voting slip and information put next to my name on the list of voters. I was voting C or Lab or Lib but I thought what if I was voting BNP or Communist ........can someone somewhere get hold of this information ?

Mike

[Tresco]

[quote user="hastobe"]
I couldn't agree more - you've summed up my views exactly.  (Btw I know at least eight people (friends, family, work colleagues - all 'professionals' and certainly not extremists) that admitted that they had voted BNP at the last election [/quote]

Why did they vote for a party whose main platform is 'repatriation' of anyone who isn't 'kindred'. Did you ask them?[:)]

[quote user="michelin79"] The last time I voted I remember thinking that when the voting slip was handed to me there seemed to be some correlation between the number on the voting slip and information put next to my name on the list of voters. I was voting C or Lab or Lib but I thought what if I was voting BNP or Communist ........can someone somewhere get hold of this information ?[/quote]

I noticed it too, a long time ago. I asked about it and got some fob off answer.

If someone collects it, you can bet someone can access it.

 

[Bassman]

Having worked as a polling officer on a few elections I spotted this straight away, that each ballot slip is numbered and that number is entered against the voters name! I asked the person in charge if this meant that peoples votes could be found out and was also sort of fobbed off, but it don't take a genius to see that they could be albeit with a lot of effort as all the slips would have to be sorted back into numerical order and filed. I think if it was ever to be revealed that this was done there would be hell to pay.... but then anything is possible [:-))]

[hastobe]

[quote user="Tresco"]

Why did they vote for a party whose main platform is 'repatriation' of anyone who isn't 'kindred'. Did you ask them?[:)]

[/quote]

Yes - because they are sick of not being able to walk in areas of their own town without intimidation and violence, tired of different rules for certain ethinic minorities (for example - local schools allowing muslim children additional holidays, uniform accommodations etc etc that are not afforded to white pupils), seeing adverts for jobs where if the words 'ethnic minority' were replaced with 'young white middle class males' there would be uproar, ethnic minority quotas for the police force, local council etc ...

Hastobe

[Iceni]

[quote user="SaligoBay"][quote user="Iceni"]

It has been said that in UK people vote AGAINST rather than FOR in elections. The threat/promise of BNP councillors is a fine argument to oppose "first past the post" and probably universal suffrage as well. [/quote]

Does this not apply to France as well?  Voting for the FN to indicate that they're fed up with everything else?   If that wasn't the case, then there's a worrying number of genuine FN fans around the place.

What do you think of the French presidential election system?   That's first-past-the-post in a different guise.  The first round gives you the first two past the post, then the highest scorer out of those two becomes president.  An extra layer of complication, if you ask me!   Chirac was already the leader in the first round, the second one was a waste of time.

[/quote]

First past the post is an undemocratic system except in a 2 party state. I have never voted under STV but it sounds a better option. - maybe those from NI would comment. The UK Liberals will not win under the present system - but that is their own fault. They had an opportunity to cahnge things when they ruled the world but hey , whoever said politicians could see beyond the next brown envelope for selling an "honour".

A system that is "wonderful" when my team is winning suddenly becomes unacceptable when the wrong crowd might win a seat or two. Perhaps something different should be introduced in seats where extremists might win ? Perehaps His Holiness will eliminate Poplar when Mosley wins, MilkSnatch did something similar with the GLC.

John

not

 

[Gluestick]

Well, back now from la Belle France and straight in to a contraversial thread![Www]

Why do people even consider the BNP?

Surely, it's because the other parties have left many voters feeling isolated.

As always, when the dreaded subject of racism comes up, as has already been pointed out, it is now extremely hard to enjoy an open debate, as the majority feel intimidated by even considering making any comment which might be perceived as racist.

I am sure, that most of us here will agree that the PC thing has been done to death: at work, socially, wherever, we are now conditioned to preconsider our verbal and written responses, to ensure that we do not err.

From many conversations with people of all types, there is an underswell of polarised opinion, towards much of what the BNP platform espouses. I well remember the old chap who lived in Wapping, who became amongst the first BNP local Councillors being interviewed on TV.

He had lived in the same two up, two down in Wapping for all of his adult life: he had worked in the docks until they were closed. What finally made him kick back (as he saw it) was a block of maisonettes (bought at fire sale price from the developer in 1991) which was intended as very up-market Yuppy housing, being turned into social housing and then being 100% let to political asylum seeker immigrants from some where in North Africa. As he said, why not let them to the old and loyal tenants and then let the old two ups to the migrants? He felt disincluded.

In the same way, my understanding of the swing to Jean Marie Le Pen, was a knee jerk reaction from many French voters, totally fed up with the political hegemony around the centrist candidates. If you like, this was a wake-up call: and it did seem to work, for a time.

In the UK, presently, many Middle Englanders (myself included) feel disadvantaged. We seem to pay for everything and are actively discriminated against by the system. As a male WASP, this is particularly so.

The majority of multi-racial societies are racist in many ways: New York is an excellent example.

For me, the idiotic Race Relations Act (thank you Mr Mark Bonham-Carter) was a typical piece of liberal legislation, from an Ivory Tower dweller.

In the same way, statutes aganst sexism make for a very tenuous workplace.

It is fundamentally impossible to legislate either for or against any social dynamic: rather, it requires an encouraged ethos, for example, if parliament passed a new act, tomorrow, which said something like, "As from midnight tonight, crime is illegal!", the result can be imagined. However, this is precisely what government has been trying to do for forty odd years. They are endeavouring the square the circle on the one hand and totally ignoring the reality that implementing what already exists is the primary method of ensuring social stability on the other. The Grantham Mauler, of course, was the doyen of "Problem? pass a new law!" and New Labour seem to have picked up her baton.

The main problem, I believe, against acts of parliment (or Euro parliament) which seek to correct social imbalance, are that instead of actually achieving this, they create a level of overt inequality which in fact has the opposite of the desired effect. Thus in the case of British racism, it is now covert and more deeply ingrained than ever, mainly because instead of learning to rub along, when people are coerced then they become even more resistant. Additionally, like kids at school, talking (mainly myth!) behind the "Bogs" about sex, something which is forbidden, thereafter develops into a sort of delightful and enjoyable and dangerous pursuit.

The hidden danger in the BNP is, I believe, that when voters pick on one or two issues which chime with them personally, they tend to ignore the more unpleasant parts of the agenda. But, hey! most of the electorate never question the idiot New Labour platform or the Conservatives bluster either and vote mainly for the wrong things anyway. Those of us with a modicum of nous, can see the friable platform of the Lib Dems and how their platform varies from the lunatic to the impossible and probably, realising that since our own vote is worthless, these days, don't bother anymore.

 

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="hastobe"]

[quote user="Tresco"]

Why did they vote for a party whose main platform is 'repatriation' of anyone who isn't 'kindred'. Did you ask them?[:)]

[/quote]

Yes - because they are sick of not being able to walk in areas of

their own town without intimidation and violence, tired of different

rules for certain ethinic minorities (for example - local schools

allowing muslim children additional holidays, uniform accommodations

etc etc that are not afforded to white pupils), seeing adverts for jobs

where if the words 'ethnic minority' were replaced with 'young white

middle class males' there would be uproar, ethnic minority quotas for

the police force, local council etc ...

Hastobe

[/quote]

And of course drunken (mainly) white youths would never make the centre of so many towns "no-go" areas of a Friday or Saturday night, would they?

I've not got much truck with "positive discrimination," mostly because

of the second part of the term - discrimination is discrimination. It's

not even effective - how many captains of British industry are

non-whites?  However, the BNP agenda is not about making a level

playing field for everybody, is it? It is about removing the right to

legal redress from a section of British society based on the colour of

their skin. The fact that some in this section of society might be

fourth or even fifth generation British cuts no ice - witness the

latest BNP farce over the canditature of a third generation Briton of

Armenian extraction.

[hastobe]

On a connected issue - did anyone see the news about the changes in

recruitment for NHS staff?  From now on jobs will only be offered

to non European candidates if it has been impossible to find a British

candidate to fill the post - inline with the policy of the US, Canada,

Australia etc.  Doctors and nurses have protesting outside

Whitehall today.

It seems stupid that there is such inconsistency between European and other non British immigrants. 

Hastobe

[hastobe]

[quote user="jond"]

However, the BNP agenda is not about making a level

playing field for everybody, is it? It is about removing the right to

legal redress from a section of British society based on the colour of

their skin. The fact that some in this section of society might be

fourth or even fifth generation British cuts no ice - witness the

latest BNP farce over the canditature of a third generation Briton of

Armenian extraction.

[/quote]

But it has got the politicians talking! We even had a local Labour

councillor telephoning us - concerned that we may consider voting

BNP.  In the twenty years I have lived at this address this is the

first time any councillor has bothered to contact us.  Which says

a lot.

Hastobe

[Dick Smith]

Oh, so racism is OK if it gets 'politicians talking' is it?

[hastobe]

Racism cuts both ways - unfortunately we have been brainwashed to turn a blind eye to positive racial descrimination. 

I am against any sort of discrimination and believe in a meritocracy -

and that doesn't just apply to the issue of race.  Despite being

female, I don't subscribe to this view that we should 'break the glass

ceiling' by descriminating in favour of women (i.e. quotas for women in

business, government, the police force etc.)  I would prefer

people to respect my contribution, skills and experience for what it is

- not because I am included in some drive to improve the statistics for

political expediency.   But for that to happen we need

understanding and empathy - which will never happen whilst one group is

seen to be positively advantaged at the expense of another.  That

just feeds resentment and mistrust and when you add the silencing gag

of 'political correctness' then we see extreme behaviours emerging (e.g

the petrol bombing and race riots we had on our streets just a couple

of years ago.)

Hastobe

[Tresco]

[quote user="hastobe"]

Yes - because they are sick of not being able to walk in areas of their own town without intimidation and violence, tired of different rules for certain ethinic minorities (for example - local schools allowing muslim children additional holidays, uniform accommodations etc etc that are not afforded to white pupils), seeing adverts for jobs where if the words 'ethnic minority' were replaced with 'young white middle class males' there would be uproar, ethnic minority quotas for the police force, local council etc ...

Hastobe

[/quote]

 'Positive discrimination' is illegal in UK.

People who refer to it often mean 'positive action', which some employers use to target or attract applications from groups who they feel are under represented in their organisations. It does not mean that they give the job to someone with poorer qualifications or skills.

Senior police officers have called for 'affirmative action' (or positive disrimination) only because the government has imposed stupid targets of recruitment on them which they cannot achieve.

All children are entitled to have extra days off school for major religious festivals, if their parents ask permission in advance, and in writing. The fact is that most school holidays fall around the major Christian festivals so 'christian' children, whether they are practicing Christians or not, get the time off anyway. 

Hastobe, what 'uniform accomodations' would you like to see 'afforded to white pupils' that are currently denied them?

[Dick Smith]

"Racism cuts both ways - unfortunately we have been brainwashed to turn

a blind eye to positive racial descrimination. "

Tell that to the relatives of Steven Lawrence, Anthony Walker, Lee Phipps, Kamal Butt, Zahid Mubarak, Bapishankar Kathirgamanathan, Kalan Kawa Karim.

Sure there have been attacks and even murders by black people on whites, but how can you compare the years of racism aimed at blacks by whites with those few examples?

And precisely how have we been brainwashed? And to accept what? And by whom? Are you the only person for whom it did not work and therefore see what has happened? Or is that something you read somewhere? And if so, where?

Don't try to dress up your prejudice with the tattered rags of justification through indignation at your own 'discriminatory' treatment and attempt to equate it with what ethnic minority groups have had to put up with for years. And don't do the 'political correctness' thing - that one really has had its day.

[hastobe]

Treating children equally should mean that - to give one group of

children in the school all the usual school holidays...and then all the

muslim holidays as well - whilst telling the non muslim children (white

and afrocarribean) that they have to attend school while their muslim

classmates are on holiday is unfair and is not seen as a 'positive

action' in the eyes of the children who have to remain in school.

The uniform accommodations I was referring to was allowing the muslim

in the school to wear bright pink, green etc traditional muslim dress

whilst giving a white child with the wrong colour shoelaces detention -

and, believe it or not, it happened!!

Positive discrimination may be illegal but it is practiced - for

example an advert on the intranet at work stated that 'prefernce would

be given to ethnic minorities'.  This was considered to be

acceptable!  If that advert had been rewritten and the words

changed to 'preference will be given to white candidates'  I think

the repurcussions would have been pretty serious.

Hastobe

[hastobe]

Clearly the brainwashing has been pretty successful!!  But then

again I don't recall hearing about many racial issues in the leafy

suburbs of Surrey...  Try living in Oldham, Luton, Stoke...

I am not sure where you have gleaned the idea that I have been

discriminated against.  The cases you have cited are totally

unacceptable racial attacks.  But... if children experience

inequitable treatment then they foster resentment - a resentment that

may result in racial tension and intolerance in the future.  As a parent I have

always been absolutely fair and even handed with each of my children -

and I would expect schools, acting in loco parenthesis, to do the same.

Hastobe

[Dick Smith]

So what you are actually saying is that UK schools should not honour Muslim holidays (which actually run to a total of 2 days a year as I recall). How about the law which gives all pupils of whatever religion the right to miss school for religious observance? This year Easter Monday fell in term time - should Christian children have been made to go to school? Shoelaces? What do you think that is about? Do you imagine a school excludes someone over shoelaces? No, they exclude someone after a long list of offences, the last of which might be refusing to wear proper uniform. You don't get a lot of misbehaviour from traditionally-dressed Muslim girls (unlike young white boys with NF attitudes).

I am afraid you are puffing these things to be important, but that is just in your mind and that of other supporters of the mob you seem to sympathise with.

Do you know, I actually saw on one of their websites a statement that a white woman was only given Herceptin for her breast cancer because she has a black partner...

Lovely people.

(By the way, it is loco parentis. Loco parenthesis would be mad brackets)

[hastobe]

FYI - The pupil in question had never been in trouble before - and left school with the highest grades in her year. 

The thread was asking about the possible motivation of people who voted

BNP - I have simply cited a few incidents (and there are many more!)

that have happened in our area that could be a contributing factor to

these votes.  On a personal note - my husband took our two young

boys (both under ten) to what was his local park when he was a child,

so they could play on the swings.  They had only been on the

swings for a few minutes before a group of half a dozen asian youths

approached and told him to 'get the **** out of their park - unless he

wanted the kids legs breaking.'  The boys were both

terrified  - it is a public park and the children were just

playing.  That did not induce us to vote BNP - but I can

understand why experiences like that may encourage others....

Hastobe