BNP/FN vote is about rage rather than race

[Dick Smith]

I think he may have meant 'speak FOR Miki'.

[Russethouse]

Could we get back to the topic please ?

I suspect (although I am sure Miki & Dick will disagree) that the popularity of the BNP is something to do with the Conservative party being in a poor state and the main parties, Conservative and Labour being too close in policy at present. (thats if you know what Conservative policy is)

If the Conservative party move to the right, this movement to the BNP may be dissipated. Its the lack of choice and the frustration that it brings that leads to this situation.IMHO

[Just Katie]

What I would like to see from the main parties is a clamp down on assylum seekers and illegal immigrants. 

Immigrants in my opinion are needed for the economy of the country.  Not only to recruit those who are willing to clean toilets but also for the higher ranked jobs such as nursing which for some reason there is difficulty in recruiting british citizens.

However, I am in 'wonderment' as to why Britains' intake of assylum seekers is higher per capita than the likes of France, Germany and even USA.  (I can't remember where I got this info from maybe the Daily Mail and, if I am wrong I will be enlightened to be corrected as it is really bugging me)

I would also, like Quillan like to quote somebody I know personally who worked away from home in London and stayed at a bit of a doss house of a hotel to keep his outgoings low to send home more money to his family.  However, the owner of the hotel turfed all these workers out because more money was to be earned putting up these assylum seekers.  Whilst I understand many of these people are geniune I think the huge majority are on a free meal ticket.  Again please correct me if I am wrong with evidence please (which I admit is more than I have provided)

[Tresco]

[quote user="Russethouse"]If the Conservative party move to the right, this movement to the BNP may be dissipated. Its the lack of choice and the frustration that it brings that leads to this situation.IMHO

[/quote]

It's wierd though isn't it, that one of the BNP's latest slogans is that they are now 'the Labour Party your grandparents voted for', yet they are clearly targetting dejected Tories too. So they are doing their best to appeal to people who would otherwise vote either way. I can't work out whether that is crude, or cunning, or both.

When Miki quoted from 'The Ragged Trousered Philanthropist' (written pre WW1) the other night, and I was reminded that the skilled painters would sit around reading the 'Weekly Obscurer' and ranting in echos of what they read therin, about how 'foreigners' were taking peoples jobs. Then as now, it just wasn't the whole truth, (whether in a novel or a newspaper) or anything like it.

 

[Dick Smith]

Apparently the Daily Wail has got its facts wrong!

At least, according to one refugee support agency:

http://www.refugee-action.org.uk/information/challengingthemyths1.aspx

[Russethouse]

>>It's wierd though isn't it, that one of the BNP's latest slogans is that they are now 'the Labour Party your grandparents voted for', yet they are clearly targeting dejected Tories too. So they are doing their best to appeal to people who would otherwise vote either way. I can't work out whether that is crude, or cunning, or both.<<<

As I see it at least the aims of the BNP are clear, with the Conservatives and Labour party I think the electorate are confused as to who stands for what, and who can blame them when there is talk of sections of the education bill only getting through with opposition support etc.? Whatever my personal sympathies for Charles Kennedy, I really felt Liberal party had a possibility to make progress, provide a real alternative, but it was let slip.

At present , while the battle for the Conservative & Labour parties is for the centre ground  extremist parties of many types could  gain popularity ,but when it comes to a general election ? I suspect that many peoples courage would desert them and they would vote for the 'traditional' parties

KKK a coupe of sites (although the info looks like it is up to 2002)

http://www.ecre.org/factfile/facts.shtml#3

http://www.salaam.co.uk/themeofthemonth/august02_index.php?l=1

[Tresco]

Dick I couldn't get that link to work, so having googled I'm posting a similar link from the same organisation.

http://www.refugee-action.org.uk/information/challengingthemyths3.aspx

[Miki]

"....I suspect (although I am sure Miki & Dick will disagree) that the

popularity of the BNP is something to do with the Conservative party

being in a poor state and the main parties, Conservative and Labour

being too close in policy at present. (thats if you know what

Conservative policy is)

Why the sarcasm, is it the Mods night for it ?

Dick and I have sufficient intelligence to see things the same or

completely differently. Just because we don't agree with one Mod on

here, does that mean all Mods must disagree with us ?

If it was solely anything to do with the Tory's being in a bad state alone, the BNP would be quite massive by now !!!

[Miki]

Nor could I Tresco but I cut and pasted it and it worked OK then.

[Russethouse]

>>If it was solely anything to do with the Tory's being in a bad state alone, the BNP would be quite massive by now !!!<<

Quite - but I didn't say that ! (not the alone bit !) My opinion is that the policies of what, for convenience, we will call the major political parties are too close, people look for alternatives in that situation and smaller factions gain ground.

Now we think we have democracy we like a choice to exercise the right to.

[Miki]

If it was solely anything to do with the Tory's being in a bad state alone, the BNP would be quite massive by now !!!

"...Quite - but I didn't say that ! (not the alone bit !)"

Well it's catching, I didn't say you did, I offered an opinion, that

due to the many years of innefective and very poor Tory policies one

might have expected a somewhat larger increase in the BNP support but

thankfully common sense is never too far from the surface.

Did you or indeed do you play Rugby ? That was a neat side step to avoid the other question.

[Tresco]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

As I see it at least the aims of the BNP are clear...[/quote]

Gay, have you visited their site?

Under policies/aims/our stance etc it is really quite waffly, they don't seem clear after a second glance. The first aim is  'voluntary repatriation, with 'generous incentives' for people who are not 'kindred' to the 'indigenous peoples of these islands'. (selective quoting, from more than one section, but I think it represents their position clearly).

Even in the law and order, eduction, and health sections there are maybe 8 lines for each.  They have 'aims', but no objectives - in other words, how their aims will be achieved.

I do take them seriously.  I read their site regularly, and I don't think 'clear' is a word I would choose to describe what they do there. How it comes across to other people is interesting to me though.

 

[Quillan]

"As per my last post, I may not have been there, just as you were not but someone with better knowledge than he"

See there you go an assumption again. Well actually, funny enough, I was there and I know exactly what he said and what he meant, I paid particular attention because the conversation was so interesting. Who is this person to whom you refer that has greater knowledge than him (him being this Dean chap) because ( I don't mean to offend) I really don’t have a clue to whom you mean. There were also three other people there who totally agreed with the comments the dean made, two from the same university and one from a different university, all held similar senior positions.

And yes I did mean ‘for’, sorry about that.

[Miki]

So this just gets more curious, you were wherever this lecture, meeting

or whatever took place but have not been missing from this site, was it

in your B&B house ? Or was it a while ago whilst on holiday ? 

The chap is one of  my family (if you want to know who, PM me, as

I don't wish his name to be on an open forum like this) and it is part

of his profession, to very much know the proper facts of this kind of

thing. So now we have 3 who agree, adding up eh to

who think that UK Universities are fast tumbling down around our ears with all these Johnny

foreigners taking up our places..................... total and utter bunkum.

Two of us have told you, foreign students ahve long been a large part

of funding....why you ignore so manyactual facts that have been said

totally defeats me, it really does.

I do notice that many of your stories evolve and things quite important

at the start can tend get

put in as and when to suit your posts. I truly wonder about that. I

rmember in your early days how much was left out and slowly things came

to light that were very important to the question but kinda got left

out !!  Anyone else would simply have

said that at a meeting/lecture or such like, the Dean of ....where ever

stated that.................... but no, it suddenly comes to you

later...sorry but I tend to prefer to not take too much notice when

discussions take on bizarre new events that were pretty relevant some

time back.

[Russethouse]

Tresco - I should have put that differently (and its difficult to put what I think without breaking the T &C) I think dislike of anything can be  very unifying and this, it seems to me, is what they seek.

As a party, are they ready or able to represent those they would like to represent ? I doubt it.

 Miki - forgot the Rugby question - sorry its all balls to me........actually that is how I did my shoulder in - I got too close in the scrum and my greater tuberosity cracked under the pressure [:'(]

[Tresco]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

I think dislike of anything can be  very unifying... [/quote]

Yes indeed.

Especially when it's 'dislike', or 'fear' of anything/anyone deemed as 'other'.  That's why I take them seriously, because it's what they work on.  Here's a quote from The Grand Master of Spin. 

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it"

Happy googling.

 

[Miki]

 Miki - forgot the Rugby question -

Well if avoiding answering members questions is how the Mods

see the way forward so be it and if you feel it is OK to have

unneccesary digs such as yours was, then it surely makes it open season the way I read it.

[Russethouse]

I thought you asked if I played rugby ? 

You and I and Dick and I have often demonstrated different views particularly when it comes to politics. I think you are reading something in where nothing was meant. I'm sorry if you misunderstood.

 

 

 

[Iceni]

It has been said that in UK people vote AGAINST rather than FOR in elections. The threat/promise of BNP councillors is a fine argument to oppose "first past the post" and probably universal suffrage as well. Many people follow the Sun and will decide where to make their mark when they see the headlines on the day.

But I should not criticise as I had exercised my right not to vote for some years and, let's face it, my vote never made a difference anyway.

John

not

 

 

[Will]

We had dinner with a couple of British holiday home owners nearby yesterday evening. Coincidentally, he works in rugby administration in England, and she has a bichon frisé, but that's beside the point. What my point is, is that I had the Daily Mail (having worked for its parent company I can recognise it a mile off) quoted to me all night about what a state Britain is supposedly in, and any doubts I expressed were countered by the fact that I would see all of these ills for myself if I went back.

What they probably don't realise is that I do go back on average every 3-4 weeks. So if anything had changed so much in the four years or so that I have lived mainly in France, I think I might have noticed something.

Or maybe it's the rose tinted spectacles thing in reverse?

[SaligoBay]

[quote user="Iceni"]

It has been said that in UK people vote AGAINST rather than FOR in elections. The threat/promise of BNP councillors is a fine argument to oppose "first past the post" and probably universal suffrage as well. [/quote]

Does this not apply to France as well?  Voting for the FN to indicate that they're fed up with everything else?   If that wasn't the case, then there's a worrying number of genuine FN fans around the place.

What do you think of the French presidential election system?   That's first-past-the-post in a different guise.  The first round gives you the first two past the post, then the highest scorer out of those two becomes president.  An extra layer of complication, if you ask me!   Chirac was already the leader in the first round, the second one was a waste of time.

[Miki]

"..........I thought you asked if I played rugby ? "

Yes, well as for that, best say nothing apart from,  yes of course you did....................

"........You and I and Dick and I have often demonstrated different views

particularly when it comes to politics. I think you are reading

something in where nothing was meant. I'm sorry if you misunderstood"

Accepted, we do not agree on politics but as you lot up on high have warned me (along with a strike)

that if there is no smiley, you have told me, that one can only assume

it must have been meant nastily. OK,  don't tell me, I know, one

rule for you and one rule for us mere mortals.

Why can't you take in the reason if I have told you, as to why the

Liberals cannot easily increase their seats ? You still keep harping on

that the Libs missed an opportunity, do you really think they wanted to

simply "miss their opportunity" without a good reason?

[Miki]

Bill,

I all too often get the same thing with holidaymakers. Never asked them about dogs though [:D]

Sure, I suspect some things will have changed, imagine being away in

1983 and coming back in the mid 80's  and finding many mines shut.

If you lived in Surrey then, you wouldn't have suspected anything (well

apart from the relentless drive for money !) but in other parts of the

country, things weren't as welcome as they might have liked.

So what I am saying, in a very roundabout way, is that in the UK there

are many lovely places to live and even better if you don't subscribe

to some of the red tops but naturally, there will be places not so

nice. When Brits move to France, they buy in areas that they see as

"paradise" and again, not near the places that many of us know, would

not fit the bill as to where they wold prefer to live.

So no, not rose coloured glasses really Bill, I think we all know that

the UK has problems in certain area but we are bright enough to know

that there are many areas that are not so nice here as well but trying

to convince some Brits that Britain is surely not all lager louts,

immigration problems etc and all is not as it seems here, all to often

falls on deaf ears.

[Russethouse]

[quote user="Miki"]"..........I thought you asked if I played rugby ? "

Yes, well as for that, best say nothing apart from,  yes of course you did....................

"........You and I and Dick and I have often demonstrated different views particularly when it comes to politics. I think you are reading something in where nothing was meant. I'm sorry if you misunderstood"

Accepted, we do not agree on politics but as you lot up on high have warned me (along with a strike) that if there is no smiley, you have told me, that one can only assume it must have been meant nastily. OK,  don't tell me, I know, one rule for you and one rule for us mere mortals.

Why can't you take in the reason if I have told you, as to why the Liberals cannot easily increase their seats ? You still keep harping on that the Libs missed an opportunity, do you really think they wanted to simply "miss their opportunity" without a good reason?
[/quote]

Lets deal with the political first - OK - you have (privately )given me a reason, how about the other possible Liberal voters ? If I was Josephine Bloggs I would be thinking, 'where were the Liberals when the Conservatives were floundering'? Surely that was the time to press home an advantage. Instead of that we have something of a bad year for the Liberals IMHO.

Mod hat on

By 'you lot' I guess you mean 'the mods' - nowhere in this thread have either Quillan or I referred to our mod status, however all the mods have the right to expect the same degree of courtesy as any other forum member, if you are impolite or commit any other breach of the code of conduct and it involves a mod there is no more reason for any them to put up with it, than anyone else

We are simply not going back to arguing the rights and wrongs of your 'strike' This is a forum for people with an interest in France, and that is what people want to discuss in the main, not forum politics

Mod Hat off

[Miki]

"....Lets deal with the political first - OK - you have

(privately )given me a reason, how about the other possible Liberal

voters ? If I was Josephine Bloggs I would be thinking, 'where

were the Liberals when the Conservatives were floundering'?

Surely that was the time to press home an advantage. Instead of that we

have something of a bad year for the Liberals IMHO."

What  about the other voters?  It is all related, the

message is put over in the normal places TV and papers etc, everyone

gets their share of the voters from that source. Then we have to see what money is in the coffers to do the face to face or door to door

everyday canvassing and  THAT is where the votes needed in a

constituency which is winnable by two (or of course on occasion, three)

of the parties are gained or indeed lost.

So you have Labour and the Tory's on one hand and it is extremely

well documented how much money they pull in and how much they can

afford to pay (either in ex's or by "hiring" footsloggers, poor choice

but apt in many cases) and then you have the Liberals !!

They are sadly, or not, a million miles back in terms of money, foot

soldiers and in general any assistance they require to push home any

such possible advantage. They have to defend what they have and then

still put forces in to the marginals, that leaves them completely and

utterly overstretched to fight all the seats in the manner required, as

that would need all their resources which they simply do not possess at

the present time.

Now if you know of a way they can go forward without having the

neccessary things I have told you to fight on equal terms, do let them

know, as you appear to think you know (by saying they never pressed

home any advantage, I think that qualifies you to therefore have known

what they should have done ! but within their power of course and no

fantasy thoughts please).

Mod hat on

By 'you lot' I guess you mean 'the mods' - nowhere in this

thread have either Quillan or I referred to our mod status, however all

the mods have the right to expect the same degree of courtesy as any

other forum member, if you are impolite or commit any other breach

of the code of conduct and it involves a mod there is no more

reason for any them to put up with it, than anyone else

We are simply not going back to arguing the rights and wrongs

of your 'strike' This is a forum for people with an interest in France,

and that is what people want to discuss in the main, not forum politics

Mod Hat off

Good guess and not

surprisingly, quite correct. No need to mention whether you are Mods is

there,  surely not ? Or are we all to take it, that we are thick

as planks and we don't know who the Mods are ? So you mention that Mods

should expect courtesy but it appears you have forgotten (?) to say

that Members can also expect the same respect from the Mods and that I believe is where too many discrepancies have crept in.

This is a forum for

France but this just happens to be the Post Bag, where other matters,

French or otherwise can be discussed. Just because you don't like some

matters being discussed and I don't mean this one in particular, 

is not the critertia for anyone posting whatever they want, within

reason is it ?

No what I think you

actually mean is, don't mention any wrong things the Mods might

do.............by the way, you mention WE, as has just

been told me to me today, it can often appear that some Mods can act in a

rather renegade fashion and perhaps that is why the consistency varies so much.