BNP/FN vote is about rage rather than race

[Clair]

Follow-up from the comments made by Margaret Hodge about the protest votes the BNP is likely to receive from white working-class disappointed voters...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/

When a similar event took place at the last French presidential elections, France was condemned as an openly racist nation.

Discuss...

[SaligoBay]

[quote user="Clair"]Follow-up from the comments made by Margaret Hodge about the protest votes the BNP is likely to receive from white working-class disappointed voters...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/
When a similar event took place at the last French presidential elections, France was condemned as an openly racist nation.
Discuss...
[/quote]

Which aspect would you like us to discuss, Clair?

France and the UK continuing their mutual mistrust game, or whether France really is a racist nation?

In fact, a lot of similar stuff was said in France at the time of the elections, that votes for the FN were protest votes against the disarray of the Left, and so on, trying to talk the results down.   However, it does seem a bit of an extreme protest to me. 

[Tresco]

[quote user="Clair"]Follow-up from the comments made by Margaret Hodge about the protest votes the BNP is likely to receive from white working-class disappointed voters...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/
When a similar event took place at the last French presidential elections, France was condemned as an openly racist nation.
Discuss...
[/quote]

The 'event' hasn't happened yet! The only event so far is what people said in a survey.[:)]

People talking about who they are contemplating voting for is a very different thing to who they vote for - if they end up voting at all.

The article had some interesting examples of the failing/inadequacies of BNP councillors though. If all these people do vote for the BNP as a 'protest' they could end up with some very chaotic services. [:(]

Do people really still eat Garibaldi Bisuits with their 'afternoon tea'?[;-)]

[SaligoBay]

[quote user="Tresco"]

Do people really still eat Garibaldi Bisuits with their 'afternoon tea'?[;-)]

[/quote]

You see how good life could have been with the BNP in charge from the beginning?   They would have maintained those fine, upstanding traditions like dead-fly biscuits, and afternoon tea on the lawn.

Out with those Patak's sauces.   Send them all to France, where they're really needed!  [:-))] 

[Will]

I have no doubt that a fair proportion of the British white working class (whatever that might represent) - as well as a great many Daily Telegraph readers - could well be described as 'racist' in a liberal sense. The difference in France is that such attitudes do not have to be so hidden. But when political correctness hits la Belle France, as it surely will, then the FN might be swept under the carpet as the BNP is back home, only to be dragged out when the media wants to find somebody to overshadow its own reactionary stance. Not that I would ever vote for either of course, but about a third of our commune of 55 electors voted FN last time.

And a family of distinctly Arabic appearance has just started renting a house up the road...

At least we can buy Patak's sauces in the oriental supermarket not too far away.

[Cerise]

I too find it difficult to believe that people vote for something they don't like as a protest against something they like less.  The FN had a fairly big turnout here too in the last election, but frankly I would say that was because those people are racist.    I'm perhaps a little more sensitive about it than some other people given that I'm married to someone a different colour, but some of things I have heard from villagers here have shocked me to the core.  A perfectly nice neighbour, kindly father and grandfather, who informed that Arab people were 'less than animals' - and he really believes that.  A restaurant locally where the wife is Moroccan and a lady from the village (again normally a perfectly pleasant person) informed me she would  never go there as 'Those people are dirty'.    Yes I would say our village had its fair share of racists and I agree I think it is less 'incorrect' if not less horrible to say those things here than in England.  

In England most people at least pretend not to be too racist and there is indeed a great difference in what people say to a poll and the way they may actually vote.   I don't actually think it is racism for someone to say a country is becoming overcrowded and the number of new immigrants from wherever needs to be limited, but some will always take that in a racist way.

Now Patak's sauces I can find - but come to grief over peshwari nans, if any one knows a source of these I would be grateful.. By the way can you but squashed fly biscuits here?  And doesn't Garbaldi sound a bit foreign anyway??[:)]

[Quillan]

So what is it that Labour have done that has upset the working and middle class?

I think people should take the BNP very seriously, certainly the labour party does and it's got them seriously rattled, which is nice.

Margret Hodge (Employment Minister) - " thousands of white working-class voters were deserting Labour for the BNP in her constituency of Barking, east London. Anger over immigration and asylum seekers was a major factor".

Andy Burham (Home Office) - "it would be wrong to exaggerate the importance of the BNP".

Phil Whoolas (Local Government Minister - "no politician should underestimate the BNP threat".

People did well and made a lot f money under the Tories but saw the pubic services fall in to decline and moved to Labour who would sort out the NHS, education, law and order and pensions. Well they haven’t, there’s more hospitals closing under labour, education is a mess with universities full of foreign students because of the crippling fees charged to UK students and they can't afford it, Law well it's a joke and as for the pensions the government have taxed them so much now that companies are dropping the final pension schemes like red hot coals. So I think people just can't see an alternative to labour with the main stream parties (even conservative voters are fed up with the conservative party) so they will pick on bizarre parties like the BNP.

In Barking, a BNP councillor stood down after eight months, telling his local paper: "Those meetings go right over my head and there's little point in me being there." . Well having been to a council meeting once in East Ham I would say that around 90% or the councillors attending didn't understand what was going on and I half suspect it's the same in many a town hall up and down the country so a least this guy was honest enough to admit it.

As to France being more racist than the UK, I don’t think so. I think the UK is very racist but it’s a bit like sex in the 1800’s it’s just not talked about in public so we don’t know who is and who isn’t. The French don’t care they are not as PC as the English and will talk about it openly so we all know they are.

[SaligoBay]

[quote user="Cerise"]

A perfectly nice neighbour, kindly father and grandfather, who informed that Arab people were 'less than animals' - and he really believes that.  A restaurant locally where the wife is Moroccan and a lady from the village (again normally a perfectly pleasant person) informed me she would  never go there as 'Those people are dirty'.    Yes I would say our village had its fair share of racists and I agree I think it is less 'incorrect' if not less horrible to say those things here than in England.  

[/quote]

I said to someone recently (and again, a very nice person) that I'd like to learn Arabic, and she just couldn't believe why I would EVER want to learn that "saleté" of a language, and who could I possibly want to speak to with it anyway.  [:(]

In the UK, Mr SB used to go to the pub down the road (a rough place!) sometimes to watch the footie on the big screen, and he said he just had to ignore the shocking racism.   And we're talking banana skins on the pitch level here.  I, on the other hand, spent my time either working in a large computer company, where never a racist or sexist word was uttered, because it just wasn't the done thing, or in "folk" circles, and they mostly just don't do that stuff anyway.

So yes, it certainly exists in Britain, but not in all circles.   Par contre, it does seem to pop up almost everywhere you go in France.

IMHO. [;-)]

[Teamedup]

I believe in voting, I really do believe in doing it. And then the shock last time when so many had voted for the FN in the first tour and I could understand why people were wanting to protest but sadly it ended up by them voting that way. If it was supposed to be a wake up call to the other parties, then the politicians seem to have misread  what the wake up call meant.  

 

I imagine that it could happen in the UK and the BNP could get lots of votes too. How the other politicians will react to such a 'threat' I can't imagine, dare I hope intelligently.

[Miki]

Yes, in a FEW areas only, the BNP will gain seats, just as has happened

here and if my memory serves me better, if as someone thinks, 

there is less racism here

and certain things can easily be seen to be related, then how come Mr

Le Pen does and continues to do SO very much better here than their

counterparts in the UK?  Many, many areas will have no axe to

grind whatsoever with racism, SOME areas are renowned hot spots,

so nothing new there really.

"......education is a mess with universities full of foreign students because

of the crippling fees charged to UK students and they can't afford it"

As for the quote that education is in a mess and Universities are over

run with foreigners (I take it that means non British) can that person

tell me how he arrives at that ? with facts please (no red top rubbish

allowed ) A  close family member is very integrated in 

political life, has and continues to be extremley involved with

Universities in the UK, having once been President of the Students

Union at his Uni as well as once being the Welfare officer there. This

is a total fabrication of the truth, true students are being saddled

with often large debts, wrongly in my opinion but who or whatever gave

one the opinion that Universities are full of foreign students to the detriment of British entrants ? As one

can take it you are not on the spot and have had no involvement

whatsoever in these matters, then at best it has come from what can

only be described as a  personal view or perhaps a very dubious

journalistic report.

As to France being more racist than the UK, I don’t think so. I

think the UK is very racist but it’s a bit like sex in the

1800’s it’s just not talked about in public so we

don’t know who is and who isn’t. The French don’t

care they are not as PC as the English and will talk about it openly so

we all know they are.

Oh I think the British are far far more open than that, I have friends

who simply say "we have to make the best of it all and that's it" to

others who will openly say "it has gone too far" and others (mostly non

friends I have to say) I have all too often heard say "send 'em all

back"

That will be the day when the majority of Brit says nothing, met very

few Brits who didn't have an opinion, including all of us on LF Forum !

[Quillan]

As for the quote that education is in a mess and Universities are over run with foreigners (I take it that means non British) can that person tell me how he arrives at that ?

I don't see why I need to tell you but I will, it's quote from Peter N. McWilliam, Dean and Professor of Cardiovascular Physiology and Pro-Dean for Learning and Teaching, School of Healthcare, Leeds University. He also said that the Labour Party had ruined the Universities in the UK by allowing the Tory education policies to continue. Leeds university uses it's facilities, 'spin out companies', tuition fees from overseas students to generate some £6M per year to fund research and English students through the universtity who otherwise could not afford to attend.

Oh I think the British are far far more open than that, I have friends who simply say "we have to make the best of it all and that's it" to others who will openly say "it has gone too far" and others (mostly non friends I have to say) I have all too often heard say "send 'em all back"

Saying 'send them all back' does not always make a person racist, it's the terms like Nigger, Coon, Wog, Black Bastard (examples only, no offence ment) etc that cause deep offense and carry the highest penalties which if spoken in public can lead to arrest and at work instant dismissal, so they are said in private or simply just thought.

[Ron Avery]

So one lecturer out of 100's says something,  it becomes a fact does it?  Readig some of the stuff in this thread is like reading the Daily Express, short on facts,  big on unsubstantiated rumour and scare mongering. Please stop quoting from the Tory hymn book, its like listening to a prospective Tory candidate, same old mantra, "all together now Failing schools, failing NHS etc etc."

So the UK NHS is in crisis Quillan, is it really?  When was the last time anyone you know was treated in the UK then?  My mum was in Barnsley General last month and she was full of praises for the treatment on the NHS she got and she votes Tory[:P].  Ask yourself this, who runs the press in the UK?  In whose interests is it to rubbish the achievements of the Government?  The right wing press know  that the real improvements in the NHS, for example the investment and the real reduction in waiting times etc is Labour's trump card that is why the Tory press are focusing on it. trying to undermine what has actually been achieved in advance of the UK local elections, 

One comment on the BNP, they are right in some ways about the threat to the traditions of the UK by a multi cultural society and diversity, there have been significant changes to areas of East London brought about by immigration, but the accommodation was only there because all the white people moved out of the areas years ago..  The other problem the BNP have apart from it really only having one policy ( Send them all back to where they came from)  is who is going to clean the stations and the toilets and empty the bed pans in the care homes for the minimum wage after all those who  now do it  have gone "home", not any of the people moaning that the immigrants have taken all our jobs, that is for sure. 

Getting back to France, if anyone thinks that the average rural white Frenchman has any more tolerance for immigration from Africa to France  than UK residents have for immigration from Kosovo and Albania is kidding themselves, the difference is that there is not 10%+ unemployment in the UK and Frenchmen are actually seeing jobs taken by immigrants.  I bet you Le Penn increases his share of the vote next time.[:(]

[Miki]

Miki : As for the quote that education is in a mess and Universities are over run with foreigners (I take it that means non British) can that person tell me how he arrives at that ?

Quillan : I don't see why I need to tell you

but I will, it's quote from Peter N. McWilliam, Dean and Professor of

Cardiovascular Physiology and Pro-Dean for Learning and Teaching,

School of Healthcare, Leeds University. He also said that the Labour

Party had ruined the Universities in the UK by allowing the Tory

education policies to continue. Leeds university uses it's facilities,

'spin out companies', tuition fees from overseas students to

generate some £6M per year to fund research and English students

through the universtity who otherwise could not afford to attend.

Miki : Oh I do think we should be told, if indeed it was not you,

otherwise you would be lumbered with talking this nonsense on your own.

Your words were  :

Quillan "......education is a mess with universities full of foreign students because

of the crippling fees charged to UK students and they can't afford it"

Your reading of all that from a Dean at

Leeds,  in no way adds up to your OTT post above. Overseas

students

have, for as long as I can remember, been a neccesary form of revenue

for most, if not all Universities. It does not mean, that Universities

are just simply taking them all in and filling UK Universities

with  non British students. Methinks this Prof has ulterior

motives and perhaps speaks from his point of not having the neccessary

entrants he would lik because what he says is not generally inline with

what I am told and his

subject is a rather specialised one, to say the least.

And what an extremely strange response to my post about how Le Pen had

taken so much ground, whilst Britain had not gained anywhere near the

seats that Mr Le Pen had gained. That was my point, as to why France was

perhaps easily seen as more racist.

Send them all back of course is not racist !! Alf

Garnett could never be accused of being racial, when he said  send 'em all back eh ! There are many words that can spell racist,

picking on the one I said purely as an example of what i had heard, is rather bizarre I must

say and one I am sure anyway,  if shouted loud enough would most

certainly be called very racist.

[Dick Smith]

"saw the pubic services fall in to decline"

Is that REALLY what you meant?

Education in this country is in nothing like the mess some elements would have you believe. And if it is, the above quote might suggest that it has been in decline for some time!

Education (schools) is actually in a better state than for some time, although there are concerns in primaries and with some groups. At least these are now concerns, after being ignored for years, and money is being spent to solve some of the problems.

I listened to a long interview on Radio 4 this morning about foreign students at universities. First of all it is a long tradition, and secondly how do you have internationally recognised centres of excellence (the LSE was given as an example) without taking overseas students?

The Dean is making a different political point entirely, about student tuition fees.

[Quillan]

So one lecturer out of 100's says something,  it becomes a fact does it?  Readig some of the stuff in this thread is like reading the Daily Express, short on facts,  big on unsubstantiated rumour and scare mongering. Please stop quoting from the Tory hymn book, its like listening to a prospective Tory candidate, same old mantra, "all together now Failing schools, failing NHS etc etc.

Do please read it properly Dick and don't miss quote, he is a Dean not a lecturer and how many university deans are there in the UK 100's you say.

I quoted a man, nothing else, no tory stuff, no Daily Express, just a man. I also said that he blamed Labour for not sorting out the Tory mess so I guess he is not a particularly a political animal.

So the UK NHS is in crisis Quillan, is it really?  When was the last time anyone you know was treated in the UK then? 

Four years ago and my wife two.

My mum was in Barnsley General last month and she was full of praises for the treatment on the NHS she got and she votes Tory.

She would do in Barnsley, I believe, quoting from the Health Minister on TV at lunchtime today that they have had a couple of new hospitals in that neck of the woods. She also said about the amount of beds they intend to close over the next couple of years. Perhaps somebody taped it and can give you a copy to see, Channel 4 News at lunchtime. Try the east end of London and see what type of service you get there. Try Canterbury where they closed beds because they run out of money and the polititions wouldn't give them anymore.

Ask yourself this, who runs the press in the UK?  In whose interests is it to rubbish the achievements of the Government?  The right wing press know  that the real improvements in the NHS, for example the investment and the real reduction in waiting times etc is Labour's trump card that is why the Tory press are focusing on it. trying to undermine what has actually been achieved in advance of the UK local elections, 

Anyone can fiddle figures. They close waiting lists because they run out of money. The waiting list is scrapped till they get more money in the next financial year then they start again by opening a new waiting list. You really ought to read a less socialist biased paper. The Tories have their press to peddle lies and so to the Labour party.

One comment on the BNP, they are right in some ways about the threat to the traditions of the UK by a multi cultural society and diversity, there have been significant changes to areas of East London brought about by immigration, but the accommodation was only there because all the white people moved out of the areas years ago.

Well I thought that but it's actually wrong. The East end of London has always had imigrant settlements going back to roman times because it was a port. It's just that brown and black people stick out more than white people. There have been black people around in London since before the war. In fact American troops were told about this prior to coming to the UK for the invasion. Many could not understand why they didn's have seperate bus's and seats at the movies etc for the blacks.

The other problem the BNP have apart from it really only having one policy ( Send them all back to where they came from)  is who is going to clean the stations and the toilets and empty the bed pans in the care homes for the minimum wage after all those who  now do it  have gone "home", not any of the people moaning that the immigrants have taken all our jobs, that is for sure. 

I don't think people moan about them taking jobs it's more that they are in the UK and appear to be doing nothing yet taking money and houseing from the state without putting anything back which is different probably to France although I don't know much about it hear other than by observation.

Getting back to France, if anyone thinks that the average rural white Frenchman has any more tolerance for immigration from Africa to France  than UK residents have for immigration from Kosovo and Albania is kidding themselves, the difference is that there is not 10%+ unemployment in the UK and Frenchmen are actually seeing jobs taken by immigrants.  I bet you Le Penn increases his share of the vote next time.

I think you ment there is 10% more unemployment in France than in the UK and yes I think you are right.

[Quillan]

"And what an extremely strange response to my post about how Le Pen had taken so much ground, whilst Britain had not gained anywhere near the seats that Mr Le Pen had gained. That was my point, as to why France was perhaps easily seen as more racist."

Sorry I wasn't, as you could see I was reply to the other points you made.

"Methinks this Prof has ulterior motives and perhaps speaks from his point of not having the neccessary entrants he would lik[e]"

I don't remember him saying that, where was that then?

[Dick Smith]

"Do please read it properly Dick and don't miss

quote, he is a Dean not a lecturer and how many university deans are

there in the UK 100's you say."

Do please read it properly, Quillan, and who is Miss Quote? It was Ron or Miki who said that, not me. And Deans are lecturers in a real sense, of course. And yes, there are probably hundreds of them. And please don't be so patronising when your posts are so riddled with mistakes.

The Dean's point was (he says laboriously) that university fees mean that UK students can't afford to go, so universities fill up with overseas students. This is not a comment about overseas students as much as a comment about charging fees. But this has always been true of Russell Group universities, they have always been popular with foreign students.

Or, possibly, he is making this point in order to gain some other outcome. People do that all the time, you know.

[Miki]

But you see, at the same time as quoting this Dean fellow and by posting his views, you said :

".....I quoted a man, nothing else, no tory stuff, no

Daily Express, just a man. I also said that he blamed Labour for not

sorting out the Tory mess so I guess he is not a particularly a

political animal."

Nothing else ? You made all this out of this nothing else the man said though !!

"......education is a mess with universities full of foreign students because

of the crippling fees charged to UK students and they can't afford it"

Now I am right though aren't I, that you sided with this chap but now

say you are saying you only quoted him !! You did more than that, you

went OTT based

purely on what this person said. We all like to use quotes that may

help our view but this chap was not speaking for all the UK Uni's, read

my last post as for why.

[Miki]

"Methinks this Prof has ulterior motives and perhaps speaks

from his point of not having the neccessary entrants he would like"

Quillan : I don't remember him saying that, where was that then?

Miki : Dearie me, do please read it all a little slower....

Miki : "Methinks (meaning that I think) this Prof has ulterior motives (meaning that is what I believe him to have) and perhaps speaks from his point (and perhaps means just that)

Or, as Dick said, people do have other motives.................

So you see Quillan, you don't have to bother to remember, cause he didn't say that. I read it all between the lines..........

Miki : "And what an extremely strange response to my post about how

Le Pen had taken so much ground, whilst Britain had not gained anywhere

near the seats that Mr Le Pen had gained. That was my point, as to why

France was perhaps easily seen as more racist."

Quillan : Sorry I wasn't, as you could see I was reply to the other points you made.

Miki : Then perhaps you will now see the point I have made, might be quite valid, no ?

[Quillan]

Miki : "Methinks (meaning that I think) this Prof has ulterior motives (meaning that is what I believe him to have) and perhaps speaks from his point (and perhaps means just that).

Thank you for clarifying your train of thought. You weren’t actually there when he said it were you, I know you don't even know the man so what gives you the right to interpret something he has said and imply by some hyper intelligence that he actually meant something else but just didn’t tell anyone. I just said what he said and didn't write what I thought he might or might not have thought at the time, unlike your self I would not be so presumptuous. He said what he said and he meant what he said.

Do you have to try and twist everything people say or is it just me you want to pick on.

 

[Dick Smith]

I think (and it is getting very hard to find phrases simple enough to explain this) that both Miki and I are saying that

• Not everything people say to newspapers is true, it might be that they are serving some other agenda.
• One person does not represent the whole of a particular group, especially when self-selected.
• The Dean SAID that it was partly about tuition fees (READ what he said).

Your post is, I think, sarcastic and rude in tone. I would moderate my language, were I you.

[Miki]

Jeepers, what are you on about man !!. He said it and you backed him up

with your strong words, come on stop sliding away from that fact, with

weird and bizarre attempts at attacking to defend your completely wrong

stance on University life in the UK.You quite sadly, sided with the

chap and you weren't there when he said

it either !! Methinks is what I thought, is it right ?  Well

methinks so,

you don't, simple really.

If the criteria, is that one had to be present at all times, when

anything is said, it would be a very strange world indeed, we wouldn't

have this forum for a start !!

But some of us did not like the way you quite loudly said that

Universities were down the pan and it was all for foreigners (please

allow a little literary licence there but that is a good basis of what

you said). So a quick

call to someone who knows these things ended up in "Who the hell said

that then" I gave the name you offered and I have to say, by the

reply given, that my thoughts along with Ron and Dick, appear to be

quite well founded.

Pick on you, get away. You were the one that brought up a subject that

some of us disagreed quite strongly with. Are we allowed to do that

to a Mod, (and one who appears at this time to have his hat off) or is

that now not allowed as well ?

[Quillan]

[quote user="Dick Smith"]I think (and it is getting very hard to find phrases simple enough to explain this) that both Miki and I are saying that

• Not everything people say to newspapers is true, it might be that they are serving some other agenda.

• One person does not represent the whole of a particular group, especially when self-selected.

• The Dean SAID that it was partly about tuition fees (READ what he said).

Your post is, I think, sarcastic and rude in tone. I would moderate my language, were I you.
[/quote]

I said something that I quoted from a person because I was asked to reveil my source. I have done that.

I never mentioned the papers because that was not the source. You emplied that all Tory papers told lies, I said that all papers told lies so now you agree as well.

 How dare you assume that it is one person who holds this view, how do you know, have you asked ALL the rest. I happen to know of three that hold exactly the same view but thats all I know, I can't speak for the rest and neither can you. Sarcastic I apologise for but I will not be told things were said when they weren't by somebody that was not even there. What you think of my posts is up to you and what I think of your posts on this matter is up to me, I happen I feel very much you are talking down to me like a child and with total disrespect for me as an individual because I have different views to you. And as you have clearly taken it apon yourself to speak Miki my responce to him would be the same. Funny I make one post in this thread and the rest is taken up by you two having a go at me.

[Dick Smith]

Perhaps two of us are 'having a go at you' because we BOTH think you are wrong.

Do you not see how ridiculous what you are saying is? It isn't just one person, it's three! BUT HE ISN"T SAYING WHAT YOU SAY HE IS!

Read it, man, read for meaning. I would explain your fallacious thinking to you but on current form you wouldn't understand.

If you were a child I would have been a lot harder on you for this. But then I expect a bit more than this from them.

"And as you have clearly taken it apon yourself to speak Miki my responce to him would be the same."

Can you please tell me what this is supposed to mean? That isn't talking down, that is asking for you to have the good manners to write in English.

[Miki]

Now I am beginning to see how Alice felt !!

YOU sided with the chap, like it or not, that is exactly what you did.

He said something and you blow it out of proportion and since then, you

have twisted and turned each way. Lay down man, you are getting

paranoid. Told by someone who wan't there, you say, goodness is your command of

the English language so bad that you can't comprehend the word

"methinks".

As per my last post, I may not have been there, just as you were

not but someone with better knowledge than he, disagrees entirely,

that'll do for me. You stick with some Dean from Leeds who, as I said

before, his very subject is a pretty rare one, which leads me back to

why I believe (methinks again) he has uttered those words.

You really must get off this thing you have, that if someone is not

there, they cannot utter a view, which was of course, what started all

this. Your taking in of his words and offering them in your own

interpretation to this thread (and I guess you weren't in the room when

he uttered them ?) is OK with me, I certainly don't agree, so I said

so.....it's a forum eh !

What's funny about it ? You can give it out but when challenged start

looking for reasons why ? Well, just think of it as being totally wrong

on this occasion, that's all................

"......And as you have clearly taken it apon yourself to speak Miki "

Oh and when did Dick clearly contact me about this ?