School Dinners

[Gardian]

Just watched the Jamie Oliver update programme on his attempts to change the culture in the UK.  There is a point about France to this, so stick with me while I rant for a few moments.

I appreciate that he's not to everybody's taste and some will say that all this 'School Dinner' thing is simply a vehicle for publicising JO.  Personally, I think that he's hit on a national scandal that needed exposing: quite apart from the nutritional importance of something halfway decent for kids, there's more than anecdotal evidence of the serious behaviourial effects of many processed foods and drinks on youngsters.

Anyway, I think that the County Education Depts (it's them, & if it's not them, what are they there for?) need to get a grip on what has already started to come down from Govt and ensure that things start to happen. It's more than 'banning salt in schools' (though that's a start), it's getting funding to re-instate a decent school meals service for the kids.  I am fairly confident in saying that there has been a total lack of investment over the years, to the point where many schools which are even trying to offer a service, are operating with knackered equipment which would have been condemned years ago in any professional kitchen.

Back to France. Most mornings when I pop in to our local fruit & veg place in the village, there's a lady taking away the supplies for the Primary school kitchen across the way.  Loads of carrots, salad, green veg, fruit, all bought that morning at Cavaillon or Orange market.  I could stand corrected, but I doubt that anyone supplies 'Turkey Twizzlers'.          

 

[BJSLIV]

There have been a number of mini-scandals concerning French school meals. In the smaller towns and villages things may be OK, but in the larger places the cooking is in the hands of the mass caterers. I seem to recall that at the time of mad cow disease there were real concerns about the low grade meat being imported specifically for use in school dinners. It came down to exactly the same issues identified by JO , school  authorities glady falling upon whichever caterer tenderd the meals at the lowest price.

[Dick Smith]

It's been a few years since I had a school meal in France (and a few hours since I had one in England!) but the quality was way beyond what we would expect in the UK. Cooked in the college, fresh produce (except for the tinned beans) and well balanced. The danger is, as you say, the mass caterers. In the UK the last government made tendering-out for school meals compulsory and schools had to take the lowest bid. So old-style school kitchens and the old-style school cooks who worked in them went to the wall. Our (UK) caterers are not yet meeting the new nutritional guidelines, they only move when threatened, and costs continue to rise all the time. We still sell fizzy drinks (but not diet ones), greasy sausage rolls, pizza slices etc. Surely it hasn't got that bad in France in the last few years?

[Chancer]

I had grown to hate Jamie Oliver, (too much of a mockney -nowottimeen?) but a friend (who had lived in france for 20 years before returning to the UK) told me about how good the last series was; which I had missed whilst travelling before coming to France.

Tonight I found myself clapping him out loud, it contrasted so much with what I have seen in France and also the general behaviour of even the "troubled" youths here.

My French teachers children attend a small primary school without kitchen but the community lays on a bus (with a guardian) to take them to and from the municipal restuaraunt/canteen each day for a proper lunch, it also takes them there after school if the parents are not able to collect them on time.

[BJSLIV]

For those with broadband this clip gives an insight into how they get the meat for school dinners.

http://www.lelombrik.net/videos/3201/fabrication-du-steak.html

 

[Pads]

A few years ago I worked for an agency as a Temp Chef(going last minute in to places where for some reason the chef couldnt get there) One day I was called to go to a junior school as the dinner lady had been taking to hospital. I arrived early to get my bearings. There was a note on the table (from the head mistress) telling me 2 helpers would arrive at 11am in time to serve ect, and a list of the things, amounts that needed to be taking out of the freezer. I could not move through the rubbish and clutter everywhere and quickly realised that the place was filthy, some of the trays i was to use for cooking(A word i use lighty) had rust on them. I checked the menu for the day, sausages, pizza, meat pies, with chips mash(instant) and tinned peas or beans with mixture sponge with jam spread on top and custart or tin fruit and ice cream there was fruit (apples or bananas) but they where so old I wouldnt of eaten them. I stood there with this piece of paper in my hand in total shock for a good ten minutes, be fore going to find the head mistress. I brought her back to the kitchen to show her how filthy the place was and asked her if she really expected me to cook food for children here. She was gob smacked. At me pulling her up not the state of the place.But I had put her in a corner so she had to do some thing. so she said I had free rein to do what I thought was best. So I rang my agency to explain they sent me 2 cleaners, then I rang a resturant where I worked a lot and asked them if they could make me jacket spuds salad quiche, fresh  fruit salad, and deliver it in time for lunch, which they did . Then the 2 helpers turned up while I was waiting for the cleaners and food. Most miffed that I hadnt started yet, and they only served so they wernt going to help me start cooking. They then lit fags made tea and sat down at the kitchen table. They were dressed in filthy clothes and hair every where. I asked them to go out side with there fags and pointed to a sign saying no smoking, I thought they were going to hit me. When They came back in I explained that we would be spending the day cleaning not cooking . they went straight in to the headmistress who told them to go home . So i was left on my own serving 100 kids lunch, luckerliy the cleaners where great and helped and i also pulled in the head and a teacher. The resulting bill came to 1,500 pounds out of school funds, I later found out the staff where sacked and new put in , but where they any better who knows? I thought these places where checked by the health people. I think they missed this one  

[Mistral]

I was amuised to see that M6 is showing a new series with Cyril Lignac. He was the one who did a series called "oui chef" based on a JO programme last year. This year he is going into school cantines and telling them where they have gone wrong. (sound familiar?) Of course, this being France he is more worried about making the meals varied and interesting than getting rid of the deep fat fryer. Apparently he had a few failures at first before he worked out what kids would actually try and eat. http://www.m6.fr/cms/display.jsp?id=p2_356250

A lot of French schools are served from a central cantine. The food is prepared there and delivered to the schools to be reheated. In our town, this is organised by an outside caterer for the primary schools (and for some unknown reason, my husband's collège) My school has its own chef who cooks from fresh. It's the CA who decides the budget and the menu but  the chef makes all the difference. the one before was useless, she could calculated quantities and there always seemed to be a lot of tins in the bins out the back.

 

[Chris Head]

I spent a week working at the school my two boys go to and had lunch every day with the teachers, the food was fantastic!

Chris

[Alexis]

Yes, I saw that Cyril was to do another J.O. style programme.  He is working with that nutritionalist who's name escapes me...probably because I didn't read your link, Mistral.

I see that the Mothers passing chips through the railings at the school in South Yorkshire have stopped for the time being.  I hadn't realised that the children at this school had two, half hour breaks instead of the old lunch hour.  One at 11.00 and the other 13.00.  They weren't allowed to leave the school premises. 

Is this usual in the UK now?  Stop them trailing about but what if someone lived close and wanted to go home for their lunch? 

Forbidden?

[Lollie]

I must admit I only saw the last 15 mins of this programme, but since when were pubs an authority on food? must of the pubs I have eaten in serve evrything with chips and peas! and served with alcohol.

I also thought Tony Blair agreed to a certain amount of money and asked him to prepare a presentation for the rest, assuming that will be ready by the time he has gone maybe?

But JO went on about he had agreed to everything.

I saw the first series and thought the issuie of low pay to the canteen staff was good.  Did they ever get a large national payrise? 

Lollie

[YCCMB]

I have followed this avidly (the JO school meals saga) both as a parent and just because I found it fascinating. I'm not a perfect parent, nor even a cordon bleu cook, but watching with my teenagers I just kept saying "Is it really like this at your school?" and "Do you know people who eat like that?" and was stunned when they said "Yes" to both questions.  In fact, my eldest son said that some of his friends thought he was a bit of a freak because he ate veg or salad every day! I will NEVER forget some of the things said about the health of the kids in Greenwich by a hospital consultant, who had the unenviable and entirely avoidable task of treating some of the illnesses and disorders brought about directly by poor diet. Even here, I couldn't possibly bring myself to repeat some of the most shocking revelations, but I found it almost impossible to believe that kids so young could be suffering so much from illnesses which were directly related to their diet, and yet their parents both wanted and encouraged their children to want to maintain the status quo. My youngest son, who would like to work in the catering industry and possibly become a chef, idolises JO, but (and I won't bore you with the details) the problems and issues he's had trying to pursue his chosen course of study in order to achieve this almost beggar belief! I only mention this because I think it shows how little importance is given to teaching kids about nutrition, diet and how to cook, which, if the situation is allowed to continue, will mean that the next generation are unlikely to be equipped to break the cycle.

[SaligoBay]

[quote user="BJSLIV"]but in the larger places the cooking is in the hands of the mass caterers. [/quote]

Beurk yes, and it's hideous!   The menu looks good (although there's no choice, just one dish each day), but the reality is usually unidentifiable "meat" swimming in greasy stuff.  [+o(]   It smells like mass catering too.  Double [+o(]

They can't even get the steak hâché right.   The first ones in get them almost raw, the last ones get them carbonised. 

And it costs over 3 euros a day! 

I swear they'd enjoy a McDo better!  [:D]

[Deimos]

I visited the UK this summer and one thing that shocked me was how large (overweight) people and children are compared to France. True France has some overweight people but on balance, when wandering around the place the UK seems to have a large proportion of people who are significantly overweight whereas in France far more people are of a sensible healthy build.

Maybe it was having been away for a few years and having got used to the people around in the local towns and cities that made it a bigger shock. I'm sure things have not got that much worse in the few years I've been away and that its just the comparison.

Whilst there are Fast Food places in France, I have not noticed the same number of the places on high streets in the middle of towns and cities (but I cannot claim experience of loads of different cities here). Do French children seek fast food/burgers/chips/sugar/etc in the same quantities and frequency as UK children seem to ?

(And I cannot tolerate Jamie Oliver so have no idea about what he gets up to - except for his daft association with Tony Blair that got more money for school dinners yet no "new money" - thus the funding had to come from existing budgets meaning cut backs in teachers, books, maintenance, etc. - he fell for that one "hook, line and sinker. But then I cannot stand the guy so my attitude might be biased).

Ian

[Dick Smith]

[quote user="Deimos"](And I cannot tolerate Jamie Oliver so have no idea about what he gets up to - except for his daft association with Tony Blair that got more money for school dinners yet no "new money" - thus the funding had to come from existing budgets meaning cut backs in teachers, books, maintenance, etc. - he fell for that one "hook, line and sinker. But then I cannot stand the guy so my attitude might be biased).

Ian[/quote]

Umm, any evidence for cutbacks in other budgets, Ian? I hate to bring real life into this diatribe, but I haven't seen any in our school, or heard of anyone firing teachers to pay for the chicken wraps. In fact the worry is that some schools have used funds for meals for other purposes, but they probably don't say that in the Daily Mail.

Why can't you tolerate him? He's a success and he spends time doing good for which he doesn't get paid, and he is quite popular with the general public.

Oh, now I see...

[Deimos]

The thing with the budgets was that the politicians said more money allocated for school dinners yet to come from existing school budgets (no new/additional money"). Thus, give that there was more money to be spent on school dinners and no additional funding there must (by my logic) be less money for other things schools were previously spending money on. If you have £20 per day and increase spending from £2 per day to £3 per day on something this means you have £1 less to spend on everything else (ignore the numbers as I know that the cost of a school dinner is pitifully small).

Don't understand what the Daily Mail has to do with it ?

As for my dislike of him - just cannot tolerate him. One day he is showing how to "cook" fish finger sandwiches on a TV cooking show and the next he is going on about healthy eating in Sainsbury adverts. He also seems quite popular in France - a small stationers in my local town that also sells a few books has several of his "coffee table" books (though no idea if they are in English or translated) not much of an British population here).

Ian

[Miki]

[quote] (And I cannot tolerate Jamie Oliver so have no idea about what he gets

up to - except for his daft association with Tony Blair that got more

money for school dinners yet no "new money" - thus the funding had to

come from existing budgets meaning cut backs in teachers, books,

maintenance, etc. - he fell for that one "hook, line and sinker. But

then I cannot stand the guy so my attitude might be biased).[/quote]

You have no idea what he gets up to...????????

Oh well, what better way is there  to judge someone then ? 

To know nothing about him, no idea what he is about but don't like him,

in fact cannot stand him and as for his daft association with the

numero uno in the UK..... so that's your judgement done and dusted

then....totally ridiculous.

Far better to simply say, "don't like him" and sign off, we might then

at least think you have delved deeply to come up with a satisfactory

reason. What is so daft about it ? So he goes to to the top for

whatever ?..Publicity for himself, a meaningful need to better school

dinners, whatever it is, the bottom line will hopefully be that kids

will get better fare for their lunch, if not, he has failed and then

what will that do to his credibilty?

It is a two edged sword and one fact is, he had no need to do it for

publicity, he can do that in a million different ways and certainly not

in this way, which can mean being pilloried not just by the parents,

the schools, the dinner ladies and so on but by folks who by their own

admission do not like him nor even know how he is operating on this, so

he gains what ? Well again, hopefully an inheritance that kids should

not be fed muck and preferably healthier food.

http://www.jamieoliver.com/schooldinners/manifesto

Knock it, ridicule it.................... anyone got any better ideas ?

No ?  Well let's all keep our fingers crossed that JO can get his

10 year plan through to fruition because if he doesn't, we may well be

left with the alternative and the likes of our Deimos to sort it

out........................or not !

I have no idea how the money is being raised, well only on what I heard

last night, which did not mention it, in the way Deimos has stated, so

could you let me have the details of where I can read all that.

[Deimos]

Sorry Miki, Dick asked why I could not tolerate him so I answered. You may not agree - fine. No need to start being nasty because I say I don't like somebody. I openly admitted that my opinion might be subject to bias and the comment was a small addition to a general observation and guess what, Dick and Miki started leaping on what I post yet again.

Give it a rest. You are saying more about yourself than anything else.

Ian

[YCCMB]

Miki, well said. Maybe if there were a few more "celebrity" chefs like JO (like him OR loathe him) who seek (if that's what you choose to believe) to make a shameless publicity stunt out of trying to get people to eat better, then Ian may observe fewer clinically obese people walking round on his future return visits to the UK.

Oh, and in order to enlighten Ian as to what JO has been "up to", he has also carried on a scheme he implemented a few years ago (another TV series and shameless publicity stunt?) where teenagers with no jobs or qualifications, and sometimes from difficult backgrounds are helped to take up careers in catering. Still, if you don't like it, there's always "Ready Steady Cook". Now that Ainsley Harriott's a diamond bloke.

[Deimos]

Different people like or dislike others. There is not always a reason. People in the public eye tend to evoke stronger like or dislike reactions from people. Take Thatcher for example. Some think she was excellent, others could not stand her. There is not always logic to how different people react to others - its just life.

Everybody has the right to their attitudes and I just stated mine. I am not alone in my opinion of Jamie Oliver and recognise that others feel differently. It's really not a big deal. There are more important things in life as to my personal opinion of Jamie Oliver yet it seems to start such a strong reaction from others. I do find this difficult to understand.

Ian

[YCCMB]

I can only speak for myself. I don't really mind whether you like JO or MHT, or even whether you think Saddam Hussein was an all-round good bloke. You said "I have no idea what he's been up to" so I thought I'd explain. Although it would seem from your subsequent post that you have more idea what he's been up to than you let on.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

It is quite

instructive to consider how on earth Mr Oliver (like him or loath him – me, I’m

very fond of his recipe for fish pie) managed to achieve this revolution in the

approach to school meals. Governments,

after all, are not that open to petitions from the electorate once off the campaign

trail, and when he started he had very little actual public support (though

that quickly arrived once people began listening to what he was saying).

 Personally,

I think what we saw here was one of the most astute bits of politics in

years.

 The

scenario: the government, quite reasonably, was becoming concerned

about levels of obesity amongst the young. The cost of treating these

(potentially) millions of people for diet induced disease only a little later in life could

be staggering. But what to do about it? Increasingly, nationalists have become

concerned about the levels of certain calorie rich but (otherwise) nutritionally

poor ingredients in the diet of the young – for example, high fructose corn

syrups (hfcs) and palm oil (a vegetable oil with a higher saturated fat content

than lard).

 These

ingredients are very cheap and appear in all kinds of low-cost, high profit

processed foods where they add longevity (under hot lamps in canteens, for

example) improve the “mouth feel.”

 In a

sensible world it would have simply been a matter of setting some kind of duty

on these ingredients and using the revenue so generated to subsidise basic,

unadulterated foodstuffs. This couldn’t be done for a number of reasons:

•  It would be
  seized upon by the (very powerful) food industry lobby groups as a “tax on the
  poor:” low income households who consume a higher proportion of these types of
  foods than other groups. The industry makes a fortune out of these ingredients;
• It would
  upset the Americans: hfcs is made from maize, and the US is the
  largest producer in the world. The US would undoubtedly regard such a
  move as contrary to free trade (which it would be, I suppose);
• It would be
  expensive to police and administer.

 Then up

pops JO with a campaign to improve school dinners. This is a Godsend. Parents

love it: for a start is makes feeding time easier at home if children aren’t

loading up on high fat / sugar /salt at school. Secondly, they believe that

getting at least one properly balanced meal per day must be good for their

children’s health, which it almost certainly would be.

 The

government just has to give in to the will of the people (there’s a first!) and

change the rules for school lunch nutritional values. Parents can be touched

one way or another to help cover the costs (who is going to argue with £5 on

council tax for such a worthy scheme?). There can be no criticism from vested

interest groups as this is not heavy handed regulation by the nanny state, but,

in fact, an example of democracy in action….

 Those with

long memories might recall Mrs T trying something similar to get us all picking

up litter. Her mistake, I think, was to try and use Richard Branson as the

celebrity inspiration.

 According

to an article I read some months ago in “Liberation” (no, I don’t buy it – it was

on the bar), France still

has the leanest teenagers in Europe. OK, you

can’t trust newspapers, but I do wonder if the French preoccupation with a “proper”

school meal might have something to do with this.

[Viv]

When I was at school there was one meal option, was take it or leave it. It was vile more often than not but was generally meat and two veg. But then they started this cafeteria system in responce to what kids and I suppose their parents wanted. Unfortunately this fast food muck that they eat at school is akin to the same fast food style muck they eat at home. I think any effort to improve school meals is great, but wasted unless many of the parents start buying and cooking better produce  at home. The excuse often thrown up is cost, but you can still eat healthy on a low budget.

[SaligoBay]

[quote user="Jon D"]

 According to an article I read some months ago in “Liberation” (no, I don’t buy it – it was on the bar), France still has the leanest teenagers in Europe. OK, you can’t trust newspapers, but I do wonder if the French preoccupation with a “proper” school meal might have something to do with this.

[/quote]

Well, in my son's collège it's easy - the food is so bad that they hardly eat anything!   It's a good way to stay thin.

It's interesting that from the outside France is considered a thin country, but from the inside it's seen as a rapidly fattening country.  

 

[Unknown]

Since moving to France ( a year ago now) my two sons eat everything put in front of them.  In the UK they took packed lunches to school as the school meal I thought was poor value, bland, unhealthy and the kids hardly ever ate it.  When they did have veggies they were frozen and then when 'cooked' were tastless.

My kids have a three course meal, consisting of salad, fruit, pasta for a starter, then some form of meat and to finish more fruit, yogurt or the occasional pattiserie. (sp).

They have 11/2 hours for lunch break and there is plenty of time to go home for lunch for those that want to.  When they come home we have a sandwich, soup or salad.  I think having our main meal during the day is better for one's health, we are told over and over about how eating late at night is bad for you, so why shouldn't it be the same for young children.

[Val_2]

My son's Lycée serves up food just like this - no one eats anything they can't recognise either. Seems the poor internat get it again in the evenings.