100 reasons to vote Socialist?

[zeb]

Well, our neighbours were pleased with the manifesto but are kicking themselves that they've just signed over their property to their son (at a cost of 3Keuros) to avoid inheritance tax, as, if they had waited and if Selogene wins, she plans to cut inheritance tax in succession (which would affect us all!).

Unfotunately, we can't vote in the Presidential elections, but which parts of the manifesto might sway you?

[Iceni]

Anyone believing promises made by politicians should already have been barred from voting (insanity). But as I have exercised my constitutional right to abstain from voting for the past 15 years  or so I may be guilty of bias.

John

not

[zeb]

.....and in doing so John, I presume you abstain from commenting on how a country is run?

[Llwyncelyn]

Zeb I suffer as a socialist from jaundice and have done so since Blair came into office.  Again my forefathers were some of the original founders of the Labour Party.  Thus the background but there is no way that you will ever again get me in a voting booth.  'Cleaner than clean and whiter than white' comes flashing back into my memory bank and accompanied by the image of Blair. As a lawyer I am also reading with some interests the comings and goings of the cash for honours allegations.  Not the usage of allegations for nothing is yet proven.

However we have a home here in France and due to my having no children and my wife two from two previous marriages I am interested in your friends approach to sign their house over to their son.  Surely he would have obtained that through the inheritance route so what advantage is it for them or their son in they expending some more money to let him have something that would be his in any event in the fullness of time?

I am really interested in this concept for back in the UK there is a rather large insurance policy on my life and written in trust for my wife's children to compensate them for the 60% inheritance (if I live longer than my wife) tax that they will have to pay.

Please can you come back to me by pm or by posting.

[Iceni]

[quote user="zeb"].....and in doing so John, I presume you abstain from commenting on how a country is run?[/quote]

Of couse not. My vote has never made difference to any result when cast and would not have mattered a jot when I stayed at home.

To expand yr theme surely the only people permitted to comment would be those who chose the winner(s) ?

John

not

[Teamedup]

Llwyncelyn, you don't really believe that TB is a socialist do you? From afar, I saw the Thatcher years and TB years, I personally can't see much difference between the two. Now those who live in the UK may be able to distinguish, but I can't........

.........and anyway, for all I am socialist, we have plenty of tory friends and they love TB and have said that he is the best tory pm since Thatcher. But I had already decided that before they said.

 

I know I don't want Sarko or Le Pen winning the presidential elections in France.

 

Re not voting, well I believe in voting. I always vote in everything I can vote in. I believe that my vote counts.

[Dick Smith]

[quote user="Iceni"]

[quote user="zeb"].....and in doing so John, I presume you abstain from commenting on how a country is run?[/quote]

Of couse not. My vote has never made difference to any result when cast and would not have mattered a jot when I stayed at home.

To expand yr theme surely the only people permitted to comment would be those who chose the winner(s) ?

John

not

[/quote]

Or those who could be bothered to vote?

[Logan]

In my opinion the last thing France needs right now is another socialist president. The incumbent Chirac is a socialist in sheep’s clothing. France and to a certain extent Germany have been suffering economically because of structural economic problems put there by previous socialist governments. The country is burdened by an over protected employment market, hideous restrictive practices and over taxation. Incentives for business, competing in a free market place the negative list is long.  

I look forward to a President Sarko who has promised to change France and “make a clean break with the past.” That will result in half of the population coming out on strike and on the streets, blocking the roads and ports and reducing France to a 3 day week. Sound familiar? Yes it is and did it turn round the UK economy. Yes it did. I accept there was pain but in the old cliché you have to have pain to reap the gain.  France has been living beyond its means for years. If Sarko gets the political support and muscle I believe he will finally change the country for the better and arrest its headlong slide into decline.

[Llwyncelyn]

Teamedup of course I do not believe that TB is or was and even in his wildest dream a socialist.  That to me is not the point I was seduced by what I then viewed as his squeaky clean approach and that he would be different.  Exposure over the years should have confirmed what we all know is that politics has changed and the values of the past and upon which we have pinned our colours are no more.

I am and will remain a true socialist all of my life and I for one do not have any difficulty with a socialist working hard and having the rewards of his or her labour.  What net cash after taxes is used for is again a matter for personal judgment.

Suprisingly I think that BT did lots of good for the UK and I too number a good friends and whose politics are at differing ends of the spectrum to mine.  We can and do disagree but balance and respect for other peoples views has always been one thing that I cling on to.

Of course it hurts to see what has happened in Wales as in the Yorkshire and Durham and Nottingham coalfields not that they per se are closed but what closure has done to communities and proud communities at that.

Sometimes my friends say to me that my values are outdated I should embrace modern day approaches to life and politics is not for the masses it is for the few and the few who benefit more than those they represent.

Nothing has changed.

kind regards

a Gallois lost in France.

[mint]

llwyncelyn

did you vote for the asssembly and, if you did, do you think that devolution has done wales any good?

 

[Tresco]

Some kind soul has posted what appears to be the whole of Royals speech yesterday, broken down into 8/9 minute chunks. I haven't watched it yet.

Scroll down to the bottom of the page for part 1

Royal on Youtube

I wish someone had done the same for the Sarkozy 'debate', but there are just a few clips. This one was the first time the questioner came back and challenged/questioned the response given. The debate had been very sedate up to this point.

Here's Sarko outlining his position on Gay Marriage/Adoption - it's a big no-no for him and he makes no bones about it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLxfimWa1cc

And this one was another section where, again he wasn't given an easy ride. It's poor quality film but the sound is OK.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0t33u4QUJQ

I wish there were more clips as these don't really give the true flavour of the dabate.

[Bugsy]

[quote user="Tresco"]

 

Here's Sarko outlining his position on Gay Marriage/Adoption - it's a big no-no for him and he makes no bones about it.

[/quote]

That makes him OK in my book as I also think it's completely wrong. The title of the 'youtube' clip made me smile, express a view like this and you are immediately given a 'title', in this case homophobe.....................it's classic pc..............[:@]

[Clair]

Is it acceptable to agree with only some of Ségo's and some of Sarko's positions? Who is offering the compromise?

I do not believe that Ségo has the confidence, the assertiveness to win over the elephants, nor the right program to overcome the current problems and I completely disagree with some of Sarko's views.

So who's left?

[Will]

Clair, that is exactly my problem with English politics (and I say English because I am specifically not talking about Scotland, Wales or NI because they have additional politcal agendae). I agree with certain things from each of the main political parties, but there are other policies, or aspects of the leadership, that make them unelectable. The Lib Dem option is OK in many respects, and I agree with a lot of theit policies, but can be just too wishy-washy in other ways.

With so many parties in France it seems incredible that there is no alternative to Sarky amd Ségo, but that's the system. It comes down to the pair of them, and if you don't like either enough to go with one, tough. It's easy to see how the extremists can make such an unrepresentatively big impression.

[nimportequoi]

[quote user="Clair"]Is it acceptable to agree with only some of Ségo's and some of Sarko's positions? Who is offering the compromise?

I do not believe that Ségo has the confidence, the assertiveness to win over the elephants, nor the right program to overcome the current problems and I completely disagree with some of Sarko's views.

So who's left?

[/quote]

François Bayrou?

[Llwyncelyn]

Hi Sweet 17 no I make no bones about it I did not vote for devolution and as a result of my law work I then worked let us say in partnership for it.  I was pv'd but that is now behind me but before they actually went to their first new premises in the Bay they took over what used to be a health building in the Docks and upon which say £15M had just been spent in new IT.  With devolution came the system and the new IT system was ripped out they appointed a contracter without tender and then spent huge amounts of money on oak desks for the AM and then I think it was ash desks for their researchers and their staff. 

I also believe that there is positive discrimination in favour of Welsh speakers.

Those of you in Wales are also now faced with the re-emergence of Ron Davies but not for his new party not for his old party but now as an independent for the voting system favours the independents.

Again in Monmouthshire we had a wonderful constituent MP one Huw Edwards when the hunting ban came in those good guys and girls of Monmouth ousted Huw not because he was not a good MP but he was part of the system that voted in the ban.  Then we had David Davies and who of course is both AM and MP?  Mr Bevan of 1947 fame would turn in his grave.

Still I live in France and now just intend to retire quietly and to read reams of memoires of our wonderful politicians.  They are being put together in dark rooms as we speak.

This is a forum for France and I absolutely apologise for this intrusion!

 

[ernie]

[quote user="Logan"]

In my opinion the last thing France needs right now is another socialist president. The incumbent Chirac is a socialist in sheep’s clothing. France and to a certain extent Germany have been suffering economically because of structural economic problems put there by previous socialist governments. The country is burdened by an over protected employment market, hideous restrictive practices and over taxation. Incentives for business, competing in a free market place the negative list is long.  

I look forward to a President Sarko who has promised to change France and “make a clean break with the past.” That will result in half of the population coming out on strike and on the streets, blocking the roads and ports and reducing France to a 3 day week. Sound familiar? Yes it is and did it turn round the UK economy. Yes it did. I accept there was pain but in the old cliché you have to have pain to reap the gain.  France has been living beyond its means for years. If Sarko gets the political support and muscle I believe he will finally change the country for the better and arrest its headlong slide into decline.

[/quote]

Hi Logan,

Seems to me, you have smacked the nail right on its head.  A sound and practical analysis of the present situation in France, IMNSHO.

Sorry if I upset anyone else, but France is almost ungovernable and Sarko has much to interest those on the left who can think.  Le Pen is the danger to Sarko, Sego is becoming more and more of a music hall comedy act, well, I find her extremely amusing. 

ernie

[Alan Zoff]

I used to think I was a socialist. That was until the penny/cent dropped that all the professional "socialists" (from TB down) are only really in it for themselves and I became rather tired of being one of the mugs.

The real problem, in voting terms, is finding an acceptable alternative. Although I have often used the "if you don't vote, you can't complain" argument myself, I can now empathise with those who are too disillusioned to bother. It is quite understandable that people want to vote for politicians they can believe in. If they don't like or trust any of them, or can find no meaningful difference beetween them, where do they cast their vote? (And before anyone trundles out the "well, you can always stand for parliament yourself" line, apart from the fact that we are not all political animals, or capable of forming new parties, independents are rarely successful.) 

Seems to me that the French have dug themselves into a very deep hole with socialism. Remains to be seen how broke the country will have to become before the electorate will vote away the protectionist, bureaucratic lifestyle that is strangling enterprise. I can't see the EU bailing out France's rural economy for much longer. As the Spanish are beginning to find, that lovely EU money is harder to come by now that there are more poor member countries holding out bowls to be filled. (And why shouldn't they?) 

The French people I speak to (no doubt somewhat grudgingly) admire Blair's "achievements" in the UK, believing that he has made socialism deliver. But would they vote for a completely free market? And do the French (do the ritish?) realise how dependent Britain is on London and the financial markets? I shudder to think what will happen to GB plc if/when London loses its position, in most respects, as the leading global financial centre. (But that's another topic.)

[Tony F Dordogne]

100 votes against Sarkozy!

[Logan]

Disillusionment with politics and politicians is a common malaise in prosperous western democratic countries. So is a decline in religious belief. It’s social evolution, a consequence of better education, equality, human rights and a belief in individualism. How have these admirable qualities become part of the social fabric? The answer is through political change. As each generations lives improve beyond that of our ancestors politics becomes less of an issue. The old social divisions and class wars have become blurred and less relevant to today’s aspirational upwardly mobile generation. Meritocracy now rules and effort brings reward. That is also why socialism belongs back in an age where it was more relevant.  Today’s politician really struggles to produce a coherent alternative to the other parties. Why? I would suggest it is because there really isn’t one. Differences are wafer thin. Who today would advocate the socialist policies of the past? Only a politician bent on political suicide such as dear old Michael Foot in the seventies. We have to have governments and they have to be elected. By voting you retain and keep an important stake in society. By not voting your disillusionment becomes defeat and you allow extremists to enter the mainstream. I agree it’s difficult to believe in them. We expect too much. They are simply functionaries doing a job. If you need someone or something to believe in, try believing and trusting in yourself. Then you will know who to blame when circumstances inevitably take a down turn.  

[mint]

logan

what you have said makes excellent sense.  however, i cannot totally agree with your penultimate sentence.  i like to think that there is someone other than ourselves that we need to believe and trust in.  now, i am not a religious person, so i will not resort to depending on any other Being or Force "out there".  but, surely, there are people (even politicians) who have an altruistic inclination, people who do want to make a difference?

i know he is not a politician as such but i was thinking of someone like bill gates.  he can and does make improvements to the lives of millions, does he not?

[Alan Zoff]

It was Logan's penultimate sentence that I could identify with most. The sooner we stop relying on others to make decisions, or take the blame, for us, the better. That doesn't mean that we don't need to appoint others to manage - we clearly can't do everything ourselves and big projects (government) require structures.

Seems to me that it's the very fact that people feel they must look up to someone with a message that causes the problem. Why else would we put actors, footballers, pop stars, royals, religious leaders, even politicians, on a pedestal and blindly treat them as if they have something important to say? Humans have highly developed brains but on crucial matters often use them as if they were sheep.

[Turnip]

Thinking for one's self and taking responsability for your own actions are not values Mr Blair encourages. The more reliant the people are upon state handouts and state interference then the more likely it is that they will vote for the cash cow that created their state of dependency.

[Renaud]

Teamedup said “.......and anyway, for all I am socialist, we have plenty of tory friends and they love TB and have said that he is the best tory pm since Thatcher. But I had already decided that before they said.”

 I do not know any Tories who think that TB has been anything other than a failure.

 My view is that he is rather a tragic figure who could have been a great reformer but wasn’t because: 1. His years in opposition conditioned him to value the next headline rather than planning for long term delivery, 2. He lacked efficient or even competent administrators in his government, and 3. Gordon Brown vetoed any real reforms (think NHS, education etc). It was all over when Frank Field was sacked. 

[powerdesal]

Its my personal view that there has never been a better Tory PM than Margaret Thatcher, love her or hate her (and many, many people do) she got hold of the UK by the scruff of the neck and sorted it out. It was cruel, hard, brutal even but it worked and was necessary at the time.

The very unfortunate thing is that a similar brutal approach is probably going to be necessary again in the not too distant future.

My personal opinion only, I am not inviting an argument.