Nationality

[Iceni]

[quote user="Georgina"]

If you call a Scot, Welsh or Irish. person English, they usually put you right. If you called an English person any of those, they would not flinch[:)], they mostly see themselves as British. We are not allowed to put up flags in England for fear of offending others, we are not encouraged to be English.  That's why IMHO it's easier for the English to come to France, because they feel like an outsider in England anyway.

Georgina

[/quote]

And how typically English to devolve power to those other countries but not allow the English to have their own Parliament.

Despite/because of this I consider myself English first and British never and I would be seriously offended to be mistaken for S, W or I. Having moved from a WASPish part of N Essex to a WASC part of the Lot I certainly do not feel or possibly look an outsider in either.

John

not

[Just Katie]

[quote user="Georgina"]

If you call a Scot, Welsh or Irish. person English, they usually put you right. If you called an English person any of those, they would not flinch[:)], they mostly see themselves as British. We are not allowed to put up flags in England for fear of offending others, we are not encouraged to be English.  That's why IMHO it's easier for the English to come to France, because they feel like an outsider in England anyway.

Georgina

[/quote]

Georgina, I find that very true with the English not being allowed to embrace their nationality.  In Wales, we truly embrace ours to the brink of being patriotic, but, in wales it is called a love of culture not nationalism.  I think it is England who carries the cross of the BRITISH empire and that has not been forgotten.  The Welsh do not offend anybody with their 'culture' and, why should they?  If they are not singing or playing rugby, they are either in the pub or tending their sheep!

Apologies in advance to my countrymen for the last bit.[:D]

 

[Clair]

[quote user="samdebretagne"][quote user="LyndaandRichard"]Just to clarify, is it possible for someone to have both a British passport and a French one too?[/quote]

Yes, it is.  Several people on this thread have even stated they had dual citizenship - do you not believe them?[/quote]

In my case, it is only possible because I am French by birth and cannot legally renounce my French nationality.

I cannot say if a British national is required to choose when applying for another nationality.

[Cat]

I never felt like an outsider in England.  If the English living in England are the outsiders, who are the insiders, have I misunderstood?  Has waving or hanging the cross of St George been banned in England then, or were you talking about a different flag? 

 

[samdebretagne]

[quote user="Clair"]In my case, it is only possible because I am French by birth and cannot legally renounce my French nationality.[/quote]

Are you sure about this?  When doing research about applying for French citizenship, I'm pretty sure that I read somewhere that French citizens were allowed to denounce their French nationality under certain conditions (ex: if they live permanently abroad and have acquired citizenship elsewhere).

I also know several British people living here that have dual nationality, either through their parents or because they wanted to be able to vote, etc, so I'm pretty sure it is possible.

[Clair]

[quote user="samdebretagne"][quote user="Clair"]In my case, it is only possible because I am French by birth and cannot legally renounce my French nationality.[/quote]

Are you sure about this?  When doing research about applying for French citizenship, I'm pretty sure that I read somewhere that French citizens were allowed to denounce their French nationality under certain conditions (ex: if they live permanently abroad and have acquired citizenship elsewhere).

I also know several British people living here that have dual nationality, either through their parents or because they wanted to be able to vote, etc, so I'm pretty sure it is possible.

[/quote]

'"st français à la naissance l'enfant légitime,

naturel ou adopté (en cas d'adoption plènière) dont

l'un des parents au moins est français"

Lorsque les 2 parents sont français, l'enfant ne peut renoncer

à cette nationalité

Lorsqu'un seul des parents est français, l'enfant ne peut renoncer

à la nationalité française s'il est né en

France

Si l'enfant est né à l'étranger, les liens avec la

France sont moins étroits, et il peut renoncer à cette nationalité

entre 17 ans et demi et 19 ans.

More details here: http://www.legislation.cnav.fr/

Moot point in my case anyway...

[samdebretagne]

But that's as a child - things are different when you reach adulthood and live abroad:

3. La perte de la nationalité française :

Elle est le plus souvent volontaire et s’effectue :

• par déclaration
• par décision de l’autorité publique

Elle peut néanmoins, dans des cas très

particuliers, être involontaire (jugement, déchéance) ou résulter de la

mise en œuvre la convention de Strasbourg du 6 mai 1963 (double

nationalité).

 par déclaration :

Des

cas de répudiation de la nationalité française sont prévus par le code

civil, sous certaines conditions, en faveur, notamment, des enfants nés

à l’étranger d’un seul parent français ou nés en France d’un seul

parent né en France.

Par ailleurs, toute personne majeure,

résidant habituellement à l’étranger, qui acquiert volontairement une

nationalité étrangère peut, sous certaines conditions, perdre la

nationalité française par déclaration souscrite devant le juge

d’instance ou, lorsqu’elle réside à l’étranger, devant le consul de

France territorialement compétent.

En cas de mariage avec un étranger, le

conjoint français peut également répudier la nationalité française, à

condition d’avoir acquis la nationalité de son conjoint et que la

résidence habituelle du ménage ait été fixée à l’étranger.

[Clair]

I am not quite sure why you're so hung up about this...[8-)]

I would not anyway...

[samdebretagne]

I'm not hung up, I'm just trying to say it that one can legally renounce their French citizenship, as you had previously stated it was illegal.  Not that I'm trying to make you do it!  :-)

[Clair]

[quote user="samdebretagne"]I'm not hung up, I'm just trying to say it that one can legally renounce their French citizenship, as you had previously stated it was illegal.  Not that I'm trying to make you do it!  :-) [/quote]

So I appear to have been wrong... Feel better?

[samdebretagne]

Look, I'm not trying to make you feel bad, only trying to clarify the law for others out there.  Now who's hung up on it?

[Clair]

[quote user="samdebretagne"]Look, I'm not trying to make you feel bad, only trying to clarify the law for others out there.  Now who's hung up on it?

[/quote]

I suspect that there aren't that many French people concerned about this here!

[Teamedup]

There is one thing for sure about this debate about repudiating french nationality. The french judges will only let a person do this is if they can prove that they have another nationality.

[samdebretagne]

Okay, I give up (*waves white flag*). 

But I disagree that just because there aren't many French members on this site, that doesn't mean I can't correct misinformed postings relating to French law.  After all, how do you know that a British poster wouldn't go and pass that info on to one of their French friends?

[chessfou]

Just over four years to go and I will collect my fifth nationality here (don't forget "citizenship" of the EU and the Commonwealth of Nations, which account for two of mine).

I found an interesting map which gives an (approximate) idea of which countries permit dual citizienship and which don't (aside from "EU"):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:DualCitizenMap.PNG

Presumably the significance of Jonny Hallyday trying to get Belgian citizenship is that (unlike his Swiss citizenship), he will then be "forced" to give up his French citizenship and will thus be able to go and live happily ever after in Monaco.

[Clair]

[quote user="samdebretagne"]After all, how do you know that a British poster wouldn't go and pass that info on to one of their French friends?[/quote]

I really never intended my posts to be taken as word of law...

See my tagline below [:)]

[Clair]

In Johnny's case, I've read somewhere that you cannot get tax exemption (or whatever it's called) in Monaco if you are a French national, so he has to have another nationality to qualify for it... but I could be wrong [:)]

[Georgina]

[quote user="Cat"]

I never felt like an outsider in England.  If the English living in England are the outsiders, who are the insiders, have I misunderstood?  Has waving or hanging the cross of St George been banned in England then, or were you talking about a different flag? 

 

[/quote]

Thanks Cat. 

Well it's not just my opinion but those of my friends  with whom I am still in contact, so maybe Iceni has been here longer or lived in a small village.  I don't know.  I come from a big city where the hanging of St George had been banned there and in several other places where I have lived. Indeed the celebration of Christmas a tradition of our Christian country (although I appreciate not everyone is religious but still enjoyed such celebrations) has been played down, including not allowing children to play the nativity scene at our childrens' school!

 (where have you been Iceni)?

 

 Georgina

[Chief]

[quote user="Georgina"]

.............that's why IMHO it's easier for the English to come to France, because they feel like an outsider in England anyway.

Georgina

[/quote]

Maybe if you choose to believe or promote the hysteria over immigration, that might be true. But i don't think the sentiments you exude are particulary widespread.  Just popular politics to promote divides as they sell papers and harmony doesn't. 

[Will]

As so often, the England that people seem to be writing about here is not the same country where I spend half of my time. I am happy, proud even, to be British, and particularly English, and cannot think of anything I would like less than to become French. About the only thing that I seem to share with the French, and apparently not with many English, is being at ease with my own nationality.

[Chief]

[quote user="Georgina"][quote user="Cat"]

I never felt like an outsider in England.  If the English living in England are the outsiders, who are the insiders, have I misunderstood?  Has waving or hanging the cross of St George been banned in England then, or were you talking about a different flag? 

 

[/quote]

Thanks Cat. 

Well it's not just my opinion but those of my friends  with whom I am still in contact, so maybe Iceni has been here longer or lived in a small village.  I don't know.  I come from a big city where the hanging of St George had been banned there and in several other places where I have lived. Indeed the celebration of Christmas a tradition of our Christian country (although I appreciate not everyone is religious but still enjoyed such celebrations) has been played down, including not allowing children to play the nativity scene at our childrens' school!

 (where have you been Iceni)?

 

 Georgina

[/quote]

Well, i support your right to fly the flag, but i also support the right of others to be offended by it.  And therin lies the problem.  The so-called advocates of freedom and democracy seem to flinch when conflict results from their rights. If an act is likely to incite a negative reaction in someone, that is not a reason to ban it, but neither should we expect the offended parties to remain quiet just because we have chosen to exercise our rights.  To me its all part and parcel of the action/reaction cycle.  And when the reaction goes too far, we hopefully have saleint laws to deal with it.

[Tresco]

[quote user="Georgina"]I come from a big city where the hanging of St George had been banned there and in several other places where I have lived. [/quote]

Which big city and other places has the flag you mention been banned from? I've not heard of this.

[Beryl]

A quick google found this

http://www.salfordadvertiser.co.uk/news/s/213/213709_by_george_how_very_unpatriotic.html

For health and safety reasons was the official line...but there is some mention of being sensitive to how "residents of other nationalities would react to England flags being displayed." 

It is that sort of over zealous 'sensitivity' that I suspect creates problems where none would be.

[Tresco]

[quote user="beryl"]It is that sort of over zealous 'sensitivity' that I suspect creates problems where none would be.[/quote]

Thanks for googling for me Beryl! [:)]

My own search revealed similar stories, all pretty similar in that they related to the flying of flags from fleet vehichles in the run up to, and during the World Cup last year, and previously when Euro 2004 was on.

I do agree with what you say above, on the whole, in this context. From what I gathered last year, the whole country was awash with flags of many nations, (with some people flying flags representing their dual heritage) and no one was offended - though plenty of people got irritated by them as time went on.[;-)]

However, I can't find any reference to the banning of the flag otherwise. Perhaps Georgina can help with that?

 

[powerdesal]

[quote user="Chief"][quote user="Georgina"][quote user="Cat"]

I never felt like an outsider in England.  If the English living in England are the outsiders, who are the insiders, have I misunderstood?  Has waving or hanging the cross of St George been banned in England then, or were you talking about a different flag? 

 

[/quote]

Thanks Cat. 

Well it's not just my opinion but those of my friends  with whom I am still in contact, so maybe Iceni has been here longer or lived in a small village.  I don't know.  I come from a big city where the hanging of St George had been banned there and in several other places where I have lived. Indeed the celebration of Christmas a tradition of our Christian country (although I appreciate not everyone is religious but still enjoyed such celebrations) has been played down, including not allowing children to play the nativity scene at our childrens' school!

 (where have you been Iceni)?

 

 Georgina

[/quote]

Well, i support your right to fly the flag, but i also support the right of others to be offended by it.  And therin lies the problem.  The so-called advocates of freedom and democracy seem to flinch when conflict results from their rights. If an act is likely to incite a negative reaction in someone, that is not a reason to ban it, but neither should we expect the offended parties to remain quiet just because we have chosen to exercise our rights.  To me its all part and parcel of the action/reaction cycle.  And when the reaction goes too far, we hopefully have saleint laws to deal with it.

[/quote]

Chief,

As I understand it, Georgina was referring to the flying of the flag of St George in England. This is the English national flag. You say that you effectively support the rights of those who object to the English flag making their objections known. Personally, I find this hard to accept, object by all means - privately, but to openly, ie publicly, object to the English flag being flown in England is, quite frankly, insulting to the English people.