Draft Brexit agreement

[Cathar Tours]

I think the first paragraph spells it out in political speak "collectively agreed it would be impossible to make major changes." which I would interpret to mean you can tweak a little here and there but the main core can't be changed. That's my interpretation anyway.

I don't think the British people have the monopoly of "lets get on with it", I think the rest of the EU feels the same and that the EU27 simply don't have the appetite any longer to continue negotiating the actual exit. Barnier also probably just wants to retire to his back garden and take a long rest as well.

Don't forget this first part is all about how the UK leaves and what it would like to have in the future with respect to the type of way it wants to trade with the EU. That bit comes after is the actual trade deal negotiations and of course Barniers job will have been done by then and he won't be involved.

The other issue is UK is going to have to negotiate the actual deal with the negotiating team that to date has negotiated 57 trade deals around the world, some being very big like China and India whilst the UK has the likes of.... well we have had so many changes now I don't actually know. The point is whoever it is they will be facing a very competent group of negotiators who have tons of experience, far more than they can ever dream of.

That said I am sure the UK can negotiate a trade deal but it does have to get rid of its "they need us more" attitude which many of the EU27 get annoyed with and find quite insulting mainly because they don't although they will not object to getting a good one.

Still nothing really matters now, we just have to wait and see if May survives the weekend. If she is still in No 10 on Tuesday the UK is one more step nearer a deal. Seeing the amount of Tories now coming out and backing her Moggie may end up with egg all over his face. We will see, who knows and if they claim they do can they give me the Euro millions winning numbers please.

[Daft Doctor]

Having had a good read of Article 18 of the document, my interpretation of paragraph (h) is that those who already have a Carte de Sejour permanent before Brexit will only have to prove identity, pass a security and criminality check, and prove ongoing residence to exchange their current card for a new replacement one. It will only be those who are applying for permanent residency for the first time who will have to produce the documentation mentioned in paragraph (k). Anyone see it differently?

[Cathar Tours]

It would be very interesting to see how they get on with that. When I was reading through all the stuff on the CDS it appeared to me that there was no difference between those issued to EU citizens and those who were non EU citizens. Would I therefore be right in thinking that what is proposed is a new document just for Brits? If that is the case then this would go against all the anti discrimination laws of the EU. If allowed what next I wonder, Brits having to wear GB patches on their backs when out in public? Europe has been down this route before and it didn't end well.

I could see the ECJ and ECHR clogged for years.

PS. I thought criminal checks were carried out anyway for a CDS.

[EuroTrash]

AFAIK nobody has decided yet what if any special document Brits will need, they're waiting to see what Brexit we have aren't they? But I think the difference CT is that all non EU citizens have to first obtain a visa in order to come here in the first place, and in order to get the visa have to meet the conditions for whichever visa they are applying for (eg being sponsored by an employer if they're coming here to a job). Then they need to produce their visa when they apply for their first CDS, and bear in mind that they don't all get the same CDS - some are allowed to work, some have to sign a declaration promising that they won't look for work here - and having done that, they have to jump through certain integration hoops such as attending formal French language and culture classes. Whereas, many Brits who came here under freedom of movement will not meet nor ever have met the immigration requirements for third country nationals, and I don't think most of them would much appreciate being told that they have to attend integration classes either. For instance I am hoping to get a cds that allows me to work here even though as national of another third country I would not have the right to work here. So since Brits who are here already will hopefully get favourable treatment I'm not sure what mileage there is in saying it's not fair.

I imagine that Brits who come here after Brexit will follow the same process as for other 3rd country citizens, applying for a visa and going through OFII etc, so the special card, if there is one, would only be for Brits who got caught up in Brexit, not for all Brits - so not exactly discrimination, just a recognition that some people are in a particular situation.

[alittlebitfrench]

As I see it, those worrying their little heads off about getting a CDS are those who think they are on a sticky wicket when it comes to meeting the legal requirements to stay France.

Most of us are just waiting to see what you need and then apply.

A CDS ain't going to save you. You are still going have to reapply for another card.

Anyway, the UK will not exit the EU.

GOT IT !!!!

[EuroTrash]

Sticky wickets come in all flavours of stickiness though, ALBF. I hope to heaven you are right with your prediction because the point about all this is, it's closing off choices Certain options that were open to you before Brexit came along, you are no longer certain whether you still have them or not, and in some cases it's pretty certain that you don't. So for all there is talk about the impact on people's lives should be kept to a minimum, for lots of people it is having an impact. It's adding an extra layer of complication that has to be planned around. You know from "the other side" what I was planning to do, and I don't know whether to go ahead and accept the possible consequences, or change my plans and accept different possible consequences.

[Lehaut]

Theresa May’s Brexit deal has been slammed by arch-leave MP Nadine Dorries – because it means the UK will be left without any Members of the European Parliament.

This is a very sad place to be,” she told Sky News. “But unfortunately, the future of the country and of our relationship with Europe is at stake. This deal gives us no voice, no votes, no MEPs, no commissioner.”

Leaves me speechless!!

[NormanH]

Seems par for the course..[:'(]

[nomoss]

[quote user="Lehaut"]Theresa May’s Brexit deal has been slammed by arch-leave MP Nadine Dorries – because it means the UK will be left without any Members of the European Parliament.

This is a very sad place to be,” she told Sky News. “But unfortunately, the future of the country and of our relationship with Europe is at stake. This deal gives us no voice, no votes, no MEPs, no commissioner.”

Leaves me speechless!![/quote]

And she even went to a comprehensive school!

[woolybanana]

It is only a draft. It seems the European states want more flesh, particularly over fishing rights!

[Alan Zoff]

It's a sure sign that people fear they are losing the argument when they conjure up a popular enemy. Just as Trump before the mid-terms got the US spooked over the "migrant army attacking the country", we now have European "bullies" trying to take advantage of the UK.

All together now: "Rule Britannia".

[Cathar Tours]

The Times I read (Steve Hilton) are suggesting if May loses a vote of confidence then the only person who has the balls and ability to sort it out is Cameron. Hope you all were sitting down for that one.

[Patf]

He was only joking? English irony (I hope[8-)])

[YCCMB]

I've been thoroughly enjoying following the hashtag #cursereesmogg on Twitter. It helps brighten the gloom a bit.

[richard51]

Nomoss - obviously a poor one. Though I'm sure the teachers will blame the her parents for not giving her empathy with others. Probably same reason for her as why so many idiots in the Brexit capital voted leave too.

[EuroTrash]

"All together now: "Rule Britannia"."

RULE BRITANNIA

BRITANNIA WAIVES THE RULES

BRITONS NEVER NEVER NEVER BEEN SUCH FOOLS

that's how it goes isn't it?

[nomoss]

[quote user="richard51"]Nomoss - obviously a poor one. Though I'm sure the teachers will blame the her parents for not giving her empathy with others. Probably same reason for her as why so many idiots in the Brexit capital voted leave too.[/quote]

- because she went to a comprehensive school? - Probably[:D]

[richard51]

Nomoss - fund them correctly and get a level playing field.

Two points:

1. A close relative-in-law sent his kids to independent school and, hey, one was fine but the other was asked to leave just before the A level exams because he would perhaps lower their overall exam results.

2. ET sums up the current idiocy - and that idiocy includes the toff right and the gullible BNF - funny how toff tories are now in league with ex-BNF (and that is speaking from the area that is not only the Brexit capital but also the BNF capital at the time.

[Cathar Tours]

After the draft agreement was released it seems supermarkets and wholesalers have reserved just about every frozen and chilled food storage facility in the UK to ensure there are plenty of supplies to sell after March 29th in the belief there will be a hard Brexit.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/18/uk-running-out-of-food-warehouse-space-as-no-deal-brexit-fears-rise

Seems like they have all gone stark raving bonkers in the UK.

[woolybanana]

Dickdick, you are raving. What prey is BNF?

[EuroTrash]

"supermarkets and wholesalers have reserved just about every frozen and chilled food storage facility in the UK to ensure there are plenty of supplies "

I read an article about this in a business magazine earlier in the year. Seems the prices for potential warehouse space have been rocketing and storage/warehousing has become the business to get into as a potential get rich quick after Brexit..

[NormanH]

OK OK it's the Grauniad...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/19/brexit-class-labour-conservative-leave-peoples-vote

[richard51]

WB -that which coalesced into the BNP British National Party and whose believers helped to turn SOT South into a conservative seat.

[Cathar Tours]

Well Norman on Sunday Corbyn admitted on Sky that he has not even read the draft even now. It's like somebody saying I don't like custard, have you ever tried it, no because I don't like it.

Perhaps reading 500 odd pages is a bit much for a political party leader and PM in waiting, I don't know, but how can you criticise a document you have not even read especially when its content could effect generations to come.

A response from a Brexiteer was "who reads the small print anyway"! Says it all really.

I assume today we will finally see the Political Declaration for the first time which will be an interesting read.

[richard51]

I assume CT that to gain a full understanding of the document that you have also read all the directives to which the document refers to.

Reading it doesn't necessarily mean understanding it! I think that misquoting Corbyn is becoming the norm.

Maggie May standing up and repeating the same mantra for several hours does appear however to gain her some sort of saint-hood!!