CPAM - Proof of residence

[lucky luke]

Will,

Many thanks for your prompt and reassuring reply. Guess we'll just have to sit this one out and see what happens over the coming months!

Regards

LL

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Bugbear"]

[quote user="cooperlola"]anybody wanting to renew their Cartes Vitales [/quote]

Just a question. We both have Cartes Vitales issued in 2003. There is no indication on the cards as to an expiry date and they have both been used recently.

Under what circumstances would anyone need to renew these cards?

[/quote]According to my letter from my CPAM, and from some of the less-speculative posts, articles, and decrees which I have read, everybody who is "not employed" will now be assessed annually by their CPAMs.  If they do not meet the criteria stated by Will, above (and possibly others, yet to be on the statute books), they will be asked to return their Cartes Vitales, and take out private insurance - just as he says.  Expect a letter any day now.

[Clair]

As well as the above stated by Coops, there's also the new-style carte vitale (Carte Vitale 2), which includes a photograph of the insured.

It is gradually being introduced after a trial period last year.

This is yet another fraud-stopping measure.

More details here: http://www.service-public.fr/actualites/00311.html

[cooperlola]

Mr C and I have decided to go to the CPAM tomorrow with all the paperwork and see what gives.  Better than speculating and tying ourselves in knots.  Maybe we'll take along a couple of pics aswell!!

[BJSLIV]

Best of luck. We will all await your report with interest.

PS Its probably a bad sign if you get there and find all the staff are away for a weeks intensive training.[:)]

[shimble]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=NAYE3SG34FQQ1QFIQMGSFGGAVCBQWIV0?xml=/news/2007/09/03/wsarko103.xml

[Sunday Driver]

It's interesting that both the Sunday Times and Telegraph articles refer principally to the withdrawal of 'free' cover....

I am currently in contact with the French Health Ministry and have asked them for official clarification. I'm also speaking with someone through the French 'old boy' network.....

Watch this space...

 

[Ron Avery]

[quote user="shimble"]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=NAYE3SG34FQQ1QFIQMGSFGGAVCBQWIV0?xml=/news/2007/09/03/wsarko103.xml[/quote]

This is just a word for word repeat of the inaccurate Times report, this one is by Peter Allen, the Times one by Brendan Montague and Nicola Smith and they moan about kids copying stuff for their GCSE's, it even quotes the same retired diplomat and a bloke who from a UK based insurer, except in this article one you have to become a resident after two years[:'(]

 Like Cooperlola I'm off the CPAM to prove residence as I have not got this year's Tax Avis, and despite having paid USSRAF for three years,  so will keep you posted, I believe the phrase "and do not have the means to pay for their own healthcare" has been left out to sensationalise the story in both "quality" newspapers.

[Ron Avery]

Went to CPAM and they don't know anything about it or who to contact with queries[:'(]

[cooperlola]

Have you had a letter?  Ours came from our CPAM in the first place!  We're off after lunch so will see if we get the same response.....

[foxyloxy25]

Likewise Ron, my husband has just come back from CPAM and they no nothing about this.

jeanne

[cooperlola]

As our letter says "Pour assurer la prolongation de vos droigts, je vous invite a me retourner avant le 17 septembre 2007" and "Je ne saurais trop insister sur la necessite d'une reponse rapide.. Par ailleurs..... En cas de manquement a ces obligations, une penalite financiere pourra vous etre appliquee.." I sure hope, they'll know what I'm on about..[:-))]

[BJSLIV]

As an ex-bureaucrat myself, I would expect this sort of thing to be handled by the back office, probably by a specialist team.

The clerks are the counter will probably only be able to take the papers from you and pass them on.

Fingers crossed though!

PS

une penalite financiere

Is presumably their previously mentioned right to charge you 8% of 160,000 Euros if you don't subit the proof of income required.

 

[cooperlola]

I'm sure you have it about right, BSJLIV.  However, at the least they can confirm that I have read the letter correctly and not missed anything.  We live in hope.

[Boiling a frog]

Lettre from CPAM dated 22nd Aout 2007

Madame

Dans le cadre du renouvellement de vos droits a l,assurance maladie votre dossier doit faire l,objet d,un nouvel examen par nos services.

Vos droits sont soumis a une condition de residence(1).Vous devez,en effet,justifier d,une residence stable(2).

Par ailleurs,une etude de vos revenus est egalement neessaire pour determiner si vous etes redevable d,une cotisation.Cette cotisation est due si vos revenus sont superieurs a un plafond fixe reglementairement et revisable chaque annee.

Je souhaite attirer votre attention sur le fait que cette regle est applicable meme si vous nétes pas imposable(3)

Pour assurer la prolongation de vos droits,je vous invite a me retourner avant le 17 Septembre 2007

les documents attestant de votre residence stable et effective en France:photcopie de l,avis d,imposition ou de non imposition ou a defaut tout autre document attestant du caractere permanent de la residence ou ddún sejour dúne duree superieure a 6 mois

This letter goes on a bit more about other documents to produce

 

I visited CPAM Charente today

My E106 ran out 3 years ago and I am not entitled to an E121 (too young) I do not work but have a pension I complete the same form every year to assess my payments to CPAM for CMU cover.and every year I also complete a tax return in France.This has been for the previous 3 years.

This year I took my avis d;impot showing my revenu fiscal de reference to CPAM today together with the application form for CMU

NOTHING ELSE WAS REQUIRED BY CPAM AND MY COVER WILL CONTINUE

Noone knew anything about the circumstances as outlined in the Sunday times article,despite the very helpfull lady at CPAM making various phone calls (I think she thought I was just a crazy anglais)

CPAM did say that if you do not have an avis dímpot you would have to prove stable residence in France for 6 months and provide proof of income to their satisfaction  

[Grecian]

Just still slightly confused here, if I have read all the above correctly, it would seem that if you are in receipt of an E121, then you will still be allowed access to CMU.

As hopefully my wife will qualify for an E121, when we make the move across, as I understand it I can then 'piggyback' on her E121.

If this is the case, does the reference to the RMI level of income come into play? I personally will be below the minimum level, as I will only be in receipt of a small company pension, but my wife's income will be way above the required funding level. For RMI assessment are the two incomes lumped into one, as for income tax purposes? Or are they both assessed as individuals, which would mean that I am not allowed access to CMU in France?[:(]

[cooperlola]

On an E121, Grecian, you get medical cover - ie you qualify for a Carte Vitale but the funding comes from the UK.  The CMU is for those who are not covered by E forms - those who pay (currently 8% of their taxable income) into the French system. I believe that's right but the important thing, for those on E106's and E121's is that they are not affected by all this.

post edited.

Yes, the assessment for CMU payments is based on your joint income - split in half and divided equally, as your contributions (should you need to make them) are based upon your RFR - revenue fiscale de reference - which is worked out based on both.  So, if you do not qualify for either an E106 or and E121, you will pay 8% of your RFR to the French state for your healthcare.  Unless of course some of the rumours are true, and all "non workers" are at some time in the future asked to take out private healthcare insurance.

[cooperlola]

I visited my CPAM today, after all this.  I took all the papers they asked for (Copies of Cartes Vitales and associated Attestations, Passports, all 2006 phone and electricity bills, our 2006 tax return - together with the e-mail from our Tresor Public explaining why I did not yet have an Avis d'Imposition, plus the "electronic signature" confirmation as we had submitted our return on-line.  The lady in the office was well aware of what the documents were, was happy she had all she needed, and has now passed them on for processing.

Until that's been done, I guess we won't be certain that we're allowed to remain in the system, but she seemed confident that the only requirement was to prove we are in permanent residence here, and to give them our updated tax details so that they could assess our contributions for next year.  There seemed to be absolutely no suggestion that our right to remain in the CMU was in question, if we were permanent residents.

[Gyn_Paul]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

......The fact that your wife qualifies for an E121 does not necessarily

mean that you will be covered.  That is up to Newcastle (who

initially assess your "dependency" upon her) and the French

authorities.......

[/quote]

Where did you get this idea from Cooperlola? Can you point me in the

direction of an EU/UK ruling to this effect? The non-working spouse of

a pensioner in receipt of a E121 is surely ipso-facto a dependant and

this 'piggy-backs' him or her into the system under the 'Ayant droit'

ruling.

I have some difficulty believing that ones entitlement (or not) is at

the whim of a person in Tyneview Park; Heaven help a supplicant on the

Monday after Newcastle gets comprehensively beaten !

This was certainly the case with my wife and me. She is the (OA)

pensioner, but my (taken-early-discounted) company pension is slightly

larger than her state pension, yet Newcastle isssued her with a E121

with my details on the back and thus I have a Carte Vitale of my own on

my wife's account.

Mind you, the downside is that I have to keep well in and mind my P's

and Q's. If she were to pack her bags and leave in a marked manner, I'd

have to stump up 8% of my pension to hang on to my CV!

p

[cooperlola]

I'll see if I can find the quote.  Meanwhile, I'll delete the reference, but I'm sure it's here somewhere  (rifles through huge pile of documents on desk....)

[cooperlola]

The problem in all this, is the continued use of the word may in the leaflets issued by the DWP which discusses the E121 (although somewhat sketchily).  "You may be able to get the benefits from the UK when living in another EU country.  If so, you may also get healthcare cover for yourself and any members of your family who depend on you and who live with you. "  It is not difinitive.  Its advice is to apply for the E121, that's all.  It does not state anywhere that just because your partner is entitled to one, that you will be too.   I guess that Newcastle's involvement, is to do with the assessment which has to be made as to what constitutes somebody who depends on you, and what does not.   Although I like the idea that the success of otherwise of the Magpies has anything to do with it.....

Have a look at page 2 of this thread - in particular Ron Avery's posts

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/2/1001234/ShowPost.aspx#1001234

 

[Bastet]

Could someone definitively tell me whether or not one has to declare ALL income to CPAM, including that which due to its non taxable nature, is not required to be declared on the tax return?   This means that our RFR is low, as it just reflects our income from rental.    I am confused by the form.   Sorry to be so dim..

Last year, we had an unscheduled inspection from a CMU agent after I followed the advice of someone who seemed to know what was what, and just declared the RFR. We are still waiting on the result of an appeal as he miscalculated our total income.  The last we heard, CMU were verifying our RFR with the impots office. 

[cooperlola]

The form which you get from the CPAM with the letter being discused above, asks you to declare all your income, and your RFR, but in different boxes.  Fill it in correctly and you should have no problems.  But everything I have read on here and elsewhere suggest that your contributions are based upon your RFR.  What I'm not quite clear about, is what income you have which would not be reflected by your RFR and I suspect that this is the problem.  The RFR is calculated on your total worldwide income - whether taxable here or not (UK pensions etc) - maybe this is how the mistake came about?

I really would take the advice of a good accoutant, if I were you.

[Tony F Dordogne]

Don't understand how income is not returnable on your tax form, my accountant tells me that in France you had to declare all income on your tax forms tho some of it may be ameliorated for tax purposes?

If I understand correctly it's the tax return figure that is used to determine whether or not you can get CMU but surely if your 'non-taxable' income is added to your taxable income and that puts your income over the limit, you wouldn't  and perhaps shouldn't get the CMU payments as you then have additional income which puts you out of the CMU banding.

[Grecian]

cooperlola many thanks for the swift reply.

I did not make it clear in my earlier post, that both myself and my wife are below UK pensionable age (she will qualify for an E121, due to her being in receipt of long-term incapacity benefit), and will be lumped into the 'non workers' group as you put it. So if I am not able to 'piggyback' the wife's E121 (that sounds rude), then presumably, if I am not working, I would have to provide my own healthcare insurance, if the article in the Sunday Times is anywhere near correct.

I will get the wife to phone Newcastle after a massive 5-0 win for the magpies, to see if I can 'piggyback' her E121!