CPAM - Proof of residence

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]

Complete the personal details on page 1, enter your revenue fiscal de reference on page 3 and sign at the bottom. 

[/quote]I have just heard from the tax office that "due to a computer problem, your avis d'imposition  is not yet available and we cannot provide you with your revenue fiscal de reference - this may be available by September", so I guess I'll just have to give the CPAM a copy of my tax return and this e-mail and leave them to sort it out.

Just a further quick - probably very silly - question.  On the "personal details" section of the form, it asks

"Si vous etes inscrit ou si vous avez ete inscrit dans un organisme d'assurance maladie" - you are asked to give the name and address.  Do I take this to mean any private and/or top up insurance you may have? Or by Health Insurance Organisation, are they referring to the cover we used to have under the UK national health insurance regs?

B*gg*r me, and I thought I didn't have to do any work any more....[:-))]

[Sunday Driver]

They are referring to which sickness insurance organism you are currently/have previously been affilated through, eg CPAM.

 

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]

They are referring to which sickness insurance organism you are currently/have previously been affilated through, eg CPAM.

 

[/quote]Thanks again, S/D.[:)]

[Pommier]

We've also received the CPAM forms, and have also not yet received our Avis d'Impot.

Can I ask advice as to how to fill in the CMU declaration de revenue?

Question 2 asks for the RFR. If we had this, ought I put it just under my husband's name, or divide it in two and put half each for each of us, or put the full RFR for each of us?

I get a company pension (under state retirement age). Does this go under question 7?

Our other income is interest on French savings. Does this go under question 9? Presumably for savings interest I divide it in two, allocating half each to each of us?

I've photocopied electric bills, passports, cartes vitale, attestations, 2006 tax return and also a simulation of  calculation of tax from the government website. Is there anything else I ought to copy/send?

I'll hope that the Avis d'Impot arrives soon as it's even more complicated without it!

Many thanks to anyone who can advise.

Cheryl

[cooperlola]

It mentions also "Si vous avez des personnes a charge"... "votre certificat de cocubinage".  For myself, I popped our marriage certificate in for good measure!! Although there's a good chance this isn't necessary, I just thought it would save any delays if it were!

We've also decided to take these things in in person and just make sure it's all OK, rather than posting it.  The whole thing's got us a bit nervous and over-cautious, I think.

[suein56]

[quote user="cooperlola"]Just got a slightly surprising letter from our CPAM today.  ... they have now decided that we need to prove that we are permanent residents!  One of the documents they are asking for is a "carte de sejour."  Now, we don't have one  ...[/quote]

We received our letter yesterday and we don't have a 'carte de séjour' either; everything else they need copies of is not a problem. So the question is - what can we send  that will satisfy their demand instead of a CdeS?

Sue

[cooperlola]

If you have a look back on this thread - you'll see that La Vette kindly answered the original question for us.  If you look at page 4 of the form (rather than the covering letter) it says that the carte de sejour is only necessary for non   EU nationals.  For us, passports plus proof of residence such as EDF bills etc, are sufficient.

[suein56]

Aaah; but my letter says expressly that all the documents listed in their letter must be sent; they also add that parts of the requirements of the CMU form have been superseded by the new legislation of March 2007. I think the letters must vary in content or expression depending on the area you live in.

Sue

[cooperlola]

This seems to be the case.  At any rate, as said above, I'm going to take the stuff along in person so if there's anything else I need I can get it before the due date. If you're really concerned about this particular condition, then I think the best course of action is to take the letter along to your Mairie and ask them to help. 

[suein56]

[quote user="cooperlola"] If you're really concerned ... then I think the best course of action is to take the letter along to your Mairie and ask them to help. [/quote]

Aaah again; there we might seem to differ in approach - the staff in our Mairie are absolutely useless, so is M le Maire himself.  He likes to be seen cutting ribbons in ceremonies - and he makes sure there are plenty of those - but that is about it. A call then a visit to CPAM is probably called for methinks. Thanks for the input though.

Sue

[cooperlola]

Sue, this may help.  It makes it quite clear on the governement web-site that it only requires proof of residence (gas and electricity bill are mentioned) for EU citizens.  Maybe take along a photocopy when you visit your CPAM!

We're quite lucky with our mairie but a member of a neighbouring commune (she's French) says pretty much the same about her maire "All that interests him, is being a Ville Fleurie!"  The luck of the draw, I guess.

[Sunday Driver]

The decree issued on 21 March 2007 modifies the Code de l'Entree et du Sejour des Etrangers et du droit d'Asil.  For EU citizens now wishing to live in France, it introduces the following new conditions:

- for a stay in excess of three months, you must register with your mairie and obtain a local certificate of residence.  This is different to a carte/titre de sejour which remains optional;

- you must provide proof that you have sufficient resources so as not to become a burden on the social security and heathcare systems.  Resources must be at least to the level of RMI (5362,32€ per annum for a single person);

The requirements only apply to arrivals since the date of the decree.  Once you have been resident for five years, you are then considered permanently resident and no longer have to provide annual proof of resources.

If you hold an E-form, or you have the resources to pay the standard cotisations like any other French person, then there is no provision in either the above legislation or the Code de Securité Social to exclude you from the right to CMU - provided you pay.  In terms of the latest CPAM form, your avis d'impots provides the proof of resource required. 

 

[suein56]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]

The decree issued on 21 March 2007 modifies the Code de l'Entree et du Sejour des Etrangers et du droit d'Asil.  For EU citizens now wishing to live in France, it introduces the following new conditions:

Once you have been resident for five years, you are then considered permanently resident and no longer have to provide annual proof of resources.

If you have the resources to pay the standard cotisations like any other French person, then there is no provision in either the above legislation or the Code de Securité Social to exclude you from the right to CMU - provided you pay. 

In terms of the latest CPAM form, your avis d'impots provides the proof of resource required. 

[/quote]

Thanks SD - splendid news- especially looking forward to the 'once you have been resident 5 years etc' - only 3 more years to go!

Thanks cooperlola also - I will take copies of everything I can possibly think of that might help the situation.

Sue - feeling a tad happier now [:)]

[Sunday Driver]

[quote user="Puzzled"]

Have I understood the above right ?

Is it just those people whose level of income is below the RMI that may have difficulties re continuing healthcare ?

According to the new regulations, from March 2007, the right to stay in France is dependent upon having sufficient resources not be a burden on the social security benefits - which includes CMU.  Anyone whose resources fall below the specified limit for immigration would appear not to qualify.

and that those people ( whether retired or working ) whose income is above the RMI and that pay cotisations to CPAM based on their declared income, should have less to worry about ?

If you are newly arrived and your resources exceed the specified limit for immigration , then you will be permitted to take up residence in France for more than three months, at which time you will be obliged to affilliate for CMU (at your own cost) under the Code de la Securité Sociale - just like any other French tax paying resident.

Persons having taken up residence prior to the change in legislation and currently making contributions should therefore experience no change in their CMU position....

[/quote]

 

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Puzzled"]Thanks, perhaps you could put the misinformation ? in today's Times on line right.[:D][/quote]Well, given the choice of believing SD or one of Mr Murdoch's newspapers, I think I'd prefer to rely on SD, thanks!

Telling, that the reporter's main source seems to be an insurer, the same one whose articles I quoted in an earlier post (way back when.)

[Russethouse]

Given that the reporter was still doing research on Friday, I know what I think......

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Russethouse"]Given that the reporter was still doing research on Friday, [/quote]And on here, I think?!

As we have all only just got our forms to fill in, I don't know that there are many yet who are in a position to judge how this thing is being interpreted by the various CPAMs.  Only one poster on here has reported any problems thus far.  Difficult to know how the illustrious reporter is so well-informed given his statistical base, which must be pretty small.  LF'ers will of course, be armed with SD's advice and supporting copies of the relevant legislation, so we'll be OK, won't we?

[BJSLIV]

It will certainly be interesting to see whether early retirees are formally refused the right to the contributory CMU.

I initially thought that it would only be the recipients of the totally free cover who would be excluded. However on further thought it would be  iniquitous to refuse some, but then provide cover to someone contributing a token amount.

I have found this document which explains the anti fraud strategy which is being implemented and describes exchanges of data not only with the French revenue , but also foreign Soc-Security bodies.

http://www.securite-sociale.fr/institutions/fraudes/070310_prog_lutt_fraud.pdf

Anti fraud Mesure 16 (!!!) leads me to think that they will indeed be turning the whole edifice on its head, and rather than forcing people to contibute they will be required to have their own insurance based cover.
Un décret pris en application de la loi du 24 juillet 2006 en cours
d’élaboration viendra préciser les conditions dans lesquelles les
ressortissants communautaires ayant la qualité d’inactifs (rentiers,
étudiants, pensionnés) disposent du droit de séjour en France. Ces
inactifs doivent en conséquence, pour avoir droit au séjour, disposer de
ressources suffisantes et d’une couverture maladie. A défaut de
respecter ces conditions, le bénéfice des prestations de sécurité sociale
peut leur être refusé
Cette nouvelle réglementation conduit à une remise en cause - pour
partie - de la pratique actuelle des organismes de sécurité sociale
consistant à servir systématiquement les prestations de sécurité sociale
à tout ressortissant communautaire quel que soit son statut au regard de
son droit de séjour.
.
At least it will put an end to those silly arguments that we used to have about people not wanting to free load but being unable to contribute because the system forced them to take the CMU!

As I have said before I fear that some will feel forced to go illegal (E111/EHIC) simply because the costs are likely to be quite expensive. A complementaire for fifty year-olds typically cost £1500. A UK private insurance (ie hospital)package typically £2000. Nether of these provide comprehensive cover. Presumably to be acceptable to the authorities it would have to be comprehensive cover, with no exclsuions for pre-existing conditions , this would further increase the costs, given the small group over which the premiums will be averaged. I can see premiums in the region of £1500 per head.

Looking at Exeter Friendly Soc, I see they provide a package for Brits in Spain and Portugal which for someone in their mid fifties costs £150/200 per month, excluding GP care.

[Russethouse]

As I have said before I fear that some will feel forced to go illegal (E111/EHIC) simply because the costs are likely to be quite expensive

Doesn't that also beg the question that people in this position, perhaps receiving a diagnosis in France will want to return to the Uk for 'free' treatment, but will not be really resident  so will be illegal in the UK too ?

What a muddle !

[cooperlola]

But where do these people get their EHIC's from?  As ever, those who have a "holding address" - for want of a better expression - in the UK, and cheat the system anyway, will no doubt continue to do so.  We all know some - UK reg' cars, don't pay tax here, pop back to their old doc' in the UK for treatment etc. etc.  They have never bought into the system here so will continue not to be caught, and as you say, R/H, will continue to (contrary to all agreements) pay into the system "at home" (sic) - and I guess, get their EHIC's from there too - making that fact into their own pet excuse, which they will trot out for all to hear.

We shall see; it will be an interesting time between now and September 17th.

[Clair]

[quote user="BJSLIV"]I have found this document which explains the anti fraud strategy which is being implemented and describes exchanges of data not only with the French revenue , but also foreign Soc-Security bodies.

http://www.securite-sociale.fr/institutions/fraudes/070310_prog_lutt_fraud.pdf

Anti fraud Mesure 16 (!!!) leads me to think that they will indeed be turning the whole edifice on its head, and rather than forcing people to contibute they will be required to have their own insurance based cover.[/quote]

Measure 14 is of interest: allow exchange of data between the tax office and the Sécurité Sociale, thereby enabling identification of those who receive care or benefits, but are not yet known by the tax office.

Measure 18: check the standard of living of those who have a lifestyle incompatible with their low income. If necessary, assess the cost of social/mediacl care according to the lifestyle.

[cooperlola]

Well, Clair, it's quite clear from the letter which sparked all this, that anybody wanting to renew their Cartes Vitales will have to provide copies of their tax returns anyway.  But I'm puzzled because haven't we always had to do this, because otherwise, how are people's RFR's known to their CPAM's if they weren't producing them before?  The "investigation of their lifestyles" could produce some interesting results....!

[lucky luke]

This posting has really spooked me as I'm sure it has hundreds of others.

Can anyone put my mind at rest (or break it to me gently!)

I've been resident just over two years, my daughter goes to the local school while my husband still works in the UK.

At the moment we use form E109, have a Carte Vital and are paying into a top-up scheme. However, my husband will retire in October (he will be 57) - he has already applied for form E106 and we thought things would be OK. Our income from his Teachers Pension will be over 12k, but he won't reach state retirement age until 2015. As he has to pay tax in England on his pension we won't be in the French system.

Will this mean that we will have to take out a full insurance once the E106 expires? I really don't think we could afford this (primarily as hubby has long-sta,nding health issues such as gout, an underactive thyroid and hypertension)?

As yet we've received no letters so I maybe jumping the gun, but given what we know already, what are our options? If I were to look for work (which I'm more than happy to do) would this get us into the system? Sorry if this is hijacking the post, any advice would be welcome.

Many thanks

LL

[Will]

If you have an E form, you are covered as a result of that.

Although the pension will be taxed in Britain, you still have to be part of the French system and declare your income in France.

As for after the E form expires, it's a matter of how certain definitions will be interpreted. The current thinking suggests that if you have an income above RMI level, you will contribute to the system just as people do at present. If you do not, you will either be expected to take out private health insurance (e.g. if you are asset-rich but have low income, as many British do who live off capital and only have a smallish amount of interest as income), or you will not be permitted to stay in France.

But until a significant number of people have come to the end of their E form cover under the new rules it is not possible to say for sure. Certainly some people do seem to have been refused continuing cover, according to one insurer, and it was presumably one of these that was featured in the Sunday Times article.

It's what happens in several other Euopean countries. Having to take out private health insurance does not seem to stop people emigrating to Spain, for example.

 

[Bugsy]

[quote user="cooperlola"]anybody wanting to renew their Cartes Vitales [/quote]

Just a question. We both have Cartes Vitales issued in 2003. There is no indication on the cards as to an expiry date and they have both been used recently.

Under what circumstances would anyone need to renew these cards?