CPAM - Proof of residence

[woolybanana]

Forget the article in the Times. It is inaccurate. Just wait awhile

[LesLauriers]

[quote user="Tony F Dordogne"]

Don't understand how income is not returnable on your tax form, my accountant tells me that in France you had to declare all income on your tax forms tho some of it may be ameliorated for tax purposes?[/quote]

Tony, there are a number of tax free, social charge free, savings accounts available depending upon your situation, however they are all limited in the amount that can be invested. This is from the La Poste (La Banque Postale) website:

Une rémunération intéressante

Avec votre Livret de Développement Durable (anciennement Codevi), vous bénéficiez d'une rémunération de 3%* nets.

Aucune fiscalité

Les

intérêts de votre épargne sont exonérés d'impôt et de prélèvements

sociaux : quel qu'en soit le montant, vous n'avez pas à les déclarer.

"If I understand correctly it's the tax return figure that is used to

determine whether or not you can get CMU but surely if your

'non-taxable' income is added to your taxable income and that puts your

income over the limit, you wouldn't  and perhaps shouldn't get the CMU

payments as you then have additional income which puts you out of the

CMU banding."

CMU de base asks you for your RFR, CMU complémentaire asks for all income from whatever source.

[Gyn_Paul]

I suspect that the 'bet-hedging' tone of the Newcastle leaflet ("...you may

be entitled...etc) is the effect of trying to write a leaflet which is

applicable in all EU countries, some of which may not have the local

equivalent of Ayant Droit. I've never encountered a CPAM person who

didn't think it was applicable for a spouse here. Mind you, it's no

skin off any french person's nose, as the costs incurred by those

covered by an E121 are re-embursed by the UK.

p

[cooperlola]

Duplicate post deleted - the reply function seems to be a bit nuts this morning!

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Gyn_Paul"]Mind you, it's no skin off any french person's nose, as the costs incurred by those covered by an E121 are re-embursed by the UK.

p

[/quote]Paul, as I understand it, the costs are not re-imbursed, precisely.  What happens is that a fixed sum is paid by the UK government to that of the person's new country of residence each year.  Whether it covers all the costs would then rather depend upon how sickly the person was! 

But you are right I suspect, "bet-hedging" is precisely what it is!  I can find absolutely nowhere in any government leaflet, which will truly commit to defining what does and does not constitute a dependent.  The only advice is to apply for one for your dependents who are living with you - nowhere is there any definition that I can find, nor guarantee, that they will be successful.  As you say though, I have certainly never heard of anybody who hasn't got them when they asked.  But maybe if the younger partner were still working, or they had not been married for long, this would constitute an exception.  Apply and hope - you'll probably be OK - seems to be about right.

[Hagar]

When we first moved over my wife was issued with an e106 for 2 yrs and 6 months. I was issued with one for only six months. At the end of the six months I still hadn't registered the business so needed to be included on my wife's "attestation".

I called Newcastle who then sent me a letter (copied to CPAM in french) which simply confirmed that I was no longer entitled to health care cover from the UK - no reference to my wife's entitlement nor to any notion of dependancy, in fact no refernece to my wife at all. The letter was handed in to CPAM (along with copies of all the usual birth/marriage certs etc) and within a couple of weeks they re-issued my wife's "attestation" with my name added.

Therefore it would seem to me that it is the French authorities that decide whether or not you are dependant - not the DWP.

In this neck of the woods it might be advisable to check the results for OM before going into CPAM.

rgds

Hagar

 

 

 

[Russethouse]

What happens if the person you are 'piggy backed' onto dies and you are not of pensionable age ?

[Clair]

[quote user="Russethouse"]What happens if the person you are 'piggy backed' onto dies and you are not of pensionable age ?[/quote]

You'd have to find cover of your own, either through work, RMI or another spouse...

[cooperlola]

Hagar, my situation (with the sexes reversed!) was similar.  However, on looking at my o/h's E106, there was a cross in a box somewhere that indicated that it covered his dependents.  We took this along to the CPAM and they added me on.  But as you say, the letter to me from Newcastle, ending my entitilements,  did not make any mention of this, we had to figure it out for ourselves.

Clair : None of those alternatives sounds too great!....

[Grecian]

After phoning Newcastle this morning, and having spoken to a very nice lady, regarding E121s and 'piggybacking'. She informed me that if anyone is receiving long-term incapacity benefit, and in our case wished to move to France to live permanently, then I would be included on the E121, provided I did not work in France. The only bit I did not like the sound of is: 'as it stands at the moment', not sure what she was implying there.

However she did stress that it is upto the French authorities, as to whether they accept the dependant on the E121 at their end, although she did also mention that she is not aware of any problems.

I now have to ask the question does anybody know if  the acceptance is based on a departmental basis, or is it literally down to CPAM in every local town/city? We are looking to move into, Vendee (85), so if they do not recognise 'piggybacking', then obviously it would be prudent to move into a department that does!

Hope this helps.

 

[Bastet]

[quote user="LesLauriers"][quote user="Tony F Dordogne"]

Don't understand how income is not returnable on your tax form, my accountant tells me that in France you had to declare all income on your tax forms tho some of it may be ameliorated for tax purposes?[/quote]

Tony, there are a number of tax free, social charge free, savings accounts available depending upon your situation, however they are all limited in the amount that can be invested. This is from the La Poste (La Banque Postale) website:

Une rémunération intéressante
Avec votre Livret de Développement Durable (anciennement Codevi), vous bénéficiez d'une rémunération de 3%* nets.

Aucune fiscalité
Les intérêts de votre épargne sont exonérés d'impôt et de prélèvements sociaux : quel qu'en soit le montant, vous n'avez pas à les déclarer.

"If I understand correctly it's the tax return figure that is used to determine whether or not you can get CMU but surely if your 'non-taxable' income is added to your taxable income and that puts your income over the limit, you wouldn't  and perhaps shouldn't get the CMU payments as you then have additional income which puts you out of the CMU banding."

CMU de base asks you for your RFR, CMU complémentaire asks for all income from whatever source.[/quote]

We do indeed have tax free (but not social charge free) savings accounts which are represented on the impots forms, but  the actual amount of interest is not declared.

We have never applied for CMU complémentaire, just the affiliation to CMU de base.  Maybe I've been filling in the wrong form all these years........Does this mean we don't need to put anything other than the RFR ?   We do have accountants for my OH's business but they are extremely difficult to get hold of.  I can always try camping out  on their doorstep, I suppose.....

[LesLauriers]

[quote user="Bastet"]

We do indeed have tax free (but not social charge free) savings accounts which are represented on the impots forms, but  the actual amount of interest is not declared.

[/quote]

As I have never found a worthwhile savings account which is tax free but not social charge free, (if not declared then social charges are presumably deducted at source) could you tell me what this account is called?

[Suninfrance]

I am very disturbed by the implications of this thread.

We have lived in France now (our only residence) for 3 years now.  The Carte de Sejour was not longer required by the time we moved here.  My E106 expired last January and at the moment I am "piggy backing" from my husbands E106 which runs out in January.

OH has another 9 years before he reaches retirement and me 11 years.  Our tax form has been "lost" in the last two years.   I was led to believe that we needed to be accountable in the tax system to receive health benefits when our E106's ran out. 

The whole tax/health thing seems to be a complete nightmare and with this new rule, I am worried.  I need healthcare, having had a brain haemorrhage six years ago, I need annual checkups to make sure that the aneurysm is not expanding.

What I am getting from the messages on this thread is that unless you pay into a private health scheme (at great cost), that we will no longer be entitled to healthcare when OHs E106 runs out and we are not in the tax system.

It's a catch 22 it seems and our local tax office doesn't seem to be helping by losing our forms (despite the fact we have copies and a receipt for the form).

If this is Sarko's new legislation, surely this flies in the face of European ruling.

I need help and reassurance here as I cannot be without the security of healthcare while I am living here.  No proof of residency apart from bills and no E106 cover.

Can someone put my mind at rest or advise me on what I need to do.

Jan

[Tony F Dordogne]

If you want real assurance rather than some of the conflicting information being bandied about in the newspapers and opinions being expressed here, I'd visit my local CPAM office and speak to somebody there about the new regulations as they seem to be the Department tasked with dealing with this new legislation.

Do you have your taxe foncier bills and payment details, bank stuff, proof of residency in other ways?

[Suninfrance]

We have foncier and habitation (although that is under contention at the moment).  Last years revenue was "lost" this year we filled it in, copied it, got a reciept for it and then last week got a letter from them saying they hadn't recieved it even though it was filled in by one of their staff at their offices.

We have EDF, Water bills for the last 5 years (brought the house 5 years ago, lived here permanently for 3).  We also have bank account details, but our money is still in an English bank because the interest rates out here are not as good.

Do you think we should go to our local Mairie and enquire about a Carte de Sejour as we live here now and our house here is our only residence and not a "maison secondaire"?

Jan

[bigears]

hi

very interesting topic which doesn't thankfully affect us at the moment, but it could in the future.  We are early uk retirees in our mid 50s.  We are still tax resident in the uk after having kept our main residence there, we decided not to go the whole hog and only stay in france for 6 months and the other 6 months go back to the uk/travel the world.  We may decide to become french residents in the future, it will depend on a number of factors, this topic being just one.  If we did become resident and started to fill out tax forms here, I don't think we would have to pay any income tax in france as our uk teachers pensions have to be taxed at source.  We have some savings in the uk all in uk tax free isa type accounts.  We only have a current account in france which pays no income.  My wife does some temporary work in the uk each summer, most of the recompense is paid as expenses, the small amount of income is currently uk taxed.  Has anyone any idea if we could get into the french health system and some idea of the amount of social charge we would have to pay (E forms would not apply to us as too long since we paid NI in the UK). 

[rockstar]

I currently have all of the EDF quarterly bills to show as "proof of residence" but next year, as I have opted for a monthly payment option for electricity, I will not have these bills.  Under this option I get only one bill once a year from April to April - do you think CPAM will accept this or are there any other things to prove residence such as habitation, fonciére, telephone, water, dechetterie etc?  I can't help thinking that none of these really "prove" residence as you would/could get these if it was merely a holiday home.  I am becoming very puzzled about this - can you or anyone else help please?  

[cooperlola]

Rockstar, we have paid by this method since our arrival.  The direct debit bills still show your total annual consumption, so our CPAM were quite satisfied with them.  By this time next year, you will have a bill showing all you consumed in '07.

But I did pop our phone bills in too, just for "belt and braces".

[Sunday Driver]

Rockstar

The definitive proof of residence is your tax avis.  That's all you need to produce.

 

[cooperlola]

Bigears :

Somebody will tell you all the ins and outs and the details, but even if you do pay all your taxes in the UK (which is true for government pensions, of which I assume a teacher's is one), you still must fill in a French tax form.  This will reflect your worldwide income, whether you pay the tax here or elsewhere.  This includes any interest from building society/bank accounts, wherever they are held.

You may (depending upon your status) be entitled to E106 cover for up to two years, whereby the UK government will pay your healthcare costs up to the amount a French citizen would normallly get (around 70% - although this varies a little.)  If you like to live a risk-free life, it is very sensible to take out top up insurance cover for the addtional 30 or so %.

As the system has stood up to now, once your E106's have run out, and until you reach state pensionable age, you are obliged, by law, to enter the French CMU system.  Under this, which is what most of us in your position do at present, you pay 8% of your RFR (total worldwide income, less allowances) into the French health system.  This gives you the same assistance as your E106 did, so you need to keep the top-up cover going also. 

However, and here is the rub, rumours are abounding (some based in fact, some not) that under new laws either passed/about to be passed/being interpreted by some CPAMs as having being passed/being considered, people like thee and me who are retired but have not reached state pensionable age, will no longer be allowed to enter the French CMU system.  If this turns out to be true, either now or in the future, then all those in our situation will have to take out Full medical insurance cover until they reach UK state pensionable age when that 70% or so of the  costs will then again be covered by the UK under an E121.

Confused?  You won't be, after the next episode of.....

[chessfou]

[quote]Do you think we should go to our local Mairie and enquire about a Carte de Sejour as we live here now [suninfrance][/quote]

Yes, absolutely. It may not be the answer to the (potential) problem but it can't do any harm and it doesn't cost anything (beyond a couple of passport photos). When we arrived in France in May last year, getting a Titre de Séjour (it's "proper" title) was very close to the top of the "to do" list (immediately after car registration - insurance was sorted beforehand). I can't say that the TdS has yet been invaluable but it has been extremely useful for all sorts of things (especially for opening our PEA accounts).

[Bastet]

[quote user="LesLauriers"][quote user="Bastet"]

We do indeed have tax free (but not social charge free) savings accounts which are represented on the impots forms, but  the actual amount of interest is not declared.

[/quote]

As I have never found a worthwhile savings account which is tax free but not social charge free, (if not declared then social charges are presumably deducted at source) could you tell me what this account is called?
[/quote]

A PEP each (now unavailable to new investors) and a couple of Livrets. Social charges are deducted at source.

[bigears]

thanks cooperlola, it was very useful reply.  Have you any idea of what allowances a couple would get before the 8% is applied? It must be a distressing time for many ex-pats, it doesn't affect us at the moment but I will monitor developments so as to stay well informed. 

[cooperlola]

Makfai quotes a figure of around 7,000 euros here

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/4/1014548/ShowPost.aspx#1014548

[Ron Avery]

Anyone know what the yes/no boxes below the first two rows on the record of income for CPAM base refer to? 

 Mine came as a separate sheet, but even putting the guidance notes against the other page makes no sense.