BREAKING NEWS ON EXPAT HEALTH COVER

[Bugsy]

[quote user="Ron Avery"]Quite agree BJ, but then why were the two people in Gascony featured on the BBC articles asked to hand back their CVs?  Is there more to this story than meets the eye?  For example,  are they perhaps not filling in tax returns to confirm residency, running a business and not paying cotisations?  Changed circumstances etc etc, I think we should be told as these two are being held up as examples of what is happening now, not next year.[/quote]

Don't tell me you actually believe what you see on TV Ron.

It is, every day, turning more and more into a labour party propaganda machine.

[BJSLIV]

Does anyone know any Dutch, Belgian, German 'immigrants' who are in the same position

I think that the generally accepted answer is , no they are not affected. Why?

Because their national  health insurance scheme is more akin to a proper insurance based system which can cover them whilst abroad. The UK scheme is not , despite it's name , an insurance scheme and simply provides cover for all  resident's of the UK. Its the way it was set up. So no residence, basically no cover, give or take an E106.

I have no idea why its was set up that way, but it may have its roots in the desire to make a political statement of "inclusiveness" back in the good old days of Attlee's optimistic socialist government.

As far as the Hanrahan report was concerned, it had all the hallmarks of a filler item that had sat around for a few days, waiting for a quiet news day. The fact that its the same couple & Larry Fulton suggested both lazy journalism and an instsnt reaction to the original Times article. I did wonder if the fact that the retired UK couple featured in the French part were retired diplomats who had previously been in Fiji  would affect his contributions record and hence his entitlement to an E106. It wouldn't surprise me if they had some exemption from paying NI whilst abroad!

[cooperlola]

BJSLIV, I am trying (through some of my Dutch contacts) to find out about this.  But meanwhile, somebody must have some Dutch/Italian/Spanish/German etc neighbours they could talk to about this.  I agree though, my understanding is that their own countries cover them.  The UK is certainly out of step in that any resident gets free NHS care, whereas UK nationals do not get any help whilst living abroad, except under certain conditions.  It's a mess but we get what we're given, and when we lived in the UK we were certainly well provided for.  I bet many of our European compatriates would be pretty amazed if they realised the realities of 100% free healthcare - no mutuelles etc to pay, no matter how well off you are.  I'm not sure that this is appreciated at an individual level.

[Iceni]

[quote user="cooperlola"]BJSLIV, I am trying (through some of my Dutch contacts) to find out about this.  But meanwhile, somebody must have some Dutch/Italian/Spanish/German etc neighbours they could talk to about this.  I agree though, my understanding is that their own countries cover them.  The UK is certainly out of step in that any resident gets free NHS care, whereas UK nationals do not get any help whilst living abroad, except under certain conditions.  It's a mess but we get what we're given, and when we lived in the UK we were certainly well provided for.  I bet many of our European compatriates would be pretty amazed if they realised the realities of 100% free healthcare - no mutuelles etc to pay, no matter how well off you are.  I'm not sure that this is appreciated at an individual level.[/quote]

You obviously lived in a different UK than we did. Paid to save my life, to get John treatment and my son says that treatment in his part of the south makes private cover mandatory.

Di - who was finally diagnosed after 30 years by a French GP

[cooperlola]

I had lots of complaints about some of treatment (and more importantly, the way it's administered in some hospitals) I got in the UK - no doubt - but never paid for it! (Tunbridge Wells area).  But then again, it was the odd broken bone only - nothing life threatening (so far....[Www])

[cooperlola]

Back to topic : here is the info' about the 5 year residency rule :

http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F12017.xhtml?&n=Etrangers%20en%20France&l=N8&n=Citoyens%20communautaires%20en%20France&l=N112

(Thanks to Sunday Driver for pointing me in this direction)

[Chassaing]

[quote user="BJSLIV"]If things go as the French government plan nobody is scheduled to be be thrown out of the French system before the end of the year. If you are currently paying your 8%  then the deadline is March/April next year. The earliest victims would be anyone whose E106 runs out at the end of this year.[/quote]

Hi everyone, we are 2 of the early victims; however, it all depends on how the health insurance companies handle this, how bad it is going to be. For most early retirees the gap between the E106 and E121 will be small.  Like us it is 19 months.  All we need is cover so anything like the CMU would be a relief.  That said, it is the people who need treatment and soon have the problem, hopefully the EC will do something for them.

[BJSLIV]

I would expect the cost to be around €5000/6000 per couple, per year for a comprehensive package, though that would exclude any pre-existing conditions.

[cooperlola]

That's about right BJSLIV.  The most comprehensive policy I have looked at costs 5,500 euros for a couple one of whom is 55-59 and the other 60-64, which is probably around the age group we're talking about here, and even that includes an excess of 120 euros per claim.

However, one must of course subtract from that one's existing CMU contributions and the current mutuelle/top up payments.  So to my mind, people on an income of about 30,000 euros (cmu contibitions approx 1800, top up approx 1200) are going to be around 2,500 euros a year worse off.  And that assumes that they have no pre-existing conditions by the time they're kicked out of the CMU at the end of March.  And they're the lucky ones.

[kwaito]

[quote user="BJSLIV"]I would expect the cost to be around €5000/6000 per couple, per year for a comprehensive package, though that would exclude any pre-existing conditions.[/quote]

Questions if anyone can assist please: What happens to those with either pre-existing conditions or under current long term treatment in the French health system?

Is Sarkozy obliging us to 'take out private insurance or leave France' or can you opt to stay and pay for what you can afford to pay for?

What about those who are working but become ill or have an accident and are no longer able to work?

Also the 5 year residency rule has not (yet) changed, but I cannot see anywhere in the french documentation on the new health regulations that suggests it overrides the new policy on private health care for British people under 65 living and not working in France.

Finally when I came to France in 2004 I was told that as the carte de sejour was defunct, I should visit the Mairie for an attestation of residence, which they refused to give me saying in effect, you are here, I can see you in front of me, je m'en fiche des attestations etc. We laughed, not realising that it was to be our only proof of date of arrival.

[BJSLIV]

not realising that it was to be our only proof of date of arrival.

I can see that the date of arrival, as per your first French tax return, is going to be an important piece of evidence in all this.

 

[cooperlola]

1.  I assume the answer is "tough.  Pack up and go home."

2.  Any insurance currently available will not cover pre-existing conditions.  However, one is obliged to have full private cover, even if it doesn't cover these, under the new rules as I see them.  Ergo, the only way is to pay for these treatments yourself or, again, go back home where you came from.

3. I agree about the 5 year residency rule.  I'm still unclear as to whether one could get back into the CMU once one qualifies.  I'm trying to clear this up as it came from our Embassy and their info had been inaccurate in the past.  It looks right on the surface, but hasn't borne the scrutiny I've been able to give it thus far.  I have asked Mary Honeyball, and the Embassy, plus some political contacts of my own, if they can help get a difinitive answer from the French end, and the legislation which backs this up.

4.  You will have filled in a French tax return from the day you arrrived.  As this is good enough for the CPAMs at present, to prove residency, along with phone and electricity bills, during the period in which Cartes de sejour were not required, then one assumes that this will be acceptable as proof for those of us in that position. 

Assuming that the 5 year rule does turn out to give us rights to join the state healthcare system, then I suggest that you talk to your Mairie again once this becomes clear, and ask them if they can now provide an attestation, to say you have been here for as long as you have.

[Dave&Steph]

Crickey!

Does anyone know if we'll be classed as 'inactive' and lose our Carte Vitales' ?

We have lived in France since October 2002 (something about a 5 year rule?)

We have rental income in France and fill in the tax form and pay 11% 'Contributions Socales' on our income under the 'Microfoncier' tax scheme.

Our local CPAM (Drome 26) uses our french tax form 'Avis d'Imposition' to assess our contributions to the CMU and we have Carte Vitales.  So are we classed as inactive or does our rental 'business' count as an activity ?

Any advice most welome thanks

Steph and Dave

[makfai]

Edit: Having trouble this morning with the form saying 'Non matching quote blocks'.  Don't know why so have copied post

From: Dave&Steph

Crickey!

Does anyone know if we'll be classed as 'inactive' and lose our Carte Vitales' ?

We have lived in France since October 2002 (something about a 5 year rule?)

We have rental income in France and fill in the tax form and pay 11% 'Contributions Socales' on our income under the 'Microfoncier' tax scheme.

Our local CPAM (Drome 26) uses our french tax form 'Avis d'Imposition' to assess our contributions to the CMU and we have Carte Vitales.  So are we classed as inactive or does our rental 'business' count as an activity ?

Any advice most welome thanks

Steph and Dave

 

There is a reply on this in connection with your other query at

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/29/1035150/ShowPost.aspx#1035150

[Cat]

The "non matching quotes" error is due to Dave&Steph using an ampersand (&) in their forum name.  Perhaps, Dave or Steph, you would like to change your forum name to Dave and Steph?

[makfai]

[quote user="Mrs B"]

I have just received the attached email from the British Embassy on potential numbers of people looking for health insurance and I have forwarded to Kurt Harper:

 

"There are potentially 7420 'early retirees' from the UK who are resident in France and whose E106 will expire over the next 2.5 years.

We are unable to give figures regarding the number of UK 'early retirees' in France who are not E106 holders, or indeed any figures regarding persons with pre-existing conditions.

Kind regards.

British Embassy
Press and Public Affairs Section"

[/quote]

 

I wonder if this figure includes dependents as well as the E106 holders?

 

[cooperlola]

I don't think this is the thread for this - it is for us to list healthcare providers - an info' thread not a discussion?  Mods - should this be elsewhere?

However, my response is - why oh why hasn't our governement written to all these people to let them know about the bombshell which is about to hit them? Especially as they know who and where they all are.  At least 30% are likely to have no healthcare after the end of the year and at least they could be forwarned.  They can't all be glued to fora and newspapers.  It is scandalous how little has been disseminated about this to those affected.

[makfai]

[quote user="Cat"]The "non matching quotes" error is due to Dave&Steph using an ampersand (&) in their forum name.  Perhaps, Dave or Steph, you would like to change your forum name to Dave and Steph?[/quote]

 

I knew someone would know!

[Cat]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

I don't think this is the thread for this - it is for us to list healthcare providers - an info' thread not a discussion?  Mods - should this be elsewhere?

[/quote]

I've moved it to the "Breaking News" thread (as you can see).

[Cat]

The latest report in the Telegraph http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/10/01/nexpats101.xml

At least it seems fairly accurate.

[Danny]

[quote user="Cat"]

The latest report in the Telegraph http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/10/01/nexpats101.xml

At least it seems fairly accurate.

[/quote]

Cat, is this really accurate?

from the Telegraph article

"But under the new rules, inactive Britons or any other non-French European who has not reached retirement age can no longer receive CMU. Emergency medical care is still covered."

Is this true, that those from other EU countries in the same situation will also be affected? I understood that non brits were not affected in the same way.
Does anyone have concrete info on this, please.

Danny

[Cat]

I think the only thing we can take to be concrete info is the statement on the French Social Security site http://www.securite-sociale.fr/comprendre/europe/europe/cmu_inactifs.htm

Anything else, be it British Embassy statements, press reports or whatever, cannot, at the moment, be taken as concrete info.

As the new law actually comes into force today, we should hopefully start to see how it will pan out.

From my own point of view (but with no concrete evidence) I expect that the reporter at the Telegraph has translated the following part of the info from the Social security site without researching/understanding the way that Brit healthcare is funded in France, and how this differs from other EU countries.

Il n'y a pas dans la réglementation française de mesure spécifiques en matière d'assurance maladie pour les ressortissants britanniques. Ceux-ci reçoivent le même traitement, en droits et en obligations, que les autres citoyens de l'Union européenne résidant ou venant résider en France.

[cooperlola]

I have been struggling to get an answer on this one, Danny.  A Dutch friend of mine has passed this info' on to his parents who live here, to see if he can find out more but nothing so far.  Some forum members have mentioned in the past, that they have neighbours who are different nationalities (neither French not Brit) - could somebody out there perhaps ask them?

Have we any on here?  The language is the problem or I would do a google search - unfortunately I cannot understand what I'm reading, nor get the keywords to find anything by that method.

I have seen it mentioned that some countries' expatriate nationals get their healtcare from their own countries but don't know if that's true.  I think it was on another forum that Norwegians were mentioned in this way, in that they took their healthcare rights with them wherever they lived, but this is anecdotal at best.  Does anybody know for sure?

[bubble]

I have German friends and that is indeed the case. They have to pay their bills in total and then claim it back from their own government. This can be a problem too if your income will not cover the bills but at least you know the money will be paid back to you. I think this is the case even before ' official ' retirement but my friend is coming to visit this afternoon so will clarify with her.

If this legislation is to change from today would we not have expected some notification? For anyone not reading posts on the net or having UK TV how would they know to start looking for private healthcare ? I was in CPAM last week to ask for new European card and no mention made! My very friendly lady chatted as usual and ordered card on her computer so will wait and see what the end date is on it !!

[cooperlola]

Thank you Bubble, that's really helpful.

I agree about the notification (or lack of same), shameful.  I have written to the DWP centre for non-residents to suggest that they write to all E106 holders to warn them.  It seems to me that it is the very least they can do.