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BREAKING NEWS ON EXPAT HEALTH COVER


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Quillan said :-  "Out of the two people I know personally one completes a French tax return (7 years) and the other does not (5 Years). The latter is ex services and has asked for a tax form on more than one occasion and has been told no because of his UK military pension is his only source of income and as it is taxed in the UK completing a French tax return is pointless"

 

 

I believe there is a point to be made here, although not much help to people already suffering problems due to being misinformed. 

This is to insist that verbal advice and information given by an official, whether of CPAM or the Tax Office, should be written down and signed by the official, recorded by a suitable third party at the time of an interview, or copies of all correspondence kept if consultation is by letter or email.  Advice received verbally or by telephone is useless in this respect if any reference needs to be made to it in the future. 

Those with insufficient command of French should get English-speaking professional help, whether or not they think they understand their rights and obligations. 

Unfortunately, all tax officials and CPAM advisors are not necessarily au fait with all points of tax law, and the relationships between taxes paid, Contributions Sociales, health cover, local taxes, etc., especially those pertaining to foreign residents, and may unwittingly give the wrong information. 

I made an error in my tax return for 2004, which resulted in my tax and RFR being wrong.  I sent an email about this to my tax office. The official who replied corrected the tax, but his calculation resulted in the wrong RFR. When I queried this he replied that it didn’t matter, as I had no tax to pay anyway. I pointed out that the RFR affected other payments I had to make, and after 10 emails back and forth, over a period of two months, he sorted it out courteously and correctly. 

I am quite sure I would not have achieved this over the telephone or through a meeting, as I had to continually refer to the stack of information I had available, which would have been quite difficult in a direct discussion, and I would have had no record of the discussion.

By the way, we have CMU via our E121’s but we still maintain the private health cover we took out in 1985 – just in case.

 

Edits 16.06: correct para. spacing. 16:23: Add quote

 

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[quote user="cooperlola"]

[quote user="cheryla"]We had the usual letter saying that we'll be out in March, but I was wondering whether we should just wait for the authorities to sort themselves out or whether we ought to appeal. We've been here over 5 years and are on CMU. Another difficulty is that we'll be moving to a different region in early March.[/quote]Although I think the situation will be sorted for people like you, I still see no harm in doing a "belt and braces" job and appealing.  Also, CLEISS have asked us to tell everybody who has been rejected but who should not have been, to copy them in on the correspondance from your CPAM.

http://www.frenchhealthissues.eu/latest_news/new_regulations_confusion_09_01.htm

They are keen to have more details about what is going on at local level, Cheryla.

[/quote]

I would suggest that anyone in Cheryla's position (current CMU affiliate in receipt of the earlier, but now out-of-date rejection letter) should just let the CPAM reinstatement process take its course.  Given the new revised position, appealing will be a waste of time and may have the effect of diverting CPAM resources which would be better left available for the benefit of the E106'ers - who are in most need at the moment.

 

 

 

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Good points nomoss, but one big assumption is the people who have allegedly told these "facts" by French officials are telling the truth or more likely its what they thought they heard or wanted to believe was being told to them due to translation and language difficulties.  I know one man who swore blind he had been told the same about a service pension, but it turned out that he had gone into the tax office in February having been in France since December, he told them he had he had a UK "state" pension and he was told it was not necessary to do a tax return as it was only for one month not because he had a service pension.  Another claimed he did not have to declare his savings interest taxed in the UK, he knew that he was being told this was only the case because it was for a fairly short period and that it should have been tax free in the UK and taxed in France and subject to sociale charges etc, but he still claimsto all he meets that he had been "told" it was exempt from French tax[:'(].

Small point, you don't have CMU membership under an E 121.  You are covered by the general medical cover scheme, THE CMU is for inactives not the disabled or pensioners. E form holders are not in the CMU which is why the E106 holders have their problem.  By the way seems a waste of money having a PHI in the UK, exactly when and under what circumstances do you expect to use it?  As soon as they find out you are no longer NHS covered by the issue of your E 121 you would not be covered in the UK and it won't be valid in France either will it?

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[quote user="Sunday Driver"]  

I would suggest that anyone in Cheryla's position (current CMU affiliate in receipt of the earlier, but now out-of-date rejection letter) should just let the CPAM reinstatement process take its course.  Given the new revised position, appealing will be a waste of time and may have the effect of diverting CPAM resources which would be better left available for the benefit of the E106'ers - who are in most need at the moment.

[/quote]

 

Agreed but only if proof of residency was submitted when requested in September 2007, if not that needs to be addressed before its too late.

One point I am unsure about on all this is, have those who paid nothing into the CMU due to low income been allowed to continue in the CMU?  Wasn't the other plank of being allowed to stay in France having to prove sufficient income?

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[quote user="Ron Avery"]

Good points nomoss, but one big assumption is the people who have allegedly told these "facts" by French officials are telling the truth or more likely its what they thought they heard or wanted to believe was being told to them due to translation and language difficulties.............................................................................Small point, you don't have CMU membership under an E 121.  You are covered by the general medical cover scheme, THE CMU is for inactives not the disabled or pensioners............................................................. By the way seems a waste of money having a PHI in the UK, exactly when and under what circumstances do you expect to use it?  As soon as they find out you are no longer NHS covered by the issue of your E 121 you would not be covered in the UK and it won't be valid in France either will it?

[/quote]

I would never suggest anyone on this Forum was not telling the truth. My suggestions were for anyone unsure of their command of French.

Thanks for the correction, I should, of course, have written "Assurance Maladie"

I did not say our PHI is UK based. It is valid worldwide, and as I said, we keep it "just in case".

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[quote user="Ron Avery"]By the way seems a waste of money having a PHI in the UK, exactly when and under what circumstances do you expect to use it?  As soon as they find out you are no longer NHS covered by the issue of your E 121 you would not be covered in the UK and it won't be valid in France either will it?[/quote]

I too have PHI (PPP) covering myself and wife through my job and this has been changed from UK to International (not worldwide) at an additional voluntary annual cost of around £400.

Cheaper than a mutuelle [;-)]

When I do finally pack up work they have a scheme whereby one can continue privately but I have yet to look into the cost.

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Anybody who has lost their health cover on E106 expiry would have been very glad if they had kept on some sort of PHI, as they would have been covered for any conditions which developed in the meantime.  A new policy would not cover these, so anybody who kept a policy on may well be feeling pretty smug now, Ron - even though in theory they were "a waste of money".

Sunday Driver, whilst I agree with you in theory, both the French Health Ministry and CLEISS have told us that the decisions should be appealed, and certainly that any rejection letters sent out since the date of the new statement (14th December) be passed on to both CLEISS and CNAM.  There is little evidence to suggest that the less co-operative of the CPAMs are giving much more attention to E106ers than they are to CMU subscribers.  If one batch is being rejected then, seemingly, so is the other.  At the very least, if one's conscience suggests that you wait a month or so longer before appealing, for the sake of others, then please at least inform us of the details of your rejection as per our recent announcement:

http://www.frenchhealthissues.eu/latest_news/new_regulations_confusion_09_01.htm

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IFP (Internet French Property) have just passed on this e-mail from Stephanie Gaillard, of the French Health Department:

Bonjour,

 

Les personnes qui ont un emploi en France, même temporaire, cotisent de par leur statut de salarié à la sécurité sociale. A l'issue de leur contrat, ils bénéficient d'un maintien de leurs droits à l'assurance maladie.

 

Concernant vos autres questions sur la circulaire, celle-ci s'applique bien depuis le 23 novembre 2007. Elle a été publiée officiellement et il n'y aura pas d'autre textes d'application. De nouvelle instructions vont être données aux Cpam pour veiller à l'application de la circulaire.

Seule la situation des titulaires d'un E 106 fait actuellement l'objet d'un réexamen, mais nous ne pouvons vous donner plus de précisions à ce stade.

 

Enfin concernant la question des ayants droits, je vous confirme  que dès lors qu'une personne bénéficie de la CMU, ses ayants droit  bénéficient également de cette couverture, en application de l'article L 313-3 du code de la sécurité sociale.

 

Cordialement,

Stéphanie Gaillard

 

Translation (thanks,Clair!):Those who have has job in France, even temporary, contribute to the social security system through their employee status. At the end of their contract, they benefit from maintained rights to health insurance.

Regarding your other questions concerning the circular, it has been in application since in 23 Nov. 2007. It has been officially published and there will be no other legislation. New instructions will be given to CPAM to ensure the implementation of the circular.

The status of  E 106 holders is the only one currently under review, but we cannot provide you with more details at the moment.

 Finally one the rights on dependants, I can confirm that once a person has access to the CMU, his dependants also benefit from the cover, in accordance with article L 313-3 of the Social Security Code.

 

The health department is still working on persuading and helping CPAMs to implement the December statement. As you will see, the status of E106 holders is still being discussed, so there may be more changes yet to come for them (whether with chronic conditions and existing illnesses or not). FHI continues to press their case from all angles.

 

 


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[quote user="Owen"]Hello Bill,

Nothing to worry about. If you have not yet received the demand from URSSAF you should not pay or attempt to pay. I am not promoting dishonesty. It is just you have to send off a cut-off slip with your cheque to URSSAF and this identifies you via account number/social security number and the like. But if you do send a cheque not only will it be cashed but you still may receive another demand, in due course, because the slip has not been included. [/quote]

Just got a nice letter today dated 11/1/08 from URSSAF saying we have been

kicked out of the CMU as of 31/12/07.

At the end of November we got the usual letters re income, a

letter saying we were out of the system from 31/3/08, a “renouvelle CMU Base” letter

telling us how much we were to pay and an attestation all together (dated 24

October).

I phoned the English helpline today re the URSSAF letter and

the response was we would need to take out private healthcare. Then I was told

it was probably due to the fact that I had not made a cotisation payment yet. I

explained that I had not received a letter/slip asking for payment, which did not

get a response other than “visit CPAM”.

Strange thing is we were at the doctors this week, used our

CV and CPAM have made a refund of the fee dated 16/1/08. We also visited CPAM

on Monday 14/1/08 and they said everything was in order and to call again next month

when they could give us more details of the 5 year rule and/or the “if you were

already in the CMU you are OK (maybe)” rule. We have been in the CMU for almost five years and lived here for five and a half years.

When are they going to get their b****y act together??

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Jay

I am surprised that you have received this letter so late in the process.  You should phone URSSAF and ask why you are being kicked out of URSSAF.  If you have the one that says from info received from CPAM, what date does it give?  A lot of these URSSAF letters were issued in error by them because they were advised by CPAMs computer that the requirements for proving residency required before 17 september 2007 had not been met, this was because the CPAMs had not entered the data provided as at that time we were all being kicked out.

For peace of mind phone URSSAF, not CPAM,  they are not the most helpful of people but should confirm the error.  You should have by now received a letter from URSSAF telling you what your cotisations were for 2008 and if in the CMU before November 2007, a new Attestation from your CPAM as we in 12 have.  It would seem some departments are very late clearing the systems through and roque letters are still appearing.  At the same time ask your own CPAM what is happening, the English speaking phone line is provided by the Manche CPAM and they can only give general advice,  they are not responsible for the actions of other area's CPAMs, they may however phone your CPAM for you if your French is not up to it yet.

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Charente Dept 16

 

WE too have received today a letter from URSSAF saying we are no longer in the system from 31st December.

This is a NEW error (I hope).

Yes we have been here more than 5 yrs etc tax returns carte de sejour .

August    2007 invite from CPAM to renew our CMU cover we complete form and hand in with tax return.

September   Letter that we had not submitted application from CPAM ( It was a computer error)

November     Letter saying we had until 31st March 2008 and then had to find private insurance

November Letter from URSSAF saying that our new cotisations would be XXX every three months

December  Bill from URSSAF for first three months cotisations payable by 31st December which we have paid.

Unfortunatly too late today to phone will have to wait till Monday but from past experience a personal visit to CPAM will be the only way to sort it out ,URSSAF will not be interested they appear to only be a collection agency. 

 

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I tried to have a telephone conversation with a young girl at URSSAF today. While my French is not particularly good I got the distinct impression they couldn't care less, and was told to contact CPAM.

The only difference here is I have not paid my cotisation as I have not had a letter with the tear off slip. I sent a letter straight back asking for more details and enclosed previous letters giving us until 31 March 08. Let's hope it is yet another **** up.

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It would appear that some people seem to got the short end of the stick. We received our marching order letter, our bill for the year, followed by the quarterly bill which we paid and was processed, then sent off the standard appeal letter which was followed by a response. In the light of your experience and that of others, perhaps the mail box will hold some bad news in the coming days.

 

ams

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There is a new statement on the British Embassy website, issued yesterday.  It does not say much of note that we do not know already:

Access to the French healthcare system for early retirees from other EU countries

(updated 18/01/2008)

 

We have ensured that the French authorities are fully aware of the specific circumstances of E106 holders already resident in France who do not have existing access to CMU and who may not be able to secure private health insurance for various reasons when their E106 expires.

 

Following discussions to highlight the need for urgent clarification in cases where the E106 is due to expire imminently, we have been told that people will have the safeguard of essential immediate healthcare provision. We have been in regular contact with the French Health Ministry and have requested that the Ministry issues clear guidelines for people in these circumstances. We are still awaiting a response, though we have underlined the urgency of our request.

 

We are also aware that some people, despite the guidelines saying that anyone registered before 23 Nov 2007 can remain in the system, are experiencing problems getting confirmation of this. We have highlighted the issue to the French Health Ministry so that their communications are co-ordinated as soon as possible.

 

Until we are able to provide an update on this website, people are advised to contact the CNAM for guidance on their individual circumstances and how they may be eligible for access to healthcare via the CMU (eg those with an unforeseen medical condition that prevents them getting private insurance) or via the Aide Médicale d'Etat (eg those who find themselves without health cover and therefore in an "irregular situation" of residency).

 

FHI has responded to them, as follows:

 

"Thank you very much for keeping us in touch with this.  Might we suggest however, that the statement is re-worded to say "... for various reasons since their E106s expired" and ...."where the E106 recently expired...."

As you are aware, the majority of E106s for this year, ran out on 6th January, and people are actually without any cover, including those who are ill and awaiting treatment.  We believe that your statement may cause some anger in those quarters, if it is not evident that you realise they are already in this predicament, rather than awaiting it!"

 

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[quote user="J.R."]

What has happened to journalism?

[/quote]

It was actually good journalism in that it was informative, rather than concentrating on misapprehensions (e.g. the French health system is free) or hysteria. 2000€ is the sort of figure I have seen quoted as an annual premium for private health insurance for somebody in good health. Some quotes are apparently considerably higher. Existing conditions, or advancing age, can easily increase that figure considerably - and where private insurance is available then entry into the French state system will not be possible. Becoming 'actif', which the writer believes is possible, provides a potential solution to this problem. Yes, paying cotisations of 2350€ on a turnover of 1000€ does not make business sense, but the reason is not to run a business, it's to get health cover in the French system. And having paid for a period (unspcified, but finite) one apparently becomes eligible for inclusion in the system even when not working.

On the face of it, it looks like a viable solution - not for everybody, but for many.

My concern is how long will it take the French authorities to change the rules again to discourage, or outlaw, such sham businesses?

 

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[quote user="Will"][

It was actually good journalism in that it was informative, rather than concentrating on misapprehensions (e.g. the French health system is free)

[/quote]

It was also the clearest and most accurate explanation of the CMU that I have seen in the British Press..

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You are right Will in that obviously in some cases a good alternative is going to have to be found (although I doubt his PHI quotes but he should know, insurance is his business - that's realistic for basic cover, but not so for any which conforms to the full regs.)  But it is going to encourage, to my mind, a lot of made-up companies existing for no other reason than to get healthcare.  There was a lot of chat when this subject was first mooted about people paying each other via cheques d'emploi but not actually doing anything, with the same aim in view.  I can't believe that the authorities will turn a blind eye to this sort of thing for long.  Ultimately, that won't help those who genuinely start legitimate businesses here, imo.
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