BREAKING NEWS ON EXPAT HEALTH COVER

[Leslie]

I have just seen the following posting on the IFP website, which states the French Government have now issued a clarification statement on this whole issue. Looks like we might all need to find a job!

http://forums.french-property.com/post4218.html#p4218

 

 

[cooperlola]

I think that para 3 in the French press release does, Puzzled.  6 months to find private health insurance - that's how I read it, anyway.

[BJSLIV]

Au regard du droit communautaire, la libre circulation et le droit de séjour des citoyens européens sont des principes et ceux-ci ne peuvent se voir exiger un titre de séjour. Néanmoins, une directive de 2004 fixe certains critères pour les inactifs ainsi que les étudiants et les membres de leur famille :

Au titre de la directive 2004/38, la régularité du séjour de ces personnes dans un autre Etat membre que leur Etat d’origine est conditionnée par 2 critères :
- la détention d'une assurance maladie préalable
- des ressources suffisantes afin de ne pas devenir une charge déraisonnable pour les finances de l'Etat d'accueil.

Cette nouvelle directive a été transposée en droit français notamment par la loi 2006-911 du 24 juillet 2006 et par le décret 2007-371 du 21 mars 2007.

Ces deux textes qui reprennent fidèlement ces deux critères conduisent à considérer qu’un ressortissant communautaire inactif venant résider dans notre pays ne peut se prévaloir d’un droit au séjour s’il n’est pas titulaire au préalable d’une couverture maladie.

Au regard de ces deux textes, voici les précisions que souhaite apporter la sécurité sociale concernant la situation des ressortissants britanniques :

1) Il n'y a pas dans la réglementation française de mesure spécifiques en matière d'assurance maladie pour les ressortissants britanniques. Ceux-ci reçoivent le même traitement, en droits et en obligations, que les autres citoyens de l'Union européenne résidant ou venant résider en France.

2) Il n'y a aucune modification pour les personnes qui peuvent présenter une attestation (E 106 ou E 121) de droit aux prestations d'assurance maladie délivrée par l'administration britannique. Ils continuent à pouvoir s'inscrire auprès de la CPAM de leur lieu de résidence pour bénéficier des prestations françaises servies pour le compte du régime britannique, aussi longtemps que ces attestations sont valables.

3) Pour les personnes inactives qui bénéficiaient déjà de la CMU du fait de la réglementation antérieure, il leur est accordé un délai pour 6 mois, pour s'affilier à une assurance privée. Pendant cette période, ils continueront à être couverts par la CMU.

4) Pour les nouvelles demandes, c'est à dire pour les personnes inactives qui viennent résider en France et sollicitent le bénéfice de la CMU, les CPAM doivent refuser car, aux termes de la directive européenne 2004/38 sur le droit de séjour des citoyens de l'Union européenne (transposée notamment sur cet aspect par le décret n° 2007-371 du 21 mars 2007), ces personnes inactives doivent détenir une assurance maladie préalable à leur installation en France.

5) Si une personne inactive n'est pas couverte par le régime d'assurance maladie d'un autre Etat membre au moment de son installation en France, elles doivent contracter une assurance privée avant ou dès leur arrivée en France.

6) Des instructions vont être rapidement diffusées aux caisses d'assurance maladie françaises pour leur rappeler ces dispositions et leur préciser qu'elles s'appliquent à toutes les personnes concernées, seules les personnes déjà admises à la CMU bénéficiant du délai mentionné au point 3) ci-dessus.

7) Pour toute information complémentaire concernant leur situation personnelle, les concernées peuvent s'adresser aux services de la CNAMTS (service téléphonique anglophone + 33 (0)8 20 90 42 12) ou au CLEISS (+ 33 (0)1 45 26 33 41).

[Cat]

Whoa, that's not what we were led to believe.  They are now saying (to paraphrase)  that "inactive" people who currently benefit from CMU (due to the previous rules) are to be given a 6 month period of grace to find a private health assurer.

The clearer it becomes, the stickier it gets!

 

[Clair]

I'd like to see the original source for this...

[Pommier]

Who or what are CNAMTS and CLEISS?

Were the previous official statements (saying that those already covered by CMU could stay in the system) wrong, or is this statement wrong?

The government sites for CPAM and CMU still state that the only qualification for CMU is to be a stable resident of France.

I thought that this issue had (mostly) been clarified, but this puts everything back to square one!

Cheryl

[BJSLIV]

As nobody has, as yet, been able to find the  source of this document, I'm hoping that its an elaborate hoax! Fingers crossed.

[Russethouse]

Quite - thats why it would be good to see a reliable official source.

[Clair]

Last Saturday's Telegraph (International Health Insurance - 15/09/07) had an update talking about a "compromise" concerning existing E106 users.

I have not been able to locate the article on the online paper.

Contrary to the quote above, its states that (my bold)

[quote]"... British officials announced good news for economically inactive expatriates below pensionable age who are already registered users of state health.

... The French made it clear that while there would be no retrospective element to the clampdown, tougher rules would apply from the end of this month.

... we have established that those in the universal French health system will be able to remain in it. We are expecting the French government to issue a statement to this effect.

... the French Ministry of Health has assured us that the provision of healthcare to people already resident in France would not be affected...[/quote]

I think I'll wait for a statement issued by the French Ministry of Health...

[Cat]

But perhaps the statement from the spokeswoman for the Caisse Nationale held the key all along...

[quote user="Cat"]

The information was a quote from Mathilde Maufras,  spokeswoman for the Caisse Nationale d'Assurance Maladie. 
Maufras told him: "Les personnes inactives qui arrivent en France ne peuvent plus prétendre à la CMU de base et sont appelés à souscrire une assurance auprès de prestataires privés. Cela ne concerne pas, jusqu'à nouvel ordre, les personnes qui beneficient actuellement de la CMU." 
 
He fears that that the key words there may be jusqu'à nouvel ordre...

[/quote]

I think you translated that as "until we hear differently" Clair?

[Clair]

Indeed... "until further notice"

The problem is that there are so many people talking to so many French and UK officials from so many departments, everyone seems to be putting his or her spin on this...

All I want to is read for myself whatever statement is issued by the French Ministry of Health, because they are the only ones whose voice counts.

[Clair]

[quote user="cheryla"]Who or what are CNAMTS and CLEISS?[/quote]

CLEISS = Centre de Liaisons Européennes et Internationales de Sécurités Sociales

CNAMTS = Caisse Nationale d'Assurance Maladie des Travailleurs Salariés

That last one has an international section: La mission des relations européennes internationales et de la coopération.

[Sunday Driver]

Here is [url=http://www.securite-sociale.fr/comprendre/europe/europe/cmu_inactifs.htm]the source[/url] of the latest informtion mentioned by IFP.

It's published by the caisses nationales and it seems to contradict the information originally provided in the recent British Embassy press release (the wording of which would presumably have been jointly agreed by the Embassy and the French Health Ministry):

“The British Embassy are in close touch with the French Ministry of Health to clarify the situation regarding healthcare provision for EU citizens who are inactive and below retirement age in France. The French authorities are applying strictly the EU Directive (2004/38) which will mean modifying the healthcare coverage available to some inactive people, including early retirees, from other EU countries who will be taking up residence in France. However, the French Ministry of Health have assured us that the provision of healthcare to people already resident in France will not be affected.”

 

 

 

[BJSLIV]

So it's not a hoax.

I suppose that strictly speaking  the two documents are not contradictory.

Provision of health-care will not be affected .

You  get it through the CMU or you pay for it yourself either by private insurance or in cash.[:(]

PS I note that though its supposed to be a French policy for EU citizens this note is entitled

Affiliation à la CMU pour les ressortissants britanniques inactifs

[Russethouse]

How does his add up with various reports of people recently being able to renew their entitlement ?

[BJSLIV]

How does his add up with various reports of people recently being able to renew their entitlement ?

As Para 6 says

6) Des instructions vont être rapidement diffusées aux caisses d'assurance maladie françaises pour leur rappeler ces dispositions et leur préciser qu'elles s'appliquent à toutes les personnes concernées, seules les personnes déjà admises à la CMU bénéficiant du délai mentionné au point 3) ci-dessus.

1) The rules have yet to be sent to the local Caisses

and/or

2) Everyone already in the CMU will in any case have six month period of grace

[Russethouse]

Thanks BJSLIV.......

[Tony F Dordogne]

Interesting the way this is moving all over the place - definitive statements aren't so definitive after a few days or sometimes hours.

The comment about Britanniques is very interesting.  I bumped into a chum yesterday who has just deregistered his business - he's just had enough of working which is a shame because he was a top decorator.  Last week he had a meeting with his accountant who told him that the accountancy practitioners have been instructed to report any of their clients to the authorities - essentially, the revenue - if they see any cause for concern in their accounts, like the fact that a family of 4 is apparently living on 10,000 euros a year and is then able to claim benefits.  And, according to the accountant, it's especially targetted at British.

Now some of this could be chatter but with the health care changes, is this a concerted effort, tax system and health system, to clean the stable?

And as for the French implementing a law now that they could and perhaps should have implimented a couple years ago, that's their right to do so, the fact they didn't do so meant a lot of people who unlike Puzzled aren't honest, truthful, legal and decent have been able to abuse the system and now will be less able to do so.

I just think back to the UK approach to this type of thing - for Brits in France, read Polish plumbers, fruit pickers etc - there was and is enough opposition to illegal workers and residents in the UK and an ongoing clamour for the government there to sort the problem out.  All the French government are doing is just that with some of its illegal residents, the problem is that some of the legal residents are being caught up in the fall-out.  And as for mounting a legal challenge, there's no legal aid for this sort of thing in France - surely if you want to spend your money on something it's better to invest in healthcare insurance rather than spending it on a long running and expensive legal challenge?

And I return to my previous comment - there is no way that the bureaucratic French government will stick with having a gap in their records for those of us who came post TdS and pre this new implementation, eventually we'll all be required to register.  OH and I will be off to the Prefecture to get a TdS at the earliest possible opportunity, just to make life easier.

[Ron Avery]

Perhaps we should all wait and see what transpires.  There is so much interpretation and translating going on that it is no wonder that nobody really knows the future policy regarding the CMU.

I would like to see a definition of "inactives. It has been assumed that this is people who have taken early retirement, but could it be unemployed?  Many French take early retirement (another target of Sarkosy's reforms) and are retraites not inactives.  My T de S says I am retraite, not inactive. Also I would like CMU defined as there are two sorts, the free one and the paid into one.

Just to correct Puzzled, the French have not done away with the Titre de Sejour, you can still get one but it is not just issued, you have to prove you can live here without being a burden on the French state, but it is not necessary to have one any longer if you are an EU citizen.  Also as far as I know, it was never a requirement for Britons to have private medical insurance in France, although they could choose to do so until it was banned under the CMU reforms.

[Pommier]

We've got Titre de Sejours having lived here for over five years, but as far as I can see, that doesn't make any difference (or does it?).

We are on CMU (as we were legally required to be), paying 8% each year, but it looks as if we'll be in the same boat as all other early retireds next March i.e. get private health insurance or get out of France

[ams]

Just got a quote from Axa, just €10,000.00 for the two of us. !!!!!!!

 

They advised we telephone the helpline. talked with a woman and explained that we seem to be in very fast shifting sands and could she clarify the situation. It appears that the standard message is the same, go and get private insurance. however when i delved into the matter she admitted that the helpline was just for her region and that i would be better contacting my local CPAM office. She admitted that the matter was very confusing and different information is coming from different French sources.

 

ams

[cooperlola]

Thank you Ron, balanced as ever.  I think we all need to take a deep breath here and wait and see.  I spoke to my (very sensible) insurance broker last week.  His advice, which seemed excellent to me then, and still does, is to make as few waves as possible locally - particularly as the various CPAMs seem to have been getting as much contradictory advice as we have, and have been interpreting it differently too.  His own take on this matter was that, until the rumours started and the authorities here began to get hundreds of phone calls on the subject, many CPAMs were renewing Cartes Vitales for the early retired in the normal way. It was not until questions were being asked when the "proof of residency" documents were being submitted, that they went to their central offices for clarification and some then began to refuse renewal.

For myself, I have submitted the documents and await a response.  Until it comes back in the negative, I will just wait to see what happens.  Meanwhile, I have a bit of time to compare all the available alternative full cover policies and read all the small print so we can chose the one which will suit us best, should the need arise.

If we lose out, we may moan, but I do not see that a few (and we still are comparatively few) Brits and other Europeans are going to do much to change the mindset of the new government here.  When we move to another country and are not citizens of that country, then we accept the laws of the land, by default.  We may not like some of them, but that is the way it is.  If they change while we are here, it is annoying and even may be devastating for some - but it is unrealistic to expect them to remain the same forever.

As individuals, there is little we can do about it.  The best course of action, rather than making individual challenges is - it seems to me - to approach our government in the UK to ask what their intentions are - and certainly to get a clear statement which we can believe.  We thought we had one - and now totally contradictory information appears from yet another source.

[Russethouse]

I think I'll wait for a statement issued by the French Ministry of Health...

Me too

Has the British embassy in Paris changed its statement ?

 

[Helen]

[quote user="Ron Avery"]

 

I would like to see a definition of "inactives. It has been assumed that this is people who have taken early retirement, but could it be unemployed?  

[/quote]

We've been trying to find this out as well. The wording on my husbands titre de Sejour   says pensionne. He's ex services so 'early  retired'. I found a chart of classifications of TDS. It is interesting that there were two classifications one for inactif: neither  pensionne nor etudiant the other for pensionners.

CE01 Ressort. CEE non actif ni retraité ni pensionné ni étudiant Dir N° 90.364 du 28/06/1990

N'a jamais exercé d'activités en France RCS sans droit au travail salarié (Does anyone know what RCS stands for?)

 (written on carte)  NON ACTIF : NI PENSIONNÉ NI Étudiant DIR N° 90.364 DU 28 JUIN 1990

CE02 Ressort. CEE retraité ou pensionné DIR N° 90.364 du 28/06/1990

N'a jamais exercé d'activités en France RCS sans droit au travail salarié

(written on carte) PENSIONNÉ DIR N° 90.364 DU 28 JUIN 1990

I'm also curious as to the interpretation  of this phrase from the new law on residency

Sauf si sa présence constitue une menace pour l'ordre public, le citoyen européen ou assimilé qui a résidé de façon légale et ininterrompue en France pendant les cinq années précédentes acquiert un droit au séjour permanent sur l'ensemble du territoire français.

A l'issue de cette période, il n'a plus besoin de justifier les conditions de son séjour (ressources par exemple). (my bolding)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sunday Driver]

For info - latest bulletin from the [url=http://forums.french-property.com/post4218.html#p4218]IFP website[/url]:

 

We have received a number of calls from those with a pre-existing medical condition who consider they will be unlikely to obtain private health insurance, or to obtain it at an affordable rate.

We have this morning spoken to the French authorities on this point. They advise that a more detailed circular will be issued in the near future, which MAY offer some concessions to those in this position. However, there is no timescale for publication of the circular, and no guarantee that any concessions will be offered.

We also learned this morning that the French authorities are fully expecting there will be a legal challenge to this new law. Indeed, not only are they expecting it, but there is some concern that it may well be successful. We believe there is concern, in particular, about the potential weakness of their position in the differing treatment being afforded to those from within the European Community and those outside of the EU. Thus, someone from the USA who is legally resident in France would have the right of access to the State health insurance system, whilst this right is not accorded to someone from the EU in the same position i.e. under retirement age and inactive.

We also consider that the French authorities have failed to properly consider how either temporary employment or business activity would affect the future rights of those from the EU to the State health insurance cover. In our view, if someone from the EU took employment or started a business, which later ceased, they would then have access into the State health insurance system, and would do so for an indefinite period. The civil servant with whom we spoke this morning did not disagree with this potential scenario. It may well be, therefore, that if this loophole exists, further steps may be taken to close it, at which point it is likely the risk of a legal transgression of both French and European law by the French Government will be even greater!