BREAKING NEWS ON EXPAT HEALTH COVER

[cooperlola]

Thanks, Ron. I don't think I can get that but if anybody else hears it...

[cooperlola]

A plain and simple explanation of the "5 year rule" and its implications :

Directive 2004/38/EC, which the French authorities are citing as
justification for the proposed changes, is concerned with 'the right of
citizens of the Union and their family members to move and reside freely
within the territory of the Member States'. It states very clearly that EU
citizens have the right of residence in another member state for a period of
longer than three months, as long as they have sufficient resources not to
become a burden on the host member state and have comprehensive sickness
insurance cover in the those member state.
Citizens residing in another member state for less than three months can be
granted social assistance, which includes health care, at the discretion of
the host member state. Once citizens have resided in France long enough to
be granted permanent status (5 years uninterrupted residency) any conditions
are dropped, because the legislation provides for equal treatment with
nationals ie the ability to access health care in the same way as French
citizens.

From Caroline Lucas, MEP

[Pommier]

I emailed the British Embassy asking for confirmation that UK citizens would be allowed to access French state health care after 5 years residency and have received this reply:

Hello

 

Thank you for contacting the Public Enquiries section of the British Embassy.  

 

The information on our website is based on information we  have received from (and double-checked with) the French Health Ministry, it relates to article L 122-1 - see  attachment below. Health officials are ensuring that the CPAM's advice is consistent and correct with this information.  

 

For further updated information concerning "French policy" applying to all inactive citizens from all EU countries. Please contact:

 

CPAM - The French Health Service (English language service):  

Tel:+33 (0)8 20 90 42 12

 

CLEISS - (France's helpdesk for international mobility and social security):

11 rue de la tour des Dames

75436 Paris cedex 09

Tel: +33 1 45 26 33 41  

http://www.cleiss.fr  

 

This is the attachment:

 

l'article L121-1 du même code qui fonde le droit au séjour du ressortissant communautaire:

Article L121-1

(Loi nº 2006-911 du 24 juillet 2006 art. 23 II Journal Officiel du 25 juillet rectificatif JOrF 16 septembre 2006)

Sauf si sa présence constitue une menace pour l'ordre public, tout citoyen de l'Union européenne, tout ressortissant d'un autre Etat partie à l'accord sur l'Espace économique européen ou de la Confédération suisse a le droit de séjourner en France pour une durée supérieure à trois mois s'il satisfait à l'une des conditions suivantes :
1º S'il exerce une activité professionnelle en France ;
2º S'il dispose pour lui et pour les membres de sa famille tels que visés au 4º de ressources suffisantes afin de ne pas devenir une charge pour le système d'assistance sociale, ainsi que d'une assurance maladie ;
3º S'il est inscrit dans un établissement fonctionnant conformément aux dispositions législatives et réglementaires en vigueur pour y suivre à titre principal des études ou, dans ce cadre, une formation professionnelle, et garantit disposer d'une assurance maladie ainsi que de ressources suffisantes pour lui et pour les membres de sa famille tels que visés au 5º afin de ne pas devenir une charge pour le système d'assistance sociale ;
4º S'il est un descendant direct âgé de moins de vingt et un ans ou à charge, ascendant direct à charge, conjoint, ascendant ou descendant direct à charge du conjoint, accompagnant ou rejoignant un ressortissant qui satisfait aux conditions énoncées aux 1º ou 2º ;
5º S'il est le conjoint ou un enfant à charge accompagnant ou rejoignant un ressortissant qui satisfait aux conditions énoncées au 3º.

 

 

I don't know if it tells us any more as there's still no mention of health cover for people who have been here 5 years 

[cooperlola]

Cheyl, thanks for passing this on.  I think Caroline Lucas's explanation (my post, above yours,) is pretty clear and helps rather better than the above.  Under EU law, it seems evident that we have equality with French nationals in a similar position.  However, what remains to be seen, is how the French early retired will be treated, vis a vis their healthcare.  If M. Sarkozy choses to punish them by making them take out private insurance (which is still perfectly possible over the coming months) then we would be no further forward.  Except that the French people would get behind any protest about such a change too!

[Ron Avery]

Just as a matter of interest, what does "5 years uninterrupted residency" mean?

How is it proved? The current determination is a tax return, but there are those who have said that they were told not to pay tax in the first year, there are a quite a few who pay tax in the UK who have chosen (as if they had a choice) not to become tax resident, so how do these people stand?  Perhaps we will get letters sometime soon when we will all know where we stand.  I still think this is the most cockamaymee (sp?) piece of legislation I have come across, it will not achieve much and if it drives legitimate Brits back to the UK then every € they would have spent will be lost to the French economy. I really do wonder if I want to continue to live in a country that makes up laws on the hoof and changes the rules at the drop of a hat.

[Bugsy]

[quote user="Ron Avery"]

I really do wonder if I want to continue to live in a country that makes up laws on the hoof and changes the rules at the drop of a hat.

[/quote]

Doesn't that happen in the UK then Ron ?

 

[BJSLIV]

It's not really a case of France changing the rules on a whim. They never wanted to abolish the income rules for new arrivals but were forced to atop them because that was how the EU rules stood at the time that free movement was introduced. The EU rules were changed a couple of years ago, so France are, two years on, implementing the EU rules that allow them , in effect, to reintroduce the income qualifications for residence.

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Ron Avery"]

Just as a matter of interest, what does "5 years uninterrupted residency" mean?

How is it proved? 

[/quote]"La continuité du séjour sur les cinq ans peut être prouvée par tout moyen."

from : VOS DROITS ET DÉMARCHES : Etrangers en France

From the French government website.

Although personally, Ron, I kind of hope that they will demand to see tax returns![6]

[Ron Avery]

[quote user="Bugbear"][quote user="Ron Avery"]

I really do wonder if I want to continue to live in a country that makes up laws on the hoof and changes the rules at the drop of a hat.

[/quote]

Doesn't that happen in the UK then Ron ?

[/quote]

Oh please, let's worry about France and keep this discussion on track.

[Ron Avery]

What I meant Coops, was supposing someone had had to go back to the UK for an extended period, say over 3 months, family illness for example, would that count as not being continuous residence, or does the date on the tax return as at 1 janvier come into  play?

[BJSLIV]

Regarding five years continuous residence......

Continuité du séjour 

La continuité du séjour sur les cinq ans peut être prouvée par tout moyen. 

Ne sont pas prises en compte les absences temporaires ne dépassant pas six mois par an, les absences pour l'accomplissement des obligations militaires ou une absence de douze mois consécutifs maximum pour une raison importante telle qu'une maladie grave, des études ou un détachement professionnel à l'étranger par exemple. 

[Cat]

I have moved some posts from this thread (Breaking news on expat health cover) into the discussion thread.  They can now be found here http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/40/1042807/ShowPost.aspx

[makfai]

[quote user="Ron Avery"]What I meant Coops, was supposing someone had had to go back to the UK for an extended period, say over 3 months, family illness for example, would that count as not being continuous residence, or does the date on the tax return as at 1 janvier come into  play?[/quote]

 

Article 16 EU Directive 2004/38EC

3. Continuity of residence shall not be affected by temporary absences not exceeding a total of six months a year, or by absences of a longer duration for compulsory military service, or by one absence of a maximum of 12 consecutive months for important reasons such as pregnancy and childbirth, serious illness, study or vocational training, or a posting in another Member State or a third country.

4. Once acquired, the right of permanent residence shall be lost only through absence from the host Member State for a period exceeding two consecutive years.

[Cat]

It's interesting to find that the "circulaire" that was supposed to be sent out to CPAM offices, as per the announcement on the French social security site...

Des instructions vont être rapidement diffusées aux caisses d'assurance maladie françaises pour leur rappeler ces dispositions et leur préciser qu'elles s'appliquent à toutes les personnes concernées...

...has still not (apparently) been sent.

The ameli site has a search facility for these circulaires (which are available for public view due to the liberty of access to administrative documents rules) which give guidance on how to interpret new laws.  But, as yet, nothing, nada, zilch.

http://www.ameli.fr/l-assurance-maladie/textes-reglementaires/circulaires.php

Gives a new meaning to the word rapidly [8-)]

 

 

[cooperlola]

[:D]

Useful link, Cat.  I'll add it to the list.

[Lehaut]

Have read most of the posts on this Health Care Issue and we have also been challenging the system.  Not much luck with our Embassy and we have visited our local CPAM twice now.  Found and read the Directive 2004/38 and have spoken to CLEISS who agree that after our 11 legal and contributing years in France, we should have the same rights as a French person, but no, they would not take this up with the CPAM. Nothing to do with them, even though their number is on the Point d'Information!  They were happy, however, to have themselves cited in a "contestation".

However, the CPAM Office have told us that we cannot contest this ruling until we have a letter from the CPAM HQ telling us that we will be refused cover after 31 March 2008.  Even though they were looking at the directive and received a memo on 2 Oct with the info on it!  They will also refuse to accept any attempt from us to use the Commission de recours amiable (CRA) until after the refusal letter is issued.  By this stage, we had the office manager and 2 other members of staff involved.  The manager rang St Lô (Manche) and was told that the letters would be sent out to their respective clients Nov/Dec 07.  Then we can contest the ruling.  Acknowledging that all this takes time, should the matter not be resoved until after 31 March, we will still have to take out private cover until we get our rights back!  If we are successful will they then repay our insurance cost???

The Embassy emailed us on 9 Oct "There has been no change in the information given to us by the French Ministry of Health, therefore I confirm that the information on our website still stands."  As this site still quotes the 5 year rule, the only clear way forward that we can see is for the French Health Ministry to issue an updated memo to the CPAM staff with the correct information on it.  We are currenly pursuing the CMU over this, but as just individuals don't hold out much hope.

All the officials we have dealt with so far are amazed we are worried about something that won't happen till next year!

 

 

[cooperlola]

Lehaut, please join our lobby group, as you are right it is tough for an individual to persue these major issues alone.  Please e-mail me if you are interested.  At the very least we'd be glad to see the correspondence, as we need as much ammunition as possible and are genuinely lookiing for individual cases which we can cite and refer to.  We (the British ex-pat and immigrant community), need you!  Thanks.[:)]

[Boiling a frog]

I am also an early retired,have been here in France since March 2002 as shown on my titre de sejour am an inactive and pay into CMU for health care.Have filed tax returns etc etc

Today phoned the english speaking helpline re 5 year residency status and subscription to CMU.Their reply was that they know nothing about this  and that as far as they are concerned everyone on CMU at present will have to take out private medical insurance in March 2008 .

I think we should really be pressing the UK Government for clarification of the British Embassy and the Department of Works and Pensions statements on their websites

I have already contacted Mary Honeyball MEP plus my own Scottish MEP

 

 

 

 

[Pommier]

On another forum I've seen a link to this petition to the UK government

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/healthinFrance/

[martin]

Having read and kept up to date with all this, I am absolutely dumfounded that such an important and even devastating issue as this can be so uncertain as to where the goal posts are, particularly in relation to the "five year rule".  Surely someone somewhere in the governments of France and UK can spell out exactly what the new rules are to be. 

There must be some minister or official who by now can say what is to be implemented.  I cannot believe that we are shrouded in such ambiguity, misinformation and half truths.

Have I missed something? 

I have lived here as an "inactif" with my family for over five years with a very good pension and no need to work.  If the new rules are to apply to me, I have a number of openings to obtain minimum part-time work, but I don't want to, nor do I want to take a post which could be offered to someone more needy of employment, but needs must as I won't run to private health insurance. 

So, in short all it will mean to me is that I will have to work unnecessarily for 15 hours a week, earn more money than I need and deprive a French unemployed person from work.

Brilliant!

[Lehaut]

Martin,

We are exactly in the same position as you, although we have been here for 11 years.  We bought our house 16 years ago and were lucky enough to work with well place French officials who could help us establish a correct legal "inactive" position in France.  Having also been on the receiving end of major goal post shifts within the UK political/budget arena, the first lesson I learnt is that the words "they cannot do that"  do not exist.  "They" can do what they want and you just have to find a way round it.  This last part the French are past masters at!

I have signed on with ASSEDIC and have explained the same thing about taking a job away from a French person (unemployement in our area is about 11%).  I shall be re-iterating this to the ANPE on Monday morning as I go for my first apppointment.  Have also made the same point to the CPAM people.  They all agree, but as they are at the bottom of the pile, can do nothing about it.  Even the supervisors are at a loss.  Have had some correspondence with the CMU HQ staff but at the moment, our (and your) position appears to be so far outside anything they have experienced, they don't have (at the moment) the regulations to deal with us under 2004/38, amended or influenced by Article L122-1 (inséré par Loi nº 2006-911 du 24 juillet 2006 art. 23 II Journal Officiel du 25 juillet rectificatif JOrF 16 septembre 2006)

I also think there is a problem with vocabulary.  We call ourselves "retired" but the French don't seem to recognise this term when applied to someone under the official retirement age.  One official in the CMU when asked what "droits" a French person in our position has re healthcare said that peole like that don't exisit in France!  You only have to visit the AMELI site and trawl through the numerous special rights departments that deal with the pensions of every one from miners to authors to realise what a briar patch the whole thing is.

If the British Embassy have the information they claim to have (see my previous post), then they should be able to issue the agreement made with the French Ministry.  We are still pushing them for a reply.

Illegitimi non carborundum!

[Lehaut]

Cooperlola

Have sent you an Email.

Lehaut

[WJT]

Just a thought and please forgive me if this has already been mentioned. As I said on another thread it doesn't apply to me personally, but has anyone considered getting in touch with some Spanish sites about this? From what I understand the UK government has refused payments for early retirees if they do not reside in the UK. Spain has more ex-pats living there than in France. If the two groups were to pool resources and perhaps petition together, it may make a stronger case with the government.

I wonder if this has affected ex-pats in other countries such as Italy or Germany for example. I find it hard to believe that France and Spain are the only two countries that decided not to pick up the UK bill. Having said that, I guess the numbers must be much greater.

[Russethouse]

Firstly the idea surely is that the arrangements are reciprocal, therefore any French or Spanish person resident in the Uk will get the same treatment as someone born in the Uk who has been resident all of their life. ie: free at the point of delivery.

It probably isn't a coincidence that the countries that are most attractive to retiring Brits are the first to complain and seek to adjust the situation. That said once we start adjusting the present arrangement,what will the ramifications be for the nationals of other countries in the UK ?

I think I am right in saying that the UK view is that individuals have no earmarked fund with their name on, it is current contributions that pay expenses.

Fair or not, I think the official view here may well be that this is a temporary problem which will go away after 5 years, ( my guess is that those who move now knowing the possible problems will get short shrift) given that, I cannot see that UK Government will want to change the whole system. Actually the more I think about it the bigger can of worms I see.

I still think these changes are very unfair for those people who moved to France in good faith under the old regulations, I'm just not very sure if pressuring the UK will ultimately be worthwhile. 

[WJT]

I know very little about this, so sounds fair enough to me. I agree that it would probably be very difficult to change UK policy. Fingers crossed that the French government will agree to continue to cover UK early retirees without reimbursement from the UK government. If not, I do hope another solution will present itself soon because I can imagine how devastating this decision will be for many. In fact, it will certainly affect our decision of when to retire to France and unfortunately as it stands now it won't be an early one. But that is nothing compared to those that have already made the decision. [:(]