Retiring in 5 years, From US to France, some questions

[mcdwg]

I will be retiring from the US Military in five years.  My wife and I have been thinking about moving to France, my wife visited her best friend in Limoges and she absolutely loved it.  We both love traveling and have been doing for the past few years because of the military.  We think France would be a good place to start a new life since my wife already has a friend there and we like the slower pace of life compared to the US, at least that is our impression and from what my wife experienced while visiting.  We will be going to France in 2012 to get a feel of the place, looking forward to it.

I have a few questions, maybe someone can give me some guidance.

- I will probably get a retiring pension of about $2000 more or less per month, how much is it needed to live in France in a monthly basis for a couple with one child, one car, decent accommodations.

- What kind of jobs are good to get in France, I am about to get my business degree, with emphasis on accounting and my wife has a human relations degree, do we have to get retrained there, how's the job market looking?

- My wife told me that Limoges is a very small city south of Paris, we are thinking on moving there to be close to her friend, is that a good idea for newcomers or a city like Paris would be better?

Thank you in advance for any help

[Chrissie]

Hello Mcdwg, and welcome to the Forum!

There are always people asking the general questions you have asked, so you should browse around the site and read as much as you can.

Main points I would make:

You do not state your age, but the older you are, the harder it would be to get work here.

Do you speak good French?  If you don't, you will find it hard to get anything other than really basic jobs.  And you could find settling in to life here very isolating.  Try renting here for a year and see how you fit in to the lifestyle, and how much things cost. (And what the weather patterns are like in your chosen area - may sound flippant, but weather is extremely variable here!)

As a non-EU family, you need to look extremely carefully at the tax and social contributions side of your finances here, and the cost of your medical care.  There is a site called something like "Americans in Toulouse" which may help you - someone here will have the site link, I am sure.  (There are a lot of Americans in Toulouse because of the Aerospace business etc.)  You will also be at the mercy of a fluctuating exchange rate on your US income.

Are you likely to want to return to the States to visit family etc?  You would be further from home than most of us, and popping back to see elderly or ill relatives might not be an option.

Oh dear, this all sounds rather negative, and you may have fully considered all these things in advance.  France is a lovely country and many of us foreigners are very happy here!  I hope you find the answers to your questions.

Good luck

Chrissie (81)

[cooperlola]

Hi Mcdwg and welcome to the forum.

I second all the warnings which Chrissie has outlined.  The employment situation in France is pretty dire, and is made far worse for incomers by the reluctance of French firms to employ anyone but a native speaker for all but the grottiest of jobs.  Thus, if you seriously need work to sustain a good lifestyle, then it would be far better to sort this before you come over, rather than turning up on spec.  For a start, you do need a residents' permit (unless you or your wife is an EU citizen).   I would also guess from the figures I have seen, that around a third of your budget would be taken up in health insurance, so it may well be worth your getting some figures from your US insurer as part of your research as often your existing provider will give you a better deal (to say nothing of the fact that full insurance is not common here and the market is thus not competitive.)  If you have a job, you will get into the national system, but you still have to pay quite a chunk of your salary for the privilege.

France is great for those on a steady income who aren't seeking work and who either make friends easily and speak the lingo, or who love peace and quiet and their own company.  For others (and there are plenty on this forum - past and present - who have gone back to their native countries because it did not suit them) it can be a poison chalice.

The bureaucracy can be a nightmare - especially when you consider that you have to sort out some many things at once (when you think about it, you normally do things like registering for healthcare, buying and regisering a car, learning about the tax system etc etc, at different times in your life - they all come along in a heap when you move) and deal with functionaries who don't speak your language (and why should they?) - but it can be overcome.  Just be aware of all the hoops you'll have to jump through and make sure you know how before you commit yourself to a move.

[Lori]

I don't believe you mentioned the age of the child.  Will he/she need to go to school?  This is very important when gathering your data.

Also, don't forget the VISA process.  It can be a long one and you will be asked to go through nearly the same thing at your local town hall once you arrive in France.

Healthcare, taxes and social charges are major big issues.  You will want to gather as much data as possible and please be careful as many books that have been written on these subjects are out of date and should not be relied on as fact.  Contacting a good Accountant might help you too.  We know an American one working in Paris if you'd like his name (just PM me).  He is an expert on all things accounting - USA and France related.  He works with clients all over France and the world.

Good  luck.

[Sprogster]

Unless you and your wife are EU citizens you will require a visa to spend more than ninety days in France/EU, even as a tourist. (Exactly the same applies to EU citizens who want to spend more than ninety days in the USA).

You can apply for an annual long stay visa, but this prohibits employment and is mainly aimed these days at wealthy non EU citizen retirees.

If you are looking to work in France, you have two options, in that you either obtain a visa through your US employer, as an inter company transferee, to their French operations. The alternative is that you have to prove you have specialised job skills that no other EU citizen can provide, and be sponsored by a French employer who has to demonstrate that they had tried to recruit an EU citizen first. In all reality the latter visa option is extremely difficult for a non EU Citizen to obtain.

You will be aware that within the USA there currently is in political circles a very strong anti immigration stance, which has made it all but impossible for EU citizens to move permanently to the USA, other than through marriage, close dependent family ties, or exceptional skills. As a result US citizens are finding it more difficult to move to Europe, as these visa restrictions tend to work on a reciprocol basis between countries.

[Lori]

Very well said Sprogster.  I forgot to mention the first five year issue.  For us, we were not allowed to take work the first five years of living here and we had to sign attestations each year when we renewed our Carte de Sejour.  Very important issues for any Non-EU citizen wanting to work upon arrival.

[Sprogster]

Lori, the long stay visa rules have been tightened and there are now additional requirements, which did not apply when you came to France.

Firstly, the visa now has to be applied for outside France in your home country, from the French Embassy or Consulate and be granted before arrival.

Secondly, there is also now a medical requirement as part of the application process and evidence has to be presented as to your independent financial means, and you having comprehensive private medical insurance as extensive as the French State health care. This is proving problematical, as such cover is difficult to obtain, especially if you have any form of pre-existing health condition.

As I mentioned previously, unless you are a fairly wealthy retiree, these days this visa can be difficult to obtain.

[Lori]

I am very familiar with the new laws.  I just completed a Régroupement Familial VISA process.  It took 2 years.  I was told to expect 1 year, but it took 2.

I had to request my own Long Stay Visa from the U.S. way back 11 years ago too.

Yes, the latest VISA process required all kinds of medical appts., language tests, Cultural lessons, etc.  These are all now required for most Non-EU entries.  Not for the faint of heart.

[Lori]

I would also add to something that was touched on by another poster here, do not forget to consider currency fluctuations.  We live in France on U.S. dollar income.  There was a time period of about 2 years when the U.S. Dollar to the Euro was at dreadful rates (and it isn't great now either).  For a time (and a fairly long one), one euro cost us approx. 1.60 U.S. dollars.  This eats into a HUGE part of your dollar income and if you are already on a limited income, it will be painful beyond words. 

No one knows what will happen with currency rates, but I promise you, living on U.S. dollars in the Euro zone will be risky.

[Sprogster]

Lori,

There is also another problem on the horizon for US citizens living abroad and that is the potential unintended consequences of the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA) Provisions of the US Hire Act, that come into effect the end of next year.

So onerous are the proposed US registration and reporting obligations on any foreign bank or investment firm, located anywhere in the world, that may have any US citizens as clients, even if they are living outside the USA, that there is already evidence of banks in Europe taking the commercial view that they don't have sufficient US clients to make meeting the requirements cost effective, and therefore are considering the alternative of precluding US citizens and Green card holders from utilising their services.

If you are still a US citizen, it is a subject worth researching and lobbying your Congressman on, as it has the potential to be a nightmare for Americans living abroad, if they end up being treated as pariahs by banks and financial firms outside the US!

[mcdwg]

Wow thank you so much for giving me a reality check, it certainly is not just about packing and moving.  By the way I am 35 years old, my wife 32 and my child is just a newborn now.  I retire from the military in five years and we are looking to move overseas, France is my wife's choice since she has visited once before and her best friend lives there, she was born in Los Angeles and has a middle eastern background from Egypt so it would close to visit family there, I have a Hispanic background so I was looking into Latin America, so we will see what happens in the next five years.  It seems like there is a lot of red tape for Americans trying to settle down in Europe.

Again thank you very much for all your replies, I will sure relay all this info to my wife.

 

[Mikep]

Once you have your business degree, a much easier approach would be to seek employment with a US-based multilateral, initially in the US but with prospects of working internationally in (say) their European headquarters. That way, they look after all the complications for you, and your likely earnings will be much higher - and possibly currency protected. You should get healthcare and moving costs in the package. You'll have less choice of location, and they might want to move you after a couple of years, but you can always change employer at that time.

For example, GE have a large operation near Paris (Medical Systems) with lots of movement between the US and Europe (and Japan, incidentally). Some French language would be very helpful, but is not absolutely essential. I feel that your willingness to travel and work in Europe would be a definite asset to your recruitment chances.

Good luck!

[Lori]

There's always something when it comes to the IRS.  From what I understand of the Act you are referring to, we may only be minimally affected (file the form saying we don't have $50,000 of assests abroad ..)

"The

FBAR is generally required to be filed by a U.S. person with a

financial interest, signature authority or other authority over foreign

financial accounts if at any point during the calendar year the

aggregate value of all such foreign accounts equaled or exceeded

$10,000, even if for one day. The section 6038D disclosure is required

to report “specified foreign financial assets” when the aggregate value

exceeds $50,000.

 

Section

6038D(b) defines a “specified foreign financial asset” to include

ownership of (1) any financial account maintained by a foreign

financial institution, (2) any stock or security issued by a non-U.S.

person, (3) any financial interest or contract held for investment that

has a non-U.S. issuer or counterparty, and (4) any interest in a

foreign entity. Section 6038D(b) defines a foreign entity by reference

to section 1473(5): any entity that is not a U.S. person. Consequently,

taxpayers who purchase foreign real estate through an entity will have

a filing obligation."

Well, I guess I could say I wish we did have this problem (such nice assets), but we don't.  As it is, our U.S. tax return is about 65 pages !!!  I guess a form or two more is just down right expected !!   Un-%$^&*() ing believable to me.  Our French return is about 8 pages.... and we already seem to report every tiny penny held in any remote location to each set of authorities.  Don't get me started...

[Anton Redman II]

Not sure what kind of city life you are after but I would be happy to live full time in Bordeaux or Lyon. I found Limoges comparatively dull.

[Sprogster]

Lori, the FBAR and FATCA requirements are different pieces of legislation, as the FBAR reporting obligations are with the US taxpayer, and the FATCA registration and regulatory requirements impose on any financial institution providing services to a US citizen, wherever in the world they are located, even if they have just one US client!

Where this might impact on individuals such as yourself, is if the bank you deal with in France as a result of the FATCA requirements decide to discontinue services to Americans. As LloydsTSB Bank has done in the UK.

[Lori]

Sprogster:  Well, I guess I'll deal with that if it happens.  Perhaps banks will just pass on the fees for processing these requirements to the customers in question - sounds like something a bank might do. 

To be honest, I have so many other things to worry about.   For people considering a move to France, I can see how this might be a concern to add to their list.

[PaulT]

[quote user="Sprogster"]....the FATCA registration and regulatory requirements impose on any financial institution providing services to a US citizen, wherever in the world they are located, even if they have just one US client! [/quote]

How can the US impose requirements on a company in another sovereign country? Surely, they are covered only by the requirements of that sovereign country or via EU regulations and can tell any other country to get lost.

Paul

[Mr Coeur de Lion]

Simple, they do what they did when the got Bin Laden. They just wade in without permission. ;)

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Mr Coeur de Lion"]Simple, they do what they did when the got Bin Laden. They just wade in without permission. ;)[/quote][:D]

[andyh4]

Ain't that the truth - and since the financial world is essentially a glabal transnational system, no financial institution is going to tell the US to put its regulations where the sun does not shine and expect there will be no financial repercussions.

[PaulT]

[quote user="andyh4"]Ain't that the truth - and since the financial world is essentially a glabal transnational system, no financial institution is going to tell the US to put its regulations where the sun does not shine and expect there will be no financial repercussions.[/quote]

So was not that what Bin Laden was trying to do - impose his will on the World and carrying out acts in various countries. So the US and Bin Laden are one and the same.

[Rabbie]

[quote user="PaulT"]

 So the US and Bin Laden are one and the same.

[/quote]In certain aspects Yes. Neither seems to think that International Law applies to them when it is not convenient.

[audio]

MCDWG wrote

 ‘It seems like there is a lot of red tape for Americans trying to settle down in Europe.’

 

Maybe there is but there is a helluva lot more red tape and charges for Europeans wanting a green card for the USA and for the easiest case, a direct close family member of a USC, the cost is well over $1000!!! How much did you have to pay?[8-|]

[Nadele]

I agree, americans very often don't know of OUR troubles!