Astra 2E/2F Technical Thread

[Martin963]

re renewing the satellites etc.

Yes,   the main limiting factor is actually the on board fuel for keeping the craft in the right place via its little thruster rockets.   This is normally the first thing to run low (and they have to keep a reserve even after the sat is decommissioned to keep it out of the way of other sats).   The next thing that goes is that the amount of energy coming out of the solar panels gradually diminishes with age and sometimes an aging sat will only have half its transponders working as the panels can't bear the full load.

As to the tightening of the beams - well no one knows for certain,  but I'm sceptical that much pressure has come from the BBC et al to persuade Astra to make it harder to receive British progs abroad.   When the BBC originally shed its encryption (provided by Sky) in 2003 many people said the sky would fall on Greg Dyyke's head as far as copyright was concerned,  but it didn't;   and I don't think much has changed since then.   The restricted beam hitherto has been sufficiently restricted to satisfy those oh-so-precious rights people.

No - there's another explanation.   From a technical point of view it's advantageous if you can tighten up the beam,  because if you can do that you can then re-use the same frequencies in another part of the world - but still using the same satellite,  or one in the same orbital slot.   So for example you can beam one set of progs to Britain,  and - using the same frequencies - beam another set to north Africa (for example).   With wide beams this isn't possible because when two frequencies arrive at the same receive point they wreck each other,  but if you can tighten the beams that problem can be avoided.   And in the overlap area (in this case Spain) people can't get EITHER sets of programmes because they mutually interfere.   But that doesn't matter if the programme providers are only concerned with serving their own specific areas.

This technique is increasingly used to save on frequencies and sat capacity.   For example here in W Devon I can get Irish TV on a FTA transmission,   but the beam they use is VERY tight and by the time you get to Exeter it's not possible to receive it - however big a dish you use.   Two reasons,   partly because Exeter is further away from the beam centre than I am,  but also (and more importantly) because another beam - using the same frequencies but aimed further east - starts to cause significant interference to the Irish beam.    That suits Irish TV and it suits the operator of the satellite who can keep using the same frequencies over and over again.

As I say,  I'm not privy to negotiations between Astra and British broadcasters but I think the tightening of the beam is more to do with technical "because we can and it might be useful" rather than "the rights people are getting upset,  please tighten the beam".

What do you think Jako?

[Jako]

@Quillian: Astra2G will probably take on the Astra2A transponders and provide extra capacity. We do not yet know when and where the Eutelsat transponders move to. Assuming spotbeam transponders are cheaper to lease than pan-european transponders , anything is possible especially when profit margins drop. The thee satellites combined are able to provide any solution a UK provider might need for the next 15 years.

[Daft Doctor]

Thanks Jako, I'll get the bigger dish installed anyway, the marginal cost will be peanuts.

[Martin963]

[quote user="Jako"][quote user="Daft Doctor"]Hi, can either Martin or Jako help me with my question earlier in the thread.  If I have decent signal strength and quality on all channels with a 60cm dish, would an 80cm dish make the signal significantly more stable in bad weather or adverse atmospheric conditions?  Instinct says yes it would, but my instinct isn't always right!  Many thanks  [:)][/quote]

Yes, but what we do not yet know is whether 80 cm will be enough because reception of Astra2E outside the spotbeam is not stable over time.

Having a decent signal now is no guarantee the signal will be decent in three months from today under the same conditions.

[/quote]

One of the reasons I delayed in replying to you is precisely because we don't know for certain how this will develop.  

Other things being equal yes a bigger dish will resist rain fade and other signal degradations better than a small dish.    For example the French transmitter authority use 1.5 m dishes at the terrestrial transmitters to pick up the programme feed where in fact a 50 cm dish would do the job 99.5% of the time.   But that 0.5% downtime is critical if hundreds of thousands of viewers of a UHF transmitter are going to lose their programme when it snows or rains hard.   The big dish gives pretty good security that the feed is going to be usable 99.9% of the time - or even higher.

TBH I think it's fairly safe to recommend an 80 cm dish where you are if a 60 cm is doing the business most of the time.   If you were in Spain or the extreme south of France I'd agree that there's a risk that what works now might not  work in a few weeks/months,  but I think it's unlikely that Astra can actually do THAT much tweaking of the signal where you are without compromising reception in the intended areas.   I could be wrong of course but I don't subscribe to the idea that Astra have THAT much control over the signal once the reflectors have been designed.   And if they do start pushing the signal around (for example by slightly altering the attitude of the satellite) they merely give a bigger signal to some other part of Europe as the cost of reducing it elsewhere - so what do they achieve?   Take the signal from Spain and you probably improve it in Finland!

But please don't waste your cash JUST on my say so - I can only give the advice based on my best guess (and some experience!);  but an 80 cm dish is certainly worth the relatively small investment - in my view.

[Jako]

@Martin963: I think both reasons are valid.

According to rumours the BBC have been very keen on tightening the spotbeam because of the rights issue and the birds also carry transponders for west Africa and the Middle east that make reusing the same frequencies possible.

[Martin963]

I just don't buy the rumour about BBC pressure.   (I don't - I hasten to add - mean that I don't believe you Jako,  just the rumour!).

The BBC rent a max of 8 transponders from SES.  I can only actually see six working but the BBC call them transponders 1 to 8 so maybe I'm missing some.

Astra 2E has 60 Ku band tranponders - so the BBC is renting less than 15% of the capacity on that ONE satellite - there are more spot beams on 2F.   Yes I'm sure that SES will try and accommodate reasonable requests but to be honest the BBC is a small player in all this and I doubt they greatly influence SES's thinking,  at least in comparison to the frequency re-use incentive. 

We had all this conspiracy stuff a while back with 2D - people were saying that SES would "tip 2D up a bit" to make reception harder in Spain - it was all absolute rubbish and was quashed by the people who know much more about this than I do.

We will probably never know the truth and it's academic anyway (albeit interesting!) but my money is that the BBC has a lot less influence than some people think.

[dave21478]

I am in the Tarn, between Albi and Castres - BBC channels have gone. Thats with an old Panasonic box and a cheap BricoDepot 80cm dish.

There is a tree in front of the dish whos upper branches are beginning to encroach on its line of sight which is due to be chopped down during the week, so perhaps that will help. otherwise, I will wait and see regarding dish sizes. My dish is up on the chimney breast though and I fear a larger dish would catch the wind too much.

[HoneySuckleDreams]

[quote user="dave21478"] My dish is up on the chimney breast though and I fear a larger dish would catch the wind too much.[/quote]

That's a good point.

The kids have got back from Lycee and said that everything has gone now. Daaaaaaaad can you fix it ? Not from here in Luxembourg I can't

So I think I will have to order a 130cm dish and see if that does the trick. I think I can stick it on the chimney in the same place as the current one as it's under the eaves a bit and out of the wind, but the cables are not long enough for the bigger focal arm so I will have to join them.

 No1 son is going to be really grumpy when he gets back home this weekend and will have to watch the 6N on French TV. (Attention! Attention! is about the only commentary you get). Beggars can't be choosers though.

A question: If I have to put the dish in the garden. it will be around 30m away from the SlyBox/Humax. Is there an optimum sort of cable I will need to cover the loss in signal over that distance ?

[Jako]

It is not the BBC that has the influence, it is 'Hollywood' . Why do you think the published Astra1N 'spotbeam' is so far off the truth? European broadcasters pay 'Hollywood' for exclusive rights and yet the same programs could still be watched by almost all 500 million Europeans on the BBC.

[Quillan]

[quote user="Jako"]It is not the BBC that has the influence, it is 'Hollywood' . Why do you think the published Astra1N 'spotbeam' is so far off the truth? European broadcasters pay 'Hollywood' for exclusive rights and yet the same programs could still be watched by almost all 500 million Europeans on the BBC.

[/quote]

Strange thing is that if you watch anything American that has been made in the last few years on French Satellite TV (in my case Orange) you can watch it in the original English language version (CSI, NCIS, Law and Order [latest ones]) etc) which to my mind in some cases makes it all laughable. I did then wonder if France pays more for the programs/films to be able to do this?

[andyh4]

And the sport mafia Jako - they who want to sell the rights of a game, a match or a round 20 times over in Europe with exclusivity.

[Quillan]

Interestingly, should anyone have the time too look, there is something in the BBC Royal Charter (under which the BBC operates) about transmitting outside the UK borders I seem to remember. http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctrust/governance/regulatory_framework/charter_agreement.html

 

[Gardian]

[quote user="Gardian"]

My question is this.  I can understand that the 'old' satellite needed to be replaced - presumably its a bit like your 10yo car, something has to be done sooner rather than later. What I don't understand is why the 'footprint' needed to be smaller than it was. Surely it can't have been just in order to maximise reception quality in the UK? 

[/quote]

Sorry, but I still don't feel that anyone has suggested an answer to my question.

Q's answer about NE Anglia and the Shetlands was, I'm sure honestly quoted, but really ................... its rowlocks!!

So ............. what's the answer?   (Aggressively put I know, and not intended as criticism of anybody on here - I just would like to understand the bloody reason.)    

[Martin963]

I'll try and answer outstanding points tomorrow - Dave and others.  Sorry it hasn't been tonight.

@gardian - Jako and I do agree on the frequency re-use bit.   That's one reason why the footprint has been tightened.   Please re-read the bit about frequency re-use in different geographical zones.   That re-use relies on tighter beams.

re the rights stuff Jako - yes,  but my point was that in the end the BBC in their turn have quite a lot of clout over rights - after all if Hollywood play hardball the BBC simply won't buy their stuff,  and if there was really an issue with beams SES might simply turn round to the BBC and say "OK,  if it's a problem,  go back to encryption".

The sky didn't fall in in 2003,  and I stick with my thought that the BBC is a small player as far as SES are concerned.

Now if the BBC were on Astra 1 or Hotbird (to which lots of vernacular European dishes point) then it might be very different.

cf TF1 being un-encrypted on a sat to which relatively few dishes point (9 deg E).

As it is depriving the Iberian peninsular of FTA BBC makes only a tiny dent in the overall "wrong population" coverage of Astra 2.   If you take Paris/Brussels/Holland/W Germany and add up all the potential viewers there it comes to a very high figure,  against which depriving a few hundred thousand in Spain and Portugal begins to look petty.

Unless anyone is privy to an actual conversation between the BBC and SES I remain sceptical that it played a big part;  although I grant you that tightened beams do indeed "suit" the BBC's case when it comes to rights.

[PaulT]

Yes, I echo the sentiments of a big thank you to Martin and Jako for their technical input to this subject.

Could there be a conflict amongst the commercial providers......for example, ITV can carry an advert for, Fred Bloggs cornflakes ehich are available across europe and at present this can be viewed in various countries of europe. Would commercial operations in those countries be upset?

[Quillan]

Sorry Gardian but all I could quote from was the BBC website.

If anyone had a say to get the spot beam I would have thought it more likely to be Sky. They pay a lot for sporting rights and buy in most of their programming from the US where Murdoc/BSB has a lot of ties to American studios.

When you think of Spain where virtually every bar on the Costas has Sky Sports for example not to mention the numerous companies re-broadcasting and on top of that the individuals who have their own dishes there are a few million I would think watching UK TV there mainly through Sky. Just with sport and particular football there is millions involved concerning broadcasting right across different countries.

But hey if people are watching through Sky they will be paying if they use their own dishes even if in breach of their Sky contract so it is a revenue income for Sky. On the other hand the re-broadcasters get their programs quite cheap in their terms compared to how much they sell on for and that coupled with the boxes they rent or sell is big money for them yet little money for Sky.

I think it could mainly be Sky who put the pressure on SES for the UK beam although Sky had pressure put on them from their content providers. I think the BBC and the other UK commercial channels are simply jumping on the bandwagon possibly working with Sky.

I also think there is a certain amount of truth in the transponder theory as well. Different channel providers are asking for more channels. I read that the BBC want to have BBC1 +1 I seem to remember that it will be launched this year. I also noticed that Channel 5 + 1 has moved and its slot taken up with Channel 5 -24 and I suspect others may want to do the same. Then you have the massive amount of shopping, music, religious, news, gambling and soft porn channels all requiring channels and I would suspect SES would like to increase their revenue stream by allowing more.

On the other hand we all may be wrong, it might be something quite different although there will be one certainty in that it revolves around money in somebodies pocket somewhere.

[Martin963]

[quote user="dave21478"]I am in the Tarn, between Albi and Castres - BBC channels have gone. Thats with an old Panasonic box and a cheap BricoDepot 80cm dish.

There is a tree in front of the dish whos upper branches are beginning to encroach on its line of sight which is due to be chopped down during the week, so perhaps that will help. otherwise, I will wait and see regarding dish sizes. My dish is up on the chimney breast though and I fear a larger dish would catch the wind too much.[/quote]

See what happens when the tree is gone.   I attended the brother of some French neighbours' installation in September and for a few minutes couldn't understand why a 60 cm wasn't pulling in 19 deg E for Canalsat.   Only when I was about to start loosening bolts did I notice the oh-so-innocent cherry tree which had just grown tall enough to block the signal.   Of course my suggestion that "l'arbre est en cause" was met with incredulity,  but in the end we moved the dish and all was well.

For safety I reckon you would be better with a 1 m dish Dave but let's see if a few more people report in.

Incidentally,  a VERY long standing sat bod has started this up;   something similar was done for 2F and proved very very useful.

http://goo.gl/maps/Ha4xf

Tell us what happens when the tree is gone - we always enjoy your anecdotes!

[Martin963]

[quote user="HoneySuckleDreams"]

[quote user="dave21478"] My dish is up on the chimney breast though and I fear a larger dish would catch the wind too much.[/quote]

That's a good point.

So I think I will have to order a 130cm dish and see if that does the trick. I think I can stick it on the chimney in the same place [/quote]

If you haven't handled a 1.3 m dish you will probably be disgruntled to find how awkward they are!   I don't have anything bigger than a 1 m but that's bad enough,   and even on a ground mount the Devon winds have given it (and me) grief.   If you do need to go to 1.3 m I would be very careful about putting it on a chimney - you undoubtedly know what you're doing by the sounds of it but if a ground position is an easy alternative I'd consider it carefully.

Doesn't look as though the other low freq band transponders have moved from 1N yet - presumably those who have lost the BBC are still getting most ITV and ch 4 SD stuff....?

[Martin963]

[quote user="PaulT"]Yes, I echo the sentiments of a big thank you to Martin and Jako for their technical input to this subject.

Could there be a conflict amongst the commercial providers......for example, ITV can carry an advert for, Fred Bloggs cornflakes ehich are available across europe and at present this can be viewed in various countries of europe. Would commercial operations in those countries be upset?[/quote]

Thanks - it's appreciated.   I have to pinch myself that I've been trying to help people out here for fourteen years!!!   I'm so long in the tooth that I can remember all the furore over the BBC move to 2D in 2003 - there was (amongst some,  Baz I think was one) mass panic that we'd all lose the BBC and there were so many "rumours" about what SES could and couldn't do.   I tried to keep everyone calm  and as it turned out the benefits of scapping the Solus card system were huge - for us and for the BBC.   Anyone remember oh-so-grumpy Mazan,   a true expert but well - a bit grumpy!

This current situaton is of course slightly more serious - but only slightly,  as we're seeing.

TBH I don't think advertisers are that bothered.   In Devon we have the ludicrous situation where if one watches ITV 1 HD (as opposed to SD) on terrestrial one get ads for carpet warehouses in Birmingham and Wolverhampton.   Then (last time I looked anyway) we had the London regional news inflicted on us.   I know that ITV have done a lot of agonising over the regional ad situation in Britain - understandably,   but on the international front I doubt advertisers are that bothered - after all if their ad gets seen does it matter what channel it's on....?

Of course,  it might be annoying for those companies that price their products at the same numerical value in euros and pounds (as some do) and trouser the extra British profit.   It might increase the chances of their being rumbled by folk who watch ads in Britain and on the continent.

[Quillan]

I couldn't agree more Martin about the dish on the chimney. I watched my guys put up the 100, 120 and 140cm dishes. They had to climb up a ladder to the first level roof then bolt it to the wall of the second story bedroom. Along came a gust of wind and they nearly dropped it as well as stumbling around. It was quite frightening for a few second. They also used a much bigger and stronger mount to give it stability in the wind. The mounting tube is about 60% bigger than the standard one. I am lucky because it is also protected by the bedroom wall. Personally I wouldn't suggest attaching anything bigger than 90cm to a chimney after watching that. Does not sound much of a difference in size yet it has quite an effect in the wind and I have this vision of not only being blown off but taking part of the chimney with it. Not very nice to sit having your soup and a great lump of chimney drops through the roof. Thats my thoughts anyway.

[DerekJ]

Just a thank you from me as well. I've been watching this, and the other related threads, with interest. I can't offer any expertise in this area and we won't be back in France until the end of March... so what we will find I've no idea. It looks like we may be just just above the "magic line" that has been suggested... a little to the NE of Cahors.

[Martin963]

If you've got an 80 cm dish I guess you'll be fine.   I believe Danny is roughly at the same latitude as you.

If it's a 60 cm then it might be on the edge.   Certainly it would be great if you could let us know when you get out there.   I'll be out at about the same time but as we're the best part of one hundred miles north of you we're well above the risk zone.

[CeeJay]

I happen to be in UK st the moment, although returning to Herault next week so I don't know what our situation is. However a friend living in nearby Le Vigan (Gard) emailed me to say that he has lost all BBC channels, but a neighbour not more than 400 metres away with the same size 80cm dish can still receive!

[Martin963]

Probably the dish with the missing channels needs a slight revision.   If the skew (the twist of the LNB) was set up to favour 2D originally it may need a little correction.

Having said that,  Herault is a long way south and I'd be keeping an eye out for the need to upgrade to a 1 m dish.   Will be interesting to see whether the working 80 cm actually does the business 100% of the time.

Until we get more reports in it's hard to say for sure....

[ericd]

[quote user="Martin963"]If you've got an 80 cm dish I guess you'll be fine.   If it's a 60 cm then it might be on the edge.   [/quote]

[;-)] .... How many Km out of the "risk zone" should one be to continue receiving or not is the big question. If it's anything like the water down the plug-hole around the equator, it's only a couple metres (2 metres North it's as we know it clockwise, on the equator line itself it goes straight down the hole vertically and 2 metres South it goes anti-clockwise.... weird!)

 

Martin963. Question on the Sky region 2 dish. It's 90cm x 60cm mesh dish........ does that make it a 70cm dish ?? We will be on-site end of February and will be able to report