Using a U.K. registered vehicle in France

[Tony F Dordogne]

Since I've been in France I've seen, far too close and personal, the consequences of people being stupid with cars and how quickly an insurance company - French - decided not to have anything to do with a driver and that car was on French plates.

It's easy WB.  You take a chance with your car and don't get caught, you've got a result.  You have a serious accident and get caught, uninsured and hurt one of my family - your family live with the consequences because be assured, you will pay for it, literally, because I'll sue the arse off you in Court and that's apart from anything else that happens to you with the gendarmes.

Remember folks, all this information is recorded somewhere.  You've managed to persuade your auntie to conspire with you in this little scam.  But folks here know who's here full time and if you have an accident of any seriousness, let alone injure or kill somebody, the gendarmes will make enquiries with your Mairie, especially if you live in a smaller commune and you will get caught eventually.  And of course, when all the information is released to the 'other side' they will also make their own enquiries to show that you've been keeping the car in France and not the UK.

So why not re-register the car here and go legit?  Thousands of us have no problem in doing that, is it sheer bloody-mindedness, rank stupidity or just the sense of wanting to feel clever? 

I'm hoping it's a wind up WB when you say that you are on the UK electoral roll etc etc.  If not, you're no different to all the other chancers here.

 

 

[bigears]

hi

The fact that you have to be (tax or domicile?) resident in the uk,  let alone have your own house to have a uk registered car insurance policy has taken me by surprise.   I'm not saying its not true, it just doesn't sound right.  What happens if you live between two countries lets say france and the uk, with a house in each.  If you are tax resident in france, are you saying you cannot have an uk registered car with uk insurance, which you keep at your house in the uk?  We are considering at this moment buying a second vehicle so we can have one either side of the channel so that we can benefit from cheap air fares. 

[woolybanana]

You should have a French registered and insured vehicle in France. UK I dunno about as it was a long time ago.

[Bob T]

Yes you can have one on both sides of the channel, but the one in France will be in France and therefore must abide by the French importation rules. Why not ask your UK insurance comapany and give them all the facts, or read the small print.

At the end of the day, if the car is in France for more than 6 months then it breaks the French rules, and that will be enough for the insurance company to not pay out if something happens.

Don't think that you will get off lightly here. If you kill someone then you could be in jail for a long time, for manslaughter,  in addition to having to sell your house to pay out damages.

[woolybanana]

Bob T, I seem to remember many moons ago when I went into all this that you could keep a car here for use with your second home. Is that not or no longer the case or does it only apply to French people with second homes in France?

[Iceni]

No problem provided that the car that lives in France is registered here and has valid insurance and CT.

John

not

[cooperlola]

Put your wooden spoon away you naughty little banana![6]

[woolybanana]

Me Coops, would I do such a thing?[:P]

[AnOther]

As if [;-)]

[Cat]

There is a simple answer, for anyone wondering about UK car insurance validity in France, ask your UK car insurer.  Of course, it will be necessary to disclose all facts, otherwise the insurance may not be valid.

As with most things on this forum, the majority of people will try to point you in the right direction and give you advice (although there will sadly always be a few who may deliberately try to obscure the issue, )  but it is what the insurers say that actually counts.

[AnOther]

[quote user="bigears"]The fact that you have to be (tax or domicile?) resident in the uk,  let alone have your own house to have a uk registered car insurance policy has taken me by surprise.[/quote]

I don't know how many times it needs saying. To insure a car in UK you should be UK resident. Whether you have a house or not is irrelevent. When you apply for insurance one of the questions you are invariably asked is "are you UK resident".

[quote user="bigears"]If you are tax resident in france, are you saying you cannot have an uk registered car with uk insurance, which you keep at your house in the uk?[/quote]Tax resident and resident are not neccessarily the same thing and domicile is whole subject on it's own! The fundamental point is you cannot be resident in two countries at the same time and as John says, car in France = french registration etc. etc.

I understand your predicament but honestly don't know what the answer to it is, if indeed there is a fully legal one, because it would seem to be the case that you cannot do this without breaking the rules one side of the water or the other so as Cat says, ask and disclose, then there can be no misunderstanding or ambiguity.

As an aside, and I wonder just how many of us this applies to, consider also the legality of a UK citizen, resident in France, returning to visit children and who are, for convenience, named drivers on their insurance. The same thing applies, they should be UK resident or if not the insurance company should be aware of the fact and have agreed to include them in that knowledge.

Not aimed at anyone specifically (no, not even you wooly [;-)]) but if people put half as much effort into re-registering their car in France as they seem to be willing to put into into trying find ways around it then perhaps this question wouldn't come up so frequently.

[woolybanana]

Oh Ernie I couldn't agree more, but wish that the sham of Europe would sort its act out so that these situations do not arise. I suspect it is little more than a commercial ploy to get people to pay twice for what should be a single charge, eg insurance.

Cat, there are often nuances which have to be looked at and rules which change, which is why the obscure corners of these matters have to be explored. And always people prepared to take short cuts.

[Quillan]

If we put aside the fact that a member of the forum (an ex Major-General in HM or is it ex school inspector, I'm confused) is trying to stir things up, incite people to commit an illegal act and should really be ignored I have spent a good thirty minutes on the websites of the following companies (with whom I have no connection or conduct any business with) namely Churchill, Direct Line, Norwich Union and Admiral Insurance.

All the aforementioned companies state that you must be resident in the UK. They also say that that the vehicle must comply with the current UK road traffic act i.e. the driver must have a full current EU driving licence valid for the type of vehicle they are driving, the vehicle must have a current tax disk and MOT where applicable and be registered within the UK.

All of them have a Fraud statement which is much the same so I have copied the Direct Line one as an example “If you or anyone acting for you make a claim knowing that any part of it is false, we will not pay the claim and we may cancel your policy and all other policies you have with The Royal Bank of Scotland Group (the RBS Group). We may also involve the relevant authorities to bring criminal proceedings.”

All UK policies are valid in any country which the Commission of the European Community approves as meeting the requirements of Article 7(2) of the European Community Directive on Insurance of Civil Liabilities arising from using motor vehicles (number 72/166/CEE). This basically means that you only have third party cover. You may extend the cover to fire and theft or fully comp by paying a further premium depending on the length of stay within the EU. Some companies include a limit of 30, 60 or 90 days of the same level of domestic cover. Some companies like Sun Alliance include it for the full term of the domestic cover.

The DVLC, should you wish to phone them on 0870 240 0010 will tell you that the registration of the vehicle determines under which EU (countries) law the vehicle comes under so if it has a UK registration it must have a current tax disk, UK insurance (for which you must be resident there) and, if applicable, a current MOT certificate.

Therefore driving a UK resident car, as some ‘person’ suggested, in France when you are not resident in the UK is illegal. As indeed is driving a UK registered vehicle with a French CT and insurance. The latter probably breaks, in this case, French law as well but I don't have the time to go looking for the details but please feel free to look yourself.

If you still have a question or you simply don’t believe me then you can see for yourself by visiting the websites of the companies given, The EU website and you can also phone the DVLA on the number given.

It beggars belief that this issue has come up yet again when the answer is quite simple. If you move to France and live here then either register your car here as soon as possible or simply sell your old one back in the UK and buy a car here. Try as you like you can't beat the system and with such a serious issue as this where flippant posts have no place I am amazed that people still think and even advise that you can 'get away with it' when at the end of the day it's cut and dry.

[Hagar]

Quillan - thats a very good summary backed up with proper sources. However the reason I think this issue keeps coming back is that a number of people still don't believe it is cut and dry . I am not one of them by the way but posted this on TF a few weeks ago hoping to understand why so many people feel safe flaunting the rules --

"Yesterday on a 3 minute walk down the main drag of our village I counted 5 UK plated cars without a valid tax disc. Two of them had CT and French insurance stickers. 4 of the five I know to be in daily use - one belongs to the local estate agent.

We get regular (about once a month) "controles" by the gendarmes on the very street where these cars are normally parked. I have been stopped twice (on french plates) in the last six months.

So - I can only conclude -

1.) The gendarmes round here are simply not concerned about it all. I was stopped a couple of times in Carcassonne early last year on UK plates - first time was for a breath test - they didn't ask to see any papers. 2nd time was in the dark - when they saw the UK plates they just waved me on.

2) The owners of these cars (and presumably their french insurers) are either completely ignorant of the law OR believe it is just another law that is never enforced.

Anybody know of anybody who has actually been done for driving on UK plates illegally ?

Anybody know of anybody on UK plates illegally that has been passed through a "controle" ? "

Got no responses

rgds

Hagar

[woolybanana]

Q, have you never heard of Gilbert and Sullivan?

(I  am the very model of a modern Major-General,

I've information vegetable, animal, and mineral,

I know the kings of England, and I quote the fights historical

From Marathon to Waterloo, in order categorical;

I'm very well acquainted, too, with matters mathematical,

I understand equations, both the simple and quadratical,

About binomial theorem I'm teeming with a lot o' news,

With many cheerful facts about the square of the hypotenuse. ) Sorry off thread. There is more. Read it with care, it is fun and relevant.

Q, If you read my posts carefully you will see that I was definitely not encouraging people to break the law but was posing those questions which are posed by those who might be thinking about it in order to encourage useful responses. In the earlier part of the thread this was rather obscured by what we might call bad tempers. I have been in and out of Europe for years and years, mainly France and Belgium and am more than conscious of the rules and the way they change. And of the need to stay within them. But, as regards getting a message across, there are many ways of skinning a cat.

Q and everyone, if the issue comes up again and again (and this time I did not raise it to be fair, it could have been a troll), it is because there will always people who dont understand, wont understand or cant understand and there is little that can be done. Duckers, divers, spivs (that dates me), wide boys a plenty in France. On the other hand, as I said earlier in reply to Ernie, the sooner these things are European the better for all of us.

Now, if anyone wants advice on getting a driving licence in Libya, getting a licence conversion is Kuwait, insurance in Iran or even better, importing a car into some of the aforenamed, then let me know. That is a real challenge.

[woolybanana]

As Quillan wants me to be all serious for once, there is another issue that needs to be highlighted and it is that of getting car insurance in France. The pretty little blonde in the front office may roll her eyes at you and give you French insurance even if your car has UK plates, BUT, you actually have only ONE month to get French registration sorted out or the insurance will be null and void. But of course the little blonde is paid to sell you car insurance, not sort out your problems or registration, and may forget to tell you this fact. And the lovely little mite may be on commission too. Or, if you are lucky, because I am impervious to little blondes (well, no, Q is watching and that is an udder story), I asked the question and despite winking, blinking and squirming her body provocatively, she was obliged to admit that I had 30 days to get French plates. So BEWARE guys. Or the doodoo will beckon.

[woolybanana]

Quillan, somewhere in the deepest recesses of the sorry lump of putty I call my memory, I seem to remember you saying you once had a bit of a prang in France when using British plates and the insurance company were ok. Was that as a tourist? Or were you in the process of changing the registration? What was your experience dealing with it all then? it might help some of the doubters here is someone with real experience described what happened to them.

And anybody else too, particularly if the car was over here for more than a few weeks holiday trip, and on UK plates still.

[Quillan]

[quote user="Hagar"]

Quillan - thats a very good summary backed up with proper sources. However the reason I think this issue keeps coming back is that a number of people still don't believe it is cut and dry . I am not one of them by the way but posted this on TF a few weeks ago hoping to understand why so many people feel safe flaunting the rules --

SNIP

[/quote]

It's because of greed on behalf of the owner and the insurance companies. The guy who does the CT probably thinks (and I am giving him the benefit of the doubt) that the person is getting it done prior to registering their car in France. The excuse the insurance company makes (and we have to get inside a French head to understand their thinking) is that why not sell them insurance. It's up to the owner to read the small print and to understand French law not him/her, its part of the French way not to give information away unless specifically asked. None of the insurers will say when the next year is due 'Did you put it on French plate' they just take the money, pure greed. If the stupid idiot buying the insurance is actually buying something that's not valid well that's up to them, well I am sure that's what the French insurer thinks.

The owners greed is that they pay less for insurance in France and don't pay car tax which on some UK cars is as much as £400 (I believe but don't mind being corrected). They also think they are saving the fees of changing their car over.

As many have said before me and no doubt will say it again in the future it's OK till it goes wrong. I would love to see one of these idiots run over a French person then get taken to court and their house and belongings taken away from them and then to languish in jail for many, many years and it spread all over the French and UK press. Perhaps THEN people will see its wrong although I somehow doubt it.

As for the gendarmes well I guess you can give up on that idea as it seems they are not interested which to some will be a licence to continue using their car illegally. Mind you the DVLA don't actually seem to bother either with cars abroad that do not comply with UK law re my other post but then what can they do. Perhaps they could get the customs at points of entry to the UK to pull those that owe back car tax and throw them in nick for a year with a hefty fine as many go back sometime or another.

I think if you honest people out there are really worried about this then write to you French MEP about it.

[Quillan]

[quote user="woolybanana"]

Quillan, somewhere in the deepest recesses of the sorry lump of putty I call my memory, I seem to remember you saying you once had a bit of a prang in France when using British plates and the insurance company were ok. Was that as a tourist? Or were you in the process of changing the registration? What was your experience dealing with it all then? it might help some of the doubters here is someone with real experience described what happened to them.

And anybody else too, particularly if the car was over here for more than a few weeks holiday trip, and on UK plates still.

[/quote]

Yes your quite right I did have a UK plated car here for about a year which did not require an MOT as it was under 3 years old and was insured in the UK where I was still resident. I was travelling back and forth before taking residence officially here in France in 2002. After that I sold the car in the UK and bought a French car here in France. In hindsight I should have never of bought the UK car and gone straight to a French one it would have been cheaper. I also have a LHD Bowler Tomcat which is registered here in France. I walked the paperwork round the Prefecture in Carcassonne in one day, it's not rocket science if you put your mind to it as others will tell you. So don't be afraid you can easily register your Triumph Stag here in France, you know it's silly and illegal to leave it on UK plates.

[woolybanana]

Thanks Quillan. What on earth is a Bowler Tomcat svp? It sounds painful.

Why did your paperwork take so long? It is a gift these days.

 

[Quillan]

[quote user="woolybanana"]

Thanks Quillan. What on earth is a Bowler Tomcat svp? It sounds painful.

Why did your paperwork take so long? It is a gift these days.

[/quote]

You can see mine here, its actuall a Wildcat which is a older version of the Tomcat  http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/830842/ShowPost.aspx

[bigears]

hi

So you have to be resident in the uk (whatever that means if it doesn't mean tax resident) to be able to insure a uk registered car in thr uk.   I can never remember being asked that direct question.  Is this driven by a european law?  Can a uk resident (tax resident?) have a french registered car insured in france for use at their villa (maison secondaire)?  You cannot win if the answer is no.  Last year I bought a car for my hols in nz and was able to insure it. If I had time I would look into this but I'm so busy enjoying myself here doing up my house and having relaxing days out on my mountain bike.

I've just been to pick up someone at Limoges airport, I love noting the number of  uk registered cars with out of date tax discs.  No it doesn;t upset me and I will not be reporting anyone. 

 

[Maricopa]

Whilst slightly off topic, I thought I would relate my experiences of importing a foreign registered car into France and registering it.  We decided before we moved out that we didn't want the hastle of trying to register a RHD car (changing headlights etc).  To cut a long (though quite amusing) story short, we ended up buying a LHD belgian registered car.  The guy who we bought it from specialises in importing and exporting LHD cars for people like me.  Belgium authorities issue export plates to cars to be exported.  These come with a minimum level of insurance, valid to the date of expiry (normally the end of the next month after the export date, I think).  Therefore this car was (very) temporarily imported into England (thursday to monday), and then imported into France.  When the car was sold on to me, I got a receipt from the seller and all the other documents, including the coveted Certificate of Conformity (CoC).

First step once in France was to visit the Hotel des Impots to get a Certificate of Import.  Once I showed my receipt for the vehicle and confirmed the age/ mileage, this was issued no further questions asked, and gratuit[:D].

Then, I had to book my car into our local garage for the controle technique, and 45 minutes later had another important piece of paper[:D].

So, armed with all the other relevant papers and photocopies, it was off to the prefecture, having checked the opening times on line for the Carte Grise office.  Unfortunately, this information was way out of date and the office was shut, so I resolved to come back early the next day (it was only open from 0830 to 1130!).  As we live 45 minutes away, this meant leaving at 0740ish.  So this time, having hoping I got the young girl at the counter, but ending up with the battleaxe, I presented my dossier, and all was fine until Madame entered one number from the CoC, and the computer said non.  No amount of pleading could convince her that the error was possibly hers or to tell me what precisely the computer disagreed with, so there was no choice but to retreat with my tail between my legs.  Once I got home again, I was able to deduce that she had probably entered an O, not a 0[:(][:(].

So following day, off again.  This time got the nice homme at the other end of the counter, and after having explained what I thought was the problem, he confirmed that the number was good for my car, and 10 minutes later I had my Carte Grise[:D][:D][:D].

The point of all this, is that perhaps the UK authorities could have a similar system, and that may go some way to reducing the problem of illegal UK cars in France.  As someone else said, only once someone is heavily dealt with by the law then maybe the situation will start to change[Www].

[Bob T]

[quote user="bigears"]

So you have to be resident in the uk (whatever that means if it doesn't mean tax resident) to be able to insure a uk registered car in thr uk.   I can never remember being asked that direct question.  Is this driven by a european law?  Can a uk resident (tax resident?) have a french registered car insured in france for use at their villa (maison secondaire)?  You cannot win if the answer is no.  Last year I bought a car for my hols in nz and was able to insure it. If I had time I would look into this but I'm so busy enjoying myself here doing up my house and having relaxing days out on my mountain bike.

I've just been to pick up someone at Limoges airport, I love noting the number of  uk registered cars with out of date tax discs.  No it doesn;t upset me and I will not be reporting anyone.

[/quote]

The need to be resident in the UK to have UK insurance is driven by the UK insurance company. You may not have been asked the question, but you signed the form, now read the small print.

French insurance companies don't require that you are resident in France.

As you have a maison secondaire here (your words) then your primary residence is the UK. To have a car that is kept here in France you need to comply with French laws on car importation, and they say that it should be imorted within a given period, if it is not French registered.

You can win, just comply with French rules for a car in France and UK rules for a car in the UK. That was not too difficult was it?

[cooperlola]

Yeah, Bob, but it requires filling in funny French forms and communicating with French people to register a car in France.[Www]