Any demand for English GPs in France?

[Daft Doctor]

Hi, I'm an experienced GP in England and also do some GP specialist musculoskeletal work.  It is my hope to move to France (hopefully St Gervais in Haute-Savoie) with my family within the next few years.  I could retire from Medicine altogether and try and do something completely different to earn a living (the NHS pension is generous, but not enough to live on if taken early), but I wondered from all the expats out there in France how satisfied they were with their French GPs and whether they felt there might be sufficient demand for an british GP to either set up independantly (if the French Authorities would allow it) or to tout my services with local French GP practices.  I would want to integrate with the french way of life and community and not create any animosity, so the latter might be the preferred option.  There are a few expats in the Haute Savoie area, but a lot of british tourists in both winter and summer, so I wondered how important the availablitity of a british GP might be, both in terms of language and different culture in practicing medicine.  Any insights or opinions would be very interesting to hear.    

[Pads]

I have just the job for you

http://languedoc.angloinfo.com/forum/topic.asp?topic_id=3257

 

Good luck with it ... see you down there if you get it [:)]

[Callie]

I think you would probably have to talk to someone who has gone through the medical bit to find out what the regs are here. I believe the rules might have changed, but, for example, a few years ago, British physiotherapist friend was not allowed to practise here in France in her own cabinet. But if the local hospital had need of her services.....she would be allowed to assist. But it's possible that for a doctor, it may well be different.

I work with doctors as a Secouriste Equipier (I have the same diplôme as the Pompiers) and I find them great to work with. A lot of them have done overseas work, including disasters like the Tsunami so they used to dealing with emergencies, which is part of what we do.

Certainly in our area (Maine et Loire), the one English speaking GP near us is inundated with non-French speaking patients who will come from miles away. In France people are at liberty to go to any GP they wish, in spite of having to actually register with one particular GP.

I would have thought that French GPs would welcome someone who spoke English. I know our GP says that he sometimes siwhed he spoke English because sometimes he is afraid that sometimes his patients may not have understood him, and vice versa.

I'm sorry I can't be of any practical help, but do give it a go - because i believe you would be welcomed with open arms (but of course it does depend on the region !)

Best of luck !

[Suze01]

I have sent you a Private Message - check you PM inbox.

[Patf]

We live in the Gers, 32, and there's a shortage of generalistes for the rural areas. One small town near us was without a doctor for nearly a year. But of course you would need fluent french.

As others have said, you will need to find out how to have your qualifications recognised.

We have lived in 2 places here, and both doctors were excellent, very thorough and caring. Hospital specialists also. When my husband broke his leg the orthopaedic surgeon changed his plaster personally during a followup visit.

[5-element]

All I know is that there is a desperate shortage of GPs in rural areas in France. I recently saw a TV programme showing some Bulgarian medics going on an intensive French language course in Romania, a special scheme to be able to become a GP in one of those rural areas. I think they needed to be passed by a panel, but it was more their grasp of French which was under scrutiny than their medical skills.

The programme was precisely about the way foreign medics were enticed to come to France to fill those rural vacancies.

[Anton Redman]

I would say there was a huge demand.

In broad terms I am not bothered I know enough first aid to cope with anything in an emergency and after that can remember / work out what I am going to die of in almost all Europeam languages. However the frequency with which people post wanting English speaking doctors and dentists suggests there is a good demand. Have a look at how many Doctors per thousand of population in France versusUK

[Gardian]

Topical, for us.

In our GP's waiting room this morning, there were eventually 4 x British couples + one solo French lady.  That's very unusual, in fact I had no idea that there were so many of 'us' in the area.  Never seen any of them in 4 yrs here.

Our GP is German, she's lived and worked here for (I guess) 20 yrs+, and is multi-lingual & very well-respected.  She didn't gain the last compliment from the incoming Swiss / Belgians / Dutch / Brits.  The local French can be hard to please, so don't underestimate that.

Don't think that this helps much, other than to say that you have to have to be sure of the acceptability of your professional qualification (others will almost certainly have advised on this, I suspect) and to do what you would do, when moving anywhere from where you are now, i.e. location. If the place aint right, don't go there. 

[Daft Doctor]

Hi, thanks to everyone for their input.  I did a bit of internet searching, and as I have quite high level GP qualifications and over 20 years experience, I would have no problems practicing in France from the professional point of view and would not need to sit any competency exams.  I should also say that although I have only basic french, it would be my intention to improve drastically on that as quickly as possible when I got settled, so I would hopefully be able to eventually see french nationals if needed (or wanted by them!)  It sounds as though the next step might be to speak or contact some of the GP practices around Chamonix, St Gervais, Megeve area and see what they would feel about having me around to help out.  Many thanks, and if any more observations or advice, keep it coming! 

[Busy Bee]

Having been resident in that region for several years - I would say you would be welcomed with open arms by the non-french speaking population.  I have a good level of spoken french but still can not be as precise as I would like to with things of the utmost importance, for example medically.

Foreigners now account for 20 percent of Chamonix area residents and more of them speak English than French.  I never ceased to be amazed by the lack of spoken french, by people who live in the region year round and the total lack of effort they made.  However, it is perfectly possible to live in the area and not have to speak french, as practically everyone speaks English.  I know for sure there is an English nurse in Sallanches hospital, an English optician (working as an optician to the local opthalmo), an English physio and an English dentist and it takes forever to get an appointment.

So the way is open, it would be a good move for you, the only thing to be aware of, is that there is a certain amount of negativity amongst the locals.  House prices in the area are as high as Paris and the Cote d'Azure and a certain element (rightly or wrongly but that is another discussion) blames this on the Brits.  This is not to put you off, merely to advise you, forewarned is foreamed!

The doctors I have used in Les Houches have all been great and the region is a great place to live, we have since moved to another region of France that suits us better better but we did enjoy it there at the time.

 

 

 

[Kitty]

I would have thought that you could set up a private practice for the British community, offering English speaking medical advice.  This would enable you to dictate the hours that you work.  I am sure that there would be demand.

Not being able to translate could be tricky but presumably you could get around this by employing a linguist.

 

[5-element]

Cathy, I am not sure that l'Ordre des Médecins, would allow this. Remember that this is France, very keen on its republican/egalitarian principles, and that anything that is done by/for an exclusive group of people, in this case, Anglophones, would be seen as "communautarisme" and therefore not allowed. I do know that this is something very hard to fathom for non-French.

The fact that there would be a demand for an English GP would have nothing to do with it. On the surface, it has to look as if the GP is catering for ALL of the people - hence, the absolute need to speak French. Unless perhaps, if the English GP worked as an assistant to another established French GP. 

I don't know this for an absolute fact, but I would be very surprised if it was otherwise.

 

[Anton Redman]

From the dim past I am almost positive that Anglo Info had to stop providing a list of English speaking Doctors for some proffessional or government reason. Mind you I am pretty sure a few planted questions on websites and attendance at a few social events would spread the word.

[Cat]

Anton, I think the reason AI don't allow people to post doctors' details is due to their misinterpreting the Code de Déontologie.  For the same reason they don't allow vets' details.

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/1445792/ShowPost.aspx

I watched a French program recently about the difficulty in recruiting doctors in rural areas.  In some places it has become nigh on impossible to find general practitioners to replace doctors as they retire.  Some communes resort to using 3rd parties to hunt down doctors from other EU member states.  The program focused on a Polish (I think) general practitioner.  Her French language skills, although pretty good, were not up to the standard required, and so she had to work alongside another doctor in France until she had reached the required language proficiency.

[Clair]

[quote user="Anton Redman"]From the dim past I am almost positive that Anglo Info had to stop providing a list of English speaking Doctors for some proffessional or government reason. Mind you I am pretty sure a few planted questions on websites and attendance at a few social events would spread the word.[/quote]

Same as the vet info request HERE.

I did look into it a long while ago and posted some links to the official texts.

As far as I can remember, the gist of it is that those employed in the medical profession cannot advertise or push their services, except for listing their name and qualifications as they do in the phone book or on their outside plaque for example.

For instance, they cannot describe their surgery with added flourish ("As seen in the local paper!!!", "Dr Whatsit's miracle answer to smelly feet!!! Available NOW!!!").

There is nothing against recommendations.

[Nickel]

Daft Doctor

Have sent you a pm

 

[Ron Avery]

[quote user="Puzzled"]I would think that the most important thing will be the OPs capacity to speak French. It may not be a big deal for the rest of us but no matter what transferable qualifications he may have, I imagine that the powers that be for a variety of reasons will demand an excellent command of the French language - so get started on those language cds straightaway.[:D][/quote]

Yes spot on Puzled, I think some of those who live in the "non-French speaking part of France"[blink] have shown a remarkable ignorance of facts and of the French health system.  The whole medical system is in French surprisingly enough, forms, prescriptions, referrals for consultations, nurses visits, blood tests.  Then there are other doctors and specialists, plus some of the customers may also be French,[:-))]  not to say the PC based system they use for identifying medicines etc.

Just for the record, you cannot practice in any medical capacity without being able to show a excellent knowledge of French, and as for the suggestion about setting up as an "english only doctor" that is just ridiculous.  Nobody seems to have mentioned that French GPs are on less than 40% of what UK GPs get and from that they have to pay for their own surgery expenses and staff, there was a poster on here who worked in a GP surgery who could confirm this as it was mentioned  the last time there was a discussion about this.

I hope the OP does not try and do what those other two greedy brit doctors tried to do to overcome the pay defecit, they asked for approval to charge a double coinsultation payment from Brits for consults in English claiming they were providing a much more thorough service, yeah right, needless to say they did not get past first base with the authorities.

 So Doc,  by all means move to France and by all means become a GP but you will have to take a massive pay cut if you do and learn to speak French like a local before you will get any where near a stethoscope, I also would not rely on brits to be the mainstay of a practice in any area except around Nice perhaps as in the rest of France if they are actually registered with the French system (few are who have two homes are)  they are going back to the UK in droves, funnily enough most Brits cite the language barrier as the biggest single reason for going back[:P].

[mint]

Ronnie, there's just no one can tell it like it is the way you do!

No, I'm not laughing at you or mocking or any of those things.  I do believe you have given doc here a good dose of realism.

Let's hope your medicine is working for him.[:D]

[Daft Doctor]

Hi, I understand your points absolutely, and certainly wouldn't want to contribute to a 'brits-only' culture or society in France.  As stated in my previous posting, my intention would be to concentrate very hard on the language both before and on arrival in France, so to be as 'marketable' as possible as a GP (or anything else for that matter).  I just wanted to understand what that 'market' might be, and it seems on balance that an english speaking GP might be valued in many areas. There is certainly a whole language in itself related to medicine and all the logistics which go with the job.  I'd have thought very good french would be essential even just for that.  I could even just spend an initial period settling in, improving my french, getting to know how the land lies medically, and getting to know people locally.  Observing real consultations first hand is one way GPs are trained in the UK, and this might be possible in France by saying the right things to the right people.  That would help understanding not only of the medical language, but how the system works in comparison to the UK.

As far as pay cuts are concerned, any work would be mainly to supplement my NHS pension, so a few euro for a few sessions per week would fit the bill.  I wouldn't want to work flat out (have done that enough already), but thought that some local french practices might value an english speaking GP as it might attract income to them whilst satisfying an un-met demand.  Just as an aside, GPs in the UK certainly do pay for premises and staff substantially from their own pockets (a fact often completely ignored in the press).

Thanks again 

[Daft Doctor]

With no offence meant to sweet 17, I certainly am a realist, and don't posess any rose-tinted specs.  That's why I am researching wise advice and opinion through the forum (with grateful thanks for all input received), rather than booking my plane ticket and lovingly packing my stethoscope.................    

[mint]

Good luck, Doc!

You'll make out, I'm sure.  Plenty of commonsense and expectations kept in check.

I don't think it's so much the medical vocab as such because after all most medical terms have latin roots and there is therefore enough similarity between the 2 languages to enable easy translation.

It's more the everyday language you need for your French bedside manner and, as you have so rightly pointed out, it's critical to understand how the different health systems work.

 

[Frenchie]

[quote user="5-element"]

Cathy, I am not sure that l'Ordre des Médecins, would allow this. Remember that this is France, very keen on its republican/egalitarian principles, and that anything that is done by/for an exclusive group of people, in this case, Anglophones, would be seen as "communautarisme" and therefore not allowed. I do know that this is something very hard to fathom for non-French.

The fact that there would be a demand for an English GP would have nothing to do with it. On the surface, it has to look as if the GP is catering for ALL of the people - hence, the absolute need to speak French. Unless perhaps, if the English GP worked as an assistant to another established French GP. 

I don't know this for an absolute fact, but I would be very surprised if it was otherwise.

 

[/quote]

 

Being French , I find this is very true.

[Nick Trollope]

Coupla points;

For one reason or another, I know a number of practitioners (GPs and hospital), all of whom speak good English - it is a trait of well-educated French people. All of them want to work in the NHS.....

English-speakers probably account for 1% of the population. Given that the French are a bunch of hypocondriacs, they (Brits) probably account for rather less than 1% of patients.....

It appears that a French GP earns about a half of a GP in a similar post in the UK.

There is a huge shortage of GPs here - that said, a doctor without perfect French would be hard pushed to get any job (as a doctor), leave alone an easy one - French doctors work much harder than any UK doctor I know (I know a few of them, too!)

Come to France to retire, or move to Pas de Calais and do a bit of locum work in Kent. If it is your intention to destroy your family, blow all your savings and spend the rest of your (shortened) life trying to persuade old French drunks to give up Pastis, move to France to work....

 

[Danny]

good post Nick.

From a patient's perspective, I would always want to see a doctor who speaks my own language very fluently. The doctor is guided initally by the feelings/words of the patient.

This can involve a lot of colloquialisms and gestures and there is plenty of scope for misunderstandings.

Of course, I am in France now so don't have the luxury. I an aware that I just have to try to be as clear as possible in French.

Danny

 

[giantpanda]

Hi!

To be able to work as a GP in France, you have 2 main outlets.

1. You can get engaged in a public hospital, where the rules concerning the approval of your capacities is considered in a different way, as it will be in the private sector - I do not know the details.

However foreign doctors working in hospitals are unfortunately for them considered 2nd class as regards pay -  they will not be paid at the same level as a French college, and will not be allowed to move to the private sector without the necessary confirmation.

Here there are certainly jobs to be had.

2. In the remaing sector, as a GP you need to be approved by the "Securité Sociale", because living on patients who only pay privately in full, will be rather difficult, even in Paris.

As I gather ( I may be wrong ) ,you need to be " confirmed " - this may not be the right term, but it means following a general course which can take some 2 years. But there are possibly exceptions.

Unfortunately all the links are in French!

Best is to get official advice from the " Ordre des Médecins ".

http://www.conseil-national.medecin.fr/

Then on this site see:

http://www.conseil-national.medecin.fr/?url=instal/article.php&id=1

and this relative to GB:

http://www.web.ordre.medecin.fr/med_instal/royaume-uni.pdf

Generally speaking the French system due to the centralisation of the formations, is completely lopsided, in as much that Paris and the Ile de France has too many doctors, and that the province has too few. On of the main reasons it that most refuse to live in the province ( or end of the world ) whereby the part played by the spouse is essential.

As a result, many towns, and villages are desperately to get a GP locally established, and will help financially or with premises. Difficult to appreciate if the help proposed is an incentive enough.

To sell a medical cabinet ( the goodwill ) in France , even for specialists, even for those where there is a demand, is getting next to impossible.

What the State would like to change the organisation, in as much as in the country, they establish what can be called a "medical center". A building where several GP, nurses, etc. all exercise, so that one can always replace the other. This is more or less left to the local authorities, and cash is missing.

It does seem that there  is a abnormality in the French system, for the Mutuelles, who sometimes run a medical cabinet for their members where foreign doctors are employed just on their home diploma ( at least I know the case of one specialist* ).

* In this case I would consider that this is completely irresponsible, because not only the person is not aware of certain standard examinations done in France, or incapable of doing them for children, and not capable to recording the work done, because he has not gone through the necessary " updating ". For a GP it may be different, whereby a certain knowledge of French would be essential.

So basically you need the help of the " Ordre des Médecins ", who may have special services for foreign doctors willing to settle in France.

Yours,

giantpanda