New tax on non resident home owners

[nomoss]

It's not really a lot of money - we paid just over €200 per annum income tax on notional rent for a property we had in Spain.

And we didn't resent paying it, not at all. We had the opportunity to rent, but chose not to.

We sold the property because we didn't need it any more, not because the taxes were too high. 

But.

I really think all second home owners - resident or not - should pay a bit of extra tax. As someone else said, lots of people don't even have a first home, let alone a second one.

Notional rent is a good idea - almost everyone "unofficially" lets out their place to friends and family. Of course, you don't do you?

Legislators don't all think like Pooh bear, they actually do know what's going on.

And I do think those who have made some substantial money in their lifetime should spare a thought, and a few bob, for those who haven't. They're not all  wasters.

[idun]

Because, IF I haven't made myself clear already, they are already fleecing non residents y compris french non residents, just not with this. It isn't new  for them to fleece.

I didn't come on here whinging about how bad they are being to us,  have I? I have stated what has happened and what happens and believe me they have taken a lot from us one way or another, but here is a lovely gallic shrug, because I cannot do anything about it, and taxez iz taxez and when they say we have to pay, we have to pay.

The worst of all the french scams was the CGS and RDS, horrible nefaste taxes they are and they hit even the poorest in France and that still went through.

I cannot think of much to say about french residents with second homes. Some will be rich, some will, like my old neighbours have a second place that is owned by about 20 families as it was the grandparents or great grandparents old family home and the family could never agree about selling it and often the first home for these people is rented. Sorting that little lot out as to fairness would be very very hard in France.

 

 

[nomoss]

At least fleecing of the rich is better than the guillotine they used last time.

[just john]

[quote user="cooperlola"] What is so blindingly obvious about this move is that it's not about money at all - it's purely about votes and it's the fact that it's only aimed at non-French that proves it.

I'm all for taxation and the redistribution of wealth but let's not dress racism up as economic expediency, please. [/quote]

Taxation is essential to cover what's paid out of course, in many cases house owners pay more than their fair share in terms of what they receive, however lets not pretend that taxation creates the redistribution of wealth to the poorer either, ''divide between rich and poor is greater after 13 years of Labour rule than at any time since the Second World War, according to the Government’s own report into inequality'' and what is happening in Greece might demonstrate.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article7003694.ece

[powerdesal]

Idun, you have just given me a thought,

Perhaps we are looking at this proposal from the wrong point of view. I am sure most will agree that there are quite a number of properties vacant in France which, up to now, will not be sold because each member of a family of co-owners needs to agree to the sale. These properties, usually detached old places in the country are progressively falling apart.

Is it possible that the Govt are proposing this second home taxation situation to effectively ''persuade'' the owners of those properties to put them on the market, thus leading to an increase in available housing stock with an attendant reduction or slowing down of general property prices thus giving young French couples a better chance of house purchase.

Just a thought.

[Simon-the-censored]

nomoss - you're quite obviously a socialist and hey, guess what, not everyone is!

Simon :-) (let them eat cake!)

[just john]

[quote user="powerdesal"]  These properties, usually detached old places in the country are progressively falling apart.

 Is it possible that the Govt are proposing this second home taxation situation to effectively ''persuade'' the owners of those properties to put them on the market, thus leading to an increase in available housing stock with an attendant reduction or slowing down of general property prices thus giving young French couples a better chance of house purchase. Just a thought.[/quote]

The reality of this that the French generally do not buy the properties that are progressively falling apart, far from it and certainly if young french couples cannot afford miniscule mortgageable pavilions, they will not be renovating old stock, these were the provenance of Maison secondaire owners whose funds were gleefully accepted by French to go off and build another Pavilion. Should this tax become reality surely there will be less incentive for this process and less funds generated by piles of stones.

[powerdesal]

You may be right JJ, I was just trying to put a different spin on the situation.

[woolybanana]

I still want to see what European law says about the taxation of foreign second home owners only. It can only be non-discriminatory if all second home owners are taxed, surely?

[mint]

Can someone please explain to me how French legislation works?

What strikes me is that you hear about some change in the law, in this case, a new tax, and in no time at all the new law becomes effective.

How much do they debate these things?

In the UK, they generally have 2 readings of a white paper and then it goes up to the lords for scrutiny.  Then necessary amendments are made and then, if there is parliamentary time, the bill is passed.

Whilst I have read a bit around this subject and badgered my previous French teacher to explain these things to the class, I don't feel I have a satisfactory grasp of "how things work".

I'd be glad to know more if anyone can be bothered to tell me [:)]

[Simon-the-censored]

you would think so wooly but, this is France....part of Europe but only when it suits.....Liberté, égalité, fraternité! (not)

Simon :-)

[mint]

deleted

[powerdesal]

The definitions used may be interesting, for example, is it non resident owners of property in France or is it non resident owners of a second home in France. The potential difference being that a non resident living in rented accommodation outside France whilst owning a house in France cannot be said to own a second home, they only actually own one home, the one in France.

[idun]

Yes, this is getting very complicated isn't it.

It'll be much easier for them to use the non resident tax returns, local taxe forms to slip people into the current non residents system and fleece them like that. They aren't interested in what people own or don't own in other countries, just what they own in France when they are not resident in France. Simplistic and not hard to do.

I can now hear the cows coming home, so I'll stop debating about this now.[:)]

[powerdesal]

What is a non resident tax return?

[woolybanana]

Don't you fill one in every year? Most non-resident property owners do.[6]

[powerdesal]

Of course, I had forgotten, its at the same time as the grass cutting bulk return and the dechetterie estimated tonnage.

[Clair]

[quote user="sweet 17"]Can someone please explain to me how French legislation works?[/quote]

http://www.vie-publique.fr/decouverte_instit/animations/loi/Anim3.htm

In this case, a projet de loi has been approved by the conseil des ministres (cabinet).

The projet de loi will be presented to the Assemblée Nationale to be voted on. Then it goes to the Sénat, and back and forth a few times for amendment. When everybody agrees, it becomes law.

The President then enacts it and it becomes official once it is published in the Journal Officiel (JO).

A décret d'application defines how the law is applied.

[mint]

Thank you very much indeed, Clair.

Really nice and clear and builds on what I already know about the structure of government.

[Pickles]

[quote user="powerdesal"]How many taxpayers in France? say 50 million. [/quote]

I would venture to suggest that 50 million is somewhat of an overstatement. Half that, maybe, if you mean taxpayers who actually pay tax.

Regards

Pickles

[Pickles]

[quote user="powerdesal"]What is a non resident tax return?[/quote]

Reminds me of a story told by my father-in-law of a group of solicitors discussing the effects of the latest tax changes on their finances. The group turned to the eldest of their number, who was a barrister, and asked him how it would affect him. "My dear boy, I never joined!" was the response.

Regards

Pickles

[Aly]

This new tax has nothing to do with taxing the well off and helping the poor. The reason it is being introduced is to fill the gap in revenue left by the rise in the wealth tax threshold.

This has risen from 750.000 to 1.3 million.

Secondly its abt pandering to the Front nationale supporters as well as the French white working class. Many of whom do not feel represented by the socialists.

Foreigners are an easy target.

[bixy]

It is not only non-resident home owners who are going to be upset by this new law, should it come about. There are a large number of people who live in France, thus being fiscally resident, who have never filed a tax return. They usually have an accommodation address in the UK - a friend's or relative's - which they use to handle their affairs, receive pensions, benefits etc. I personally know five couples. As far as the French authorities are concerned then, they are second home owners, and will get an unpleasant surprise when the tax demand arrives. I will not be shedding any tears for them since in my view they are cheats.

[Simon-the-censored]

absolutely agree bixy but, the good news is that the fisc have employed an army of inspectors to specifically target this group of people during 2011 - i.e. those people who are clearly French resident but never file tax returns.

I for one really object to susidising this pathetic group - no matter where they come from.

Simon :-)

[PaulT]

[quote user="Bob T"]I have no problem with this proposed new tax. I cannot afford to keep a home in the UK and in France so I am a French resident with one home. If I were rich enough to have a home in the UK too, then presumably I would have enough money to pay the extra tax.
[/quote]

When we bought our property it was with the intention that when I retire at 60 that we would sell up in the UK and move to France.

Then that nice M Sarkosy changed the health rules and, as I have a couple of conditions that do not cause me any problems other than taking the tablets and having the regular injections I am fine but cannot get fully comprehensive health insurance. That therefore means that until I am 65 I will need to remain UK resident.

I am not prepared to do what some do, live in France but use a family member or friends address to make it look as though I am UK resident and still avail myself of the NHS. Therefore, I will have to have a property and observe the rules so as to remain a UK resident.

This means that I will spend at maximum 6 months less 1 day in France thereby depriving the French economy of my spending for 6 months and a day.

Having to maintain two properties will obviously limit the amount of income that we can spend for other purposes. Our bill in the French supermarkets is larger than in the UK due to the prices. The result could be, due to a new tax, that we bring non-perishable items with us and avoid the toll roads etc to make up for having to pay the tax. The net result of having to pay an additional tax could be that the money we input in to France will be less than if they had not imposed the tax.

In addition, it was our intention to have an in-ground swimming pool installed. This would give employment to artisans. As I presume this would affect the new tax by increasing it a far cheaper option, both in capital outlay and futue tax, would be to have an above ground pool. Perhaps not as nice but a great deal cheaper.

Also the French government has lost out on income tax  the 5 years between my being 60 and 65 - oh well, their loss

 

Paul