New tax on non resident home owners

[breizh]

[quote user="Martin963"]I wish they'd tighten up the health rules similarly in Britain I have to say....
[/quote]

Same rules in the UK. It's not quite like the DM/DT tell it! Everytime I'm moved back to the UK, my wife(French) has to jump though the same bureaucratic hoops as the Brits do here. As a French taxpayer, I'm with Idun on this. Early retired Brits, asset-rich, cash-poor, sponging off my taxes, for 5/10/20/30 years is not nice. Particularly, as it is the over 55s which consume 75% of healthcare budgets!!

Couple of suggestions. The new tax will only affect non-residents, so become resident. Think about getting a salaried job here, immediate access to the health system. Presumably after 15 years you've got a good level of French. There are jobs, low paid, but they exist in the cities, maybe not in Mortville-en-Bois, but check out Pole Emploi. Look for an employer in the UK who have a presence in France, and aim to get transferred!

[cooperlola]

[quote user="breizh"]

it is the over 55s which consume 75% of healthcare budgets!!

[/quote]Bear in mind that that percentage includes those over 65 whose healthcare is paid for by the UK.  The dependents of those over 65 are also paid for by Britain.

I contribute just as much (if not more) than the UK pays for the over 65s by the way.  We don't all pay "little or nothing".

A person with an AE or a tiny job probably pays far less than I do.  They also potentially take jobs from French nationals and younger people who need them to get a start in life, not just access to healthcare.

Martin and people like him  can't retire early here because he is "ill" - not because he can't afford it. 

[just john]

[quote user="cooperlola"][quote user="breizh"] it is the over 55s which consume 75% of healthcare budgets!![/quote]
Bear in mind that that percentage includes those over 65 whose healthcare is paid for by the UK.  The dependents of those over 65 are also paid for by Britain. I contribute just as much (if not more) than the UK pays for the over 65s by the way.  We don't all pay "little or nothing".
A person with an AE or a tiny job probably pays far less than I do.  They also potentially take jobs from French nationals and younger people who need them to get a start in life, not just access to healthcare. Martin and people like him  can't retire early here because he is "ill" - not because he can't afford it. [/quote]

Thank you Coops, I hesitated because I wasn't sure but thought that the UK had a reciprocal agreement with France on Health Service costs for the 65's.

As for the rest of it, it seems that there could be more focus on measures for enterprise start-ups and easier employment laws to encourage more in employment. There are single artisans here in building and catering who could employ but decline to do so because of what they see as punitive legislation. More might be achieved in France by such measures than preventing benefit sharing and inventing new taxes.

[cooperlola]

I am with you 100% there, JJ.  We discussed a while back, the problems for small restaurants and how the proprietors seem to be faced with a choice of either working themselves into the ground or taking on staff whose costs (not their wages) are so high that it barely pays to do so.  But the health thing was just like this new measure - it moved the focus away from the real ills and on to Johnny Foreigner.  But Britain's much the same, isn't it?  If you don't know how to  fix it, blame somebody else (preferably a group of despised individuals who can't vote).

[Frederick]

I am sure those of us who only spend a few weeks a year in France if we put our minds to it can save a good chunk of this additional tax the French government want to put on us . More picnics instead of restaurant lunches will save me quite a bit . More ordering UK goods on line to be sent out via the specialist couriers who charge £8 plus 10% of the shopping cost to be collected from a pick up point . Tesco shopping on line for example . much cheaper save a few euros there . Mouthwash only from the pharmacy in France for about 6 euros is £1.50 own brand in a UK supermarket and that's only one item . Put the top box on the car take out much more stuff to use in France rather than buy local .Yes there are lots of ways if we put our minds to it to find this extra tax from euros we would normally put into the local economy ....I wonder if those who thought up this additional tax are aware of how unpopular it will be with second home owners who my just change their minds about where they put their money from now on .

[Rabbie]

Never under estimate the appeal to politicians of taxing a group who do not have a vote. Foreign second home owners are unlikely to be able to vote in France so they are a soft target.  Also judging by the local feelings towards second home owners in this part of the UK there will not be much sympathy from the electorate. Taxing someone else is always popular

[just john]

[quote user="Frederick"]I am sure those of us who only spend a few weeks a year in France if we put our minds to it can save a good chunk of this additional tax the French government want to put on us . More picnics instead of restaurant lunches will save me quite a bit .  .[/quote]

[:D] Bien sûr cela doit être fait! . . . except give up the restaurant lunches, we may well be picnicing on the Sunday Lunch Meet though[:D]

[breizh]

[quote user="cooperlola"][quote user="breizh"]

it is the over 55s which consume 75% of healthcare budgets!!

[/quote]Bear in mind that that percentage includes those over 65 whose healthcare is paid for by the UK.  The dependents of those over 65 are also paid for by Britain.

[/quote]

Rereading, I don't think I made it very clear. I have no problem with those in legitimate receipt of healthcare via EU reciprical arrangements. My issue was with the people who used to access via CMU. Big house all paid for, new cars, but declaring very little tax. It was irritating in the extreme paying for them! In the Uk my wife has to declare her global assets, as well has her income, when initilly accessing the NHS. The question is not actually relevant to her, as she is my dependent, and works. However, the question is there.

[woolybanana]

If this tax does eventually go through and is applied to France resident second home owners as well, it will be a sort of extra inheritance tax, as many second homes come that way. This will not please a lot of people.

[Frederick]

As it boils down to being additionally taxed for not permanently living in France but spending part of the year there . Maybe the UK should come up with a "Physical Presence Tax " just for the 400.000 French in London who work there plus the rest from the EU .That should bring in a bit extra for the UK and be popular with the voters .

[Catalpa]

I'm no fan of taxes and I don't think this one will contribute much more than it costs to administer / collect and I do think that it is a tax whose main benefit is the political "spin" that can be applied to it but... it is a "equal" tax in that as it is currently being interpreted...

It applies to everyone (irrespective of nationality) who is not tax resident in France but who does have a property here - including French nationals / citizens

There appear to be exemptions planned for x number of years for anyone (nationality irrelevant) who has been tax resident in France for y number of years

I'm sure the 400,000 (or whatever the figure is) French people who are tax resident in the UK but own a home in France are just as p-ed off with this proposed tax as the British second-home owners.

The difference is, of course, is that next year, they have a vote. [;-)]

Edited to add / ask:

Is anyone frequenting the French-language "LivingBritain" forums (mostly London-based, I think) and if so, are the French emigrées as worked up about this tax as Brits are here on the English-language French forums?

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Catalpa"]I'm no I'm sure the 400,000 (or whatever the figure is) French people who are tax resident in the UK but own a home in France are just as p-ed off with this proposed tax as the British second-home owners.

The difference is, of course, is that next year, they have a vote. [;-)]

Edited to add / ask:
Is anyone frequenting the French-language "LivingBritain" forums (mostly London-based, I think) and if so, are the French emigrées as worked up about this tax as Brits are here on the English-language French forums?



[/quote]Hmm.  I have several French friends in the UK.  None has kept a home here.  I doubt that all of the French citizens in the UK can afford second homes, any more than I can.

Still, for those who can, as you say, it would be interesting to know if this has caused much of a stir.

[Catalpa]

I know several too, Coops - they rent in or around London, house-shares etc - and have apartements in Rennes and (someone else) Rouen. One rents their apartement out permanently so probably wouldn't fall foul of this tax but the other works from their Rouen home one week in every 5/6 weeks so although she's tax resident in the UK she spends time here too.

I will send interrogative emails immediately!

[cooperlola]

I've been googling trying to find some fora to guage reaction but some wedding or other still appears to be the topic du jour![:-))]  Will keep looking.[:)]

[Catalpa]

Rouen has just IM-ed me to ask "what in earth I am talking about" - as I've already sent her the Echos link, I've suggested she reads it. [:P]

[idun]

Martin, I have a question for you. As you bought in 1998 and appear to have decided to take early retirement in France, what plans had you made way back then for your health care. There was not the CMU then and I really have not got a clue what non residents health care would have entailed.

What I do know is that a friend in my village had two children, did not work and fortunately her ex was in La Suisse and had to pay her enough to 'manage' but not enough for health care. Hence she and her family had no health care cover, not talking about a mutualist, as you cannot join a mutualist unless you are in the french health system. The CPAM had told her that to join she would have to pay just about the equivilent of an employee and employers contribution to them, it was a lot for her.

And spending less when coming over, just about everyone I know in France is spending less and not going out so much. La crise is affecting everyone.

[cooperlola]

The difference was that we were told that the employee contribution level was unacceptable - full PHI was all that was.  Your friend could stay and take the risk that she'd have to pay for medical treatment - under today's regulations if she were a non-French EU citizen she would be breaking the law.  Martin can't come because full PHI is the only acceptable alternative and he can't get that because he has a medical condition which prevents it.  It is illegal now for a non French EU national to live here without it unless they work - that was not the case in the past.  The argument was never about the cost - it was about the fact that people like Martin cannot live in France legally by any means except getting a job or waiting until they get to UK state retirement age.  This is the reason why so many go back and forth and why some are forced to have second homes rather then commiting all their capital and spending money to France. 

I know that many of these people are well off and can cope, but I also believe that their resentment is understandable - they do feel as though France doesn't want them under any circumstances so it should come as no surprise if they take their money elsewhere.  And others, even if they are as rich as Croesus, can't live here anyway by any means because they are ill or have a medical condition.  I know that there are people far worse off, and that owning a second home probably means that you can afford more - I'm all for redistribution of excess wealth butthe problem with discretionary spending is that at least some of these people will spend it outside France now.  Others who still want to comit to this country or who cannot sell due to the property slump, will cut the amount they spend here even further. 

Either way, it is short-sighted legislation. It's discriminatory and economically questionable.

[thepenofmyaunt]

@Tony in 24

We have a house in France which we can't sell. We lived in it for 5 years until circumstances meant that we had to move back to the UK.

The house is rented out long-term while we live in a small rented cottage in the UK. The rental from our house in France does not even cover our costs and it is unlikely we will make any profit if we do eventually sell.

Please do not assume that every non-resident who has a house in France is rich. When this tax comes in it may well be absolutely devastating for us.

[woolybanana]

Sarkozy does not give a fig!

[Pickles]

[quote user="thepenofmyaunt"]@Tony in 24

We have a house in France which we can't sell. We lived in it for 5 years until circumstances meant that we had to move back to the UK.

The house is rented out long-term while we live in a small rented cottage in the UK. The rental from our house in France does not even cover our costs and it is unlikely we will make any profit if we do eventually sell.

Please do not assume that every non-resident who has a house in France is rich. When this tax comes in it may well be absolutely devastating for us.[/quote]

If your property is let out long-term, then it is not for your exclusive use and is therefore not subject to the new tax.

Regards

Pickles

[f1steveuk]

I've read every post, and in summary it appears to be a "planned" tax, with so many ambiguous variations, it doesn't seem to have been planned out as much as "happened".

My concern is, I "live" in France. The only property I own is in France (in the UK I stay with my in laws), but I earn my money,( which every penny of, is transfered into my French bank account), in the UK, which under EU reg's is ok. I can see a few test cases on this.

[Quillan]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1390000/Britons-holiday-homes-France-face-tax-Sarkozy-looks-raise-cash.html

and

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/property/propertyinfrance/8529230/British-holiday-homeowners-in-France-to-be-hit-by-new-tax.html

 

[cooperlola]

I just love some of the figures in those articles!  I don't know about the second home owners on this forum, but the idea that a "typical" home owned by a Brit is worth £350k is laughable.  Mine's worth about a third of that.  Don't know about yours?  An object lesson in stirring up feelings against those who've chosen to have homes outside the UK.  Sometimes I feel as though I've moved to a leper colony.

[just john]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1390000/Britons-holiday-homes-France-face-tax-Sarkozy-looks-raise-cash.html

never mind the article, just look at his photo[:-))]

[cooperlola]

[quote user="just john "]

, just look at his photo[:-))]

[/quote]Er.. Thanks but no thanks.  Very kind of you and all that but...