2012 Tax Declaration - Private Pensions and Government Pensions

[Laurier]

Hi Parsnips

Have been following your advice on filling in the form. I wasn't aware that there was a 10% abattement on the OAP pension. How is this allowed?

Thanks

Laurier

[parsnips]

[quote user="Laurier"]

Hi Parsnips

Have been following your advice on filling in the form. I wasn't aware that there was a 10% abattement on the OAP pension. How is this allowed?

Thanks

Laurier

[/quote]

Hi,

     This is taken off by the tax office , you don't have to do anything -it will be shown on the tax "avis".  It is available for all pensions PROVIDED you also have the state "OAP".

[Laurier]

Hi

Thanks - that's absolutely great, didn't know about that at all.

Laurier

[papillon13]

Hi

Thanks for your help parsnips :)

But there is this other tax declaration question I have, what do I do regarding unit trusts/capital income? Which sometimes is just capital and sometimes makes a profit?

[parsnips]

[quote user="papillon13"]Hi

Thanks for your help parsnips :)

But there is this other tax declaration question I have, what do I do regarding unit trusts/capital income? Which sometimes is just capital and sometimes makes a profit?[/quote]

Hi,

       You only declare gains on unit trusts when either they issue a dividend and you declare on 2047 page 2 sec A, and 2042 page 3 box DC;  or when you sell units , when you declare the part of the withdrawal which represents a gain over the purchase price .   These are declared on 2042 page 3 sec 3 "plus values" .  You should also declare any losses as they can be set against future gains for 10 years.

[lyndros]

Here is a written response that I have now had from the Vannes tax office, which settles the matter of how a "Government Pension" should be declared on Forms 2042 and 2047 (at least in Vannes!!!!).

Monsieur,

Suite à votre passage dans nos bureaux concernant les modalités de la

déclaration des revenus au titre de l'année 2011,

je vous  prie de trouver ci dessous,  les informations nécessaires

pour  retranscrire  vos pensions émanant du royaume uni .

1) Sur la déclaration des revenus 2042,  vous devez porter  cadre I en

ligne 1AS le montant total  de  vos retraites  et au cadre 8

en ligne 8TK le montant imposable de la retraite de fonctionnaire, le

cas échéant,

2) Sur la déclaration rose 2047, vous devez porter cadre I la totalité

de vos pensions  et,  le  cas échéant,  la retraite de fonctionnaire

au cadre VI de cette même déclaration .

I hope that this helps everybody.

 

[NormanH]

Sounds as if they are all singing from the same Psalter[:)] at last

[Boiling a frog]

We did tell you

[NormanH]

Yes. Last year too, and it was wrong then for my area[:)]

As I said check for yourself.

[headinclouds]

Very useful spreadsheet Norman, thanks for that.  However, I'm a little confused by the result it has given me in our situation.  I believe the tax threshold in France this year below which we would not pay tax is around 21k (65yrs+) but the spreadsheet shows a liability to pay some tax although our income is slightly below this figure.

I have a horrible feeling I'm missing something, but can anyone clarify the level of the thresholds set for income tax purposes.

[NormanH]

The various tax bands should be clear from the spreadsheet

6088

12146

26975

Don't forget that there is a 10% reduction for  earned or pension income (the spreadsheet allows for that)

I don't know where your figure of " tax threshold in France this year below which we would not pay tax is around 21k (65yrs+)" comes from.

It also depends on the proportion of your income taxable in France.

For example if it is all local government ( with a consequent tax credit) or in part OAP which will attract some French tax.

In entering your details don't forget to indicate how many 'parts' you have. (line 10)

For example a single person has 1, but a couple has 2.

[headinclouds]

Here's the link to where I saw this theoretical 'threshold'.  http://www.french-property.com/guides/france/finance-taxation/taxation/calculation-tax-liability/rates/

"We show below the income levels for 2012, for income earned in 2011 that trigger liability to French income tax for different types of household. If your income is below these figures, then you will not be liable to French income tax.

The figures are shown by marital status and age, and by household size ('parts') and type of income."

There is a higher level for over 65s shown in the last box. 

[NormanH]

You might prefer to use the official calculator

http://www3.finances.gouv.fr/calcul_impot/2012/simplifie/index.htm

since the baremes I used for the spreadsheet seem different to those given by the Impôts.

http://www.impots.gouv.fr/portal/dgi/public/popup;jsessionid=P45HUC2IF5SLVQFIEIPSFEY?espId=&typePage=cpr02&docOid=documentstandard_6182

I revised upwards them last year from a different spreadsheet that was checked by several people and found to be OK

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuTBbphDzPcwdFlMX2l0cDdUQXUwYnFKVkQycWc2a1E&hl=en_US#gid=0

(the thread can be found here:http://services.completefrance.com/forums/completefrance/cs/forums/26/2517870/ShowPost.aspx#2517870)

I

didn't invent these new

baremes, but I have to assume that they were revised since the first

publication at the end of 2011

The best one to use for this year is now here

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuTBbphDzPcwdFlMX2l0cDdUQXUwYnFKVkQycWc2a1E

You would need to enter any allowances you think you are entitled to yourselves.

On the other hand I don't see how the rates table at http://www.french-property.com/guides/france/finance-taxation/taxation/calculation-tax-liability/rates/

can so confidently give definite levels below which you are not liable for French tax, since the amount of tax varies according to the source and composition of the income.

For example someone whose sole income is from a Local Government pension  of 20000€ would get a tax credit equal to the French tax due, and so not be liable to pay tax.

Another person with a local Government pension of 15000 and an OAP of 5000€  (so the same total) would find that the 5000 is taxable in France in the band that goes from 11896 to 26420, i.e at 14%, although there would be a tax credit for the 15000

My spreadsheet takes this into account, but as afar as I can see the tables above don't.

You can try using it with the same total income, but composed differently if you want to see what I mean.

[headinclouds]

I hear what you say, Norman, and a big thanks for the info you have provided.  It is not that I don't find the spreadsheet credible, when so many on this link and previous ones agree with your take on the calculations, it's just that there is so much conflicting info out there!  Last year (our first tax return over here) we paid someone (a french ex tax office worker) to do the return for us.  We ended up not paying any tax for 2010, which was great, but according to the spreadsheet we should have - albeit a small contribution.  I have asked via eamil for the lady to explain how she calculated our liability, but we have not received a reply and she is not doing this work anymore.

Anyway, I am about to fill in our return for 2011 - I will look at the links you have provided, and with the info contributed on this forum I think we shouldn't go too far wrong.  We have put money by according to your spreadsheet calculation.

[JohnFB]

If it was a small enough amount it would have been cancelled by the decote. Sums below a certain amount, can't remember how much, are not collected.

rgds JFB

[NormanH]

[quote user="headinclouds"]

I hear what you say, Norman, and a big thanks for the info you have provided.  It is not that I don't find the spreadsheet credible, when so many on this link and previous ones agree with your take on the calculations, it's just that there is so much conflicting info out there!  Last year (our first tax return over here) we paid someone (a french ex tax office worker) to do the return for us.  We ended up not paying any tax for 2010, which was great, but according to the spreadsheet we should have - albeit a small contribution.  I have asked via eamil for the lady to explain how she calculated our liability, but we have not received a reply and she is not doing this work anymore.

Anyway, I am about to fill in our return for 2011 - I will look at the links you have provided, and with the info contributed on this forum I think we shouldn't go too far wrong.  We have put money by according to your spreadsheet calculation.

[/quote]

Don't forget there is no age allowance on the spreadsheet.

When it was made I intended it to be for those with Local Gov Pensions to understand the new system, and I omitted the Age allowance in error [:$]

This could well explain the difference, sorry..

[betty]

My local tax office advised that UK state pensions must be placed at 2047 VI as JohnRoss has correctly pointed out.

I see some posts talk about placing the amounts in 2047 VII which is incorrect.

Apparently this was changed from VII to VI last year just to keep us on our toes.

Sorry if this error has already been mentioned in an earlier post.

[JohnRoss]

One of the problems highlighted by posts both here and in other places is

the confusion caused with French tax inspectors using expressions such as

Pension d'Etat, Pension publique and retraite de fonctionnaire and us using

State pension, Govt pension and Private pension and so as has been suggested it

might be better to include extra information like State Pension i.e. Old age

Pension and Govt pension (2047 VI) for a Retired teacher or Civil servant

etc........................JR

[lif]

We have used an accountant to complete our tax form for the past few years but he has let us down this year & I'm trying to work out what he has done in the past so I can complete the form for 2011

My wife has both a Government & a State pension both of which are taxed in the UK, I can find in section VII on form 2047 where he has declared the Government pension but can't find anywhere where the State pension has been declared, did he just leave off the State Pension because it had already been taxed?

Can someone explain in simple terms what I enter where? please

[NormanH]

If by state pension you mean the OAP it is not taxed in the UK

[lif]

[quote user="NormanH"]If by state pension you mean the OAP it is not taxed in the UK[/quote]

I've just re-read her PAYE coding notice & they have reduced her personal allowance by the amount of her State pension ie:

Your personal allowance    £7475

State Pension                     -£4964

A tax free amount              £2511

We turn £2511 into tax code 251L to send to Teachers Pensions.

So while the state pension isn't taxed, it comes off her personal allowance.

It still raises the question of what do I put into what box?

[JohnRoss]

The same thing has happened to me this year but the tax faqs and posts earlier

on in this thread and last year, see http://services.completefrance.com/forums/completefrance/cs/forums/2517870/ShowPost.aspx

are correct as far as I know. I have sent a communication twice about this to

HMRC and each time they promised a reply within 10 working days but nothing from

them so far. Went through all this with them when we came here in 2001 and again

when I turned 65 but for some reason they don't find records of past

communications. The last time they said something about having replaced their

computers. I won't say what I think of them, not printable! But in brief Govt

(Teachers pensions) are now included with other pensions for tax purposes in

France as from last year but a credit is given for the govt pension and HMRC

should not tax old age pensions for folk resident in France either directly or

by fiddling with the tax code for the teachers pension. All explained in the

earlier posts..............................JR

[NormanH]

Why don't people bother to use the search function before asking questions that regular posters have already spent hours answering?

[lif]

I did try a search but couldn't find an answer that fitted my situation.

I am rather concerned that the accountant I used (who only told me last Friday that he was too busy to do this years return) had not included the state (OAP) pension in the last 3 years returns.

Although that does line up with what I was told at our local tax office official 4 or 5 years ago who completed the return for us & when he saw the P60 didn't include any of it.

[NormanH]

Surely this post from earlier in the thread answers your question

Simple process for you to follow:

Total of All pensions go into box 1AS 

Govt pension goes into box 8TK (minus the OAP)