Case studies needed ?

[YCCMB]

£150k won't buy you a studio flat where I live. ??

[woolybanana]

Is Bradford so expensive??

[alittlebitfrench]

[quote user="woolybanana"]Is Bradford so expensive??[/quote]

No

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-65354068.html

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-58913041.html

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-53583804.html

You will not get that quality for money around ere...

150K = grim (very grim) flat where I live.

What is wrong with Bradford ?

France is more expensive than the UK...FACT !

[EuroTrash]

There isn't much at that price round here, but if you are prepared to spend a little less you could have this

https://www.ouestfrance-immo.com/immobilier/vente/maison/alencon-61-61001/12658769.htm

[Liffy99]

Allotment = personal use. You may be thinking of a smallholding.

Some great, and very varied replies in this thread so many thanks, but as expected, giving very different opinions, except that there is no doubt things have changed significantly over the past few years.

As for the S1, which I assumed would have meant no cotisisations payable for healthcare, just the mutuelle top up costs - is this now a non starter and is being removed ?

I think what I need is a spreadsheet so I can work out;

A) what is classed as income

B) what are classed as assets

C) what is taxable (income and capital gains)

D) what is subject to social security payments

E) even if not taxable, what is counted for SS liabilities

F) thresholds and limits and tax and SS percentages

G) what is taxed in France or the UK

H) anything else I’ve not thought of

Does such a thing exist ? I can start making one if its possible to post it on this form. Would then welcome any comments and suggestions etc.

As for regions / weather etc well, there must be something about the SW otherwise why would it be the region of choice for so many. My twopennorth;

Brittany, Normandy, Picardie, Vosges - not much diff. To UK

Eastern France, the Jura and Alps, Auvergne - too cold in winter

Loire, Burgundy and Centre - things start to change, warmer all round

SW - nice balance of shorter winters and warm summers

Provence, Languedoc etc - too hot in summer

Weve been to most of these areas ( exc. Alps and Alsace) but never in winter (March in the Auvergne closest we have got to that, and still snow on the ground). Cycled from St Malo to Bergerac, up and down the Lot and Tarn, all around Brittany and Creuse. Liked it all.

As for house sizes, we have viewed 10 over past two weeks, most bigger than we expected (a couple just far too big, especially barns) for €200 - €300k but the usual story of right house / wrong location etc. Now looking at reducing the budget a bit to find something a bit smaller perhaps.

Probably back later in the year to fine tune our search . . .

[suein56]

Liffy99 wrote : As for house sizes, we have viewed 10 over past two weeks ..

Good for you .. I cannot imagine how many I/we looked at over the years before we finally bought a house. The only difference being that OH and I had by then moved here and had rented. This gave us both knowledge of day to day life, experience of the costs and customs and freedom to change area if we found that we had not made the right choice for us.

Like you we travelled extensively throughout a lot of France before we sold in the UK.

Afterwards, even having chosen an area, it took 6 years before we found a house to buy .. lots of lovely houses, almost right but either wrong location or way too expensive. Mind you the house we rented was great and influenced many of our decisions.

Good luck.

[alittlebitfrench]

OP said:

"As for regions / weather etc well, there must be something about the SW otherwise why would it be the region of choice for so many".

It is the 'regions' of choice because it has the cheapest property prices in France and.... Ryanair fly there LOL. Nothing to do with weather, because the weather is the same everywhere else.

The more important question you have to ask yourself is, 'why does SW have the cheapest property in France' ? Is it a good idea to invest/move to poorer regions ?

When it comes to weather, one of the most important things for me is seasons. I like the seasons. I want a spring, summer, autumn and winter. You won't get that everywhere in France.

Also, it will feel colder if the region/village/town is economically depressed. You would feel warmer in a ski resort in winter even if temperatures are 10 degrees lower.

It is all in 'ones' head this hot and cold business.

Don't move to a region for the weather. Move because you want to leave there.

[EuroTrash]

Confused now because at one stage you said you were an early retiree several years away from pension age but looking back, your first post seems to imply that you are already on state pensions.

Re the S1, an S1 available to pensioners and a different kind of S1 is available to cross border workers and posted workers who meet the appropriate criteria, but the time-limited "residuary S1" that used to be available to early retirees was withdrawn in 2007 or thereabouts.

[EuroTrash]

"I think what I need is a spreadsheet so I can work out;

A) what is classed as income

B) what are classed as assets

C) what is taxable (income and capital gains)

D) what is subject to social security payments

E) even if not taxable, what is counted for SS liabilities

F) thresholds and limits and tax and SS percentages

G) what is taxed in France or the UK

H) anything else I’ve not thought of "

That sounds the wrong way round to me. Trying to put the whole of French fiscal law and the DTA provisions onto a spreadsheet would take forever and be a bit like painting the Forth bridge because the rules are not set in stone and things keep changing.

Would it not make more sense to go through your income, list all different revenue streams you have, and then check on the various government websites to see how that particular source of income is treated under the current rules?

There is a choice of two online simulators (click on Simplified or Complete depending on your revenue streams) here

https://www3.impots.gouv.fr/simulateur/calcul_impot/2018/index.htm

It's basically like filling a tax form in. If you go through it box by box and enter all your household income in the appropriate box, it will tell you exactly what income tax you will pay. And it will be good practice for the annual tax exercise if you do decide to move ;-)

[pomme]

Liffy, Have you read all the guides on taxation, retiring to France, etc which are available on this web site e.g. these on tax ?

Both assets and income taxed in France are those worldwide but there are many covered by the double taxation treaty so you are not taxed twice.

One tax which I don't think has been mentioned earlier is the French French Impôt sur la fortune immobilière (IFI) which may impact some people with property assets in both France and the UK? The French Government know about French property purchase prices and price inflation thereafter. I just wonder whether they will begin asking those with foreign property rental income to start to declare addresses/values even if the total is below the current IFI level? The IFI is going to bring in a lot less tax than the old wealth tax so they may start looking around more to check for possible avoidance (UK property purchase prices are publicly available)

[EuroTrash]

ALBF wrote: "Don't move to a region for the weather. Move because you want to live there."

I "so" agree with that. Nobody moves to Normandy for the sunshine (although it is actually very sunny at the moment). I moved here because I knew from spending months touring France in a motorhome that I felt at home here and the people are friendly and the landscape is green and peaceful and relaxing, and I love the architecture (and OK, property is cheap). Whenever I feel the need for a fix of blue skies and hot sun, chirping crickets, sand and sea, whatever, it's just a cruise down the motorway from here to le Sud, or the Sud-Ouest or wherever. And eventually, after a week or a month of baking heat, I've had enough and I'm ready to come home.

[Doodle]

We are early retired and have not worked (intentionally) whilst in France. I have an 'at a glance' chart and the figures shown below are the averages for over 10 years. Our yearly bills have been roughly 9500 euros that covers everything except household emergencies ie hot water tank replacement etc. Our health insurance which varies according to income each year averages at 400 euros per yr. Top up health insurance averages at 1270 per yr. Prelevement Sociales a form of tax which have to be paid has averaged out over 10 years at 700 per yr. We don't pay income tax at the moment as we don't have enough income but in a couple of years time when one of us collects UK state pension we will then be paying Income Tax. We may or may not after Brexit have to pay Prelevement Sociales on our pension income as we would be entitled to the S1 however it is still payable on interest which for us is minimal anyway. EDF 1350 per yr plus wood and believe me we are not always warm & cosy in our small stone house. I have not mentioned the insurance for house & cars, nor the Habitation which is being phased out for some according to income, nor the Fonciere, nor phone contract but all of which are included in the yearly 9500 euros. Hopefully this is of some help to you.

Mrs KG

[Judith]

Speaking from experience, the SW can be wet and damp. And this year even the Languedoc has not (yet) been hot ... we've seen more rain and cloud than ever.

So the weather is not the best reason to choose ... the SW is popular because the scenery looks much like the nice bits of England do.

[EuroTrash]

Well somebody has to ask it, so I will... Why do people move to another country to find scenery that looks like the country they wanted to leave?

[richard51]

Eurotrash - perhaps because they like the scenery that much.

The area in SW france where we have our house in is slightly undulating terrain rather than flat or mountainous - it suites us.

Weather is also better for us in SW France - especially when compared to north of the Watford gap - its certainly different.

Perhaps it would be better to ask why people go to Northern France rather than Southern England -pretty much the same in lots of respects. I will await the pretty obvious differences being spouted out that justify living in Dover rather than Calais!

Reading threads on here, without posting for a while, is quite amusing - not ET, but posts by some people (not only the obvious) really do give the impression that their opinion is the only one possible - and its amusing (perhaps worrying) how making/having money seems to be so sought after - what has happened to the mantra of paying tax that is due!

Mrs KG, you are a breath of fresh air on here. Your post is most informative and what this thread is all about.

OP - I'm backing both sides - go for it , but be careful if you do.

Was going to correct living in Dover compared to Calais, but, hey, perhaps not.

NB ET advice spot on also.

[alittlebitfrench]

So, is it Dover or Calais for you Richard51 ?

It is quite a good point that !!!

Eymet or Blackburn ? LOL.

Personally, I would go Calais and Blackburn.

[richard51]

I have houses in both Northern UK and SW France.

From previous posts on the topic I know that you are married to a french person. Do you have any say in the matter? Is there other compelling reasons why you are where you are?

Making it personal rather than suggesting its *factual* will be more informative.

NB My house in the north of the UK is in an area a bit like Kensington in London- relatively expensive compared to the poorer area not a couple of km away. I'm not proud of that though and doesn't make me rich - same as most others.

[Liffy99]

Well, here we are on the Barfleur back to Poole and the UK after seeing 10 houses and driving 2000 miles. Shattered !

To clarify previous posts I am an ‘early retiree’ (61 and 5 years from state retirement) but my wife is 64 and qualifies for her state pension.

Clearly, I need to do more research. I have looked at the French tax return but my language is not good enough to fully understand it. I know noone can rewrite an interactive English version but has anyone translated the form to act as a crib sheet. Even then I assume I would have already decided what to do with certain assets such as tax free ISAs etc (can I leave them in the UK and ignore them for instance ?).

Somwill try and get my head around income tax, cotisasations, social security etc as they seem so interlinked. And especially how to access healthcare due to prior conditions and dont want to abandon help with.

As for the weather being the same everywhere - well I certainly didn’t notice any olive groves up here in Normandy, nor saw any struggling fields of barley in Languedoc ! There is a reason for going south of the Loire. May not be Spanish levels of heat and sunshine but thats not what we want - just something a bit milder with a longer growing season. The one thing I really noriced on our drive back north from the Dordogne was the gradual disappearance of wildflower meadows and verges. The Loire and Mayenne were lovely and green, like parts of England, but the colour had gone.

Thanks especially to Mrs KG, a stab at some factual info. i crave and I will go add up all my UK bills to compare.

Ah well, will probably get home to a speeding fine (a camera took me by surprise on the way down - one of those quick 90 to 70 changes methinks . . . )

[suein56]

Liffy99 wrote : I assume I would have already decided what to do with certain assets such as tax free ISAs etc (can I leave them in the UK and ignore them for instance ?).

Delends on what kind of Isas you have .. ours house investment trusts and other kinds of funds .. but no you cannot ignore them .. as you need to declare your income from them on your French tax return or declare any capital gain from their sale.

Upside is you can keep them with no bother .. as long as you declare any income,

Downside is, as you will no longer be a uk resident, then you can no more put any new investment in an Isa wrapper.

[andyh4]

A few comments

Healthcare:

Your wife will be entitled to an S1 providing healthcare in France - which is generally 70% of the costs. The remainder being up to you or paid through a mutuelle or insurance policy.

As a dependent spouse you may be entitled to piggy-back onto her S1 until you retire and get one in your own right. This is what I did, but the rules keep changing. The NHS website makes no mention that I can find, but other websites say it is possible.

Climate

You have mentioned warmer weather in a couple of posts. Beware; in most of France winters are very much colder than the UK. We typically enjoy winters where the daytime high may stay below minus ten for as much as a week. A bit extreme perhaps since although we are as far South as Bordeaux we live rather high up, but you should take note. We don't have a longer growing season as a consequence - but we do have olive trees - albeit in pots that we can bring in (olives are frost hardy down to below minus ten.)

Tax

If you can legally still keep your ISA when living permanently abroad, you will still have to declare any profits on your French tax forms - and be taxed on them (not covered by the double taxation treaty). You might look at transferring the money and taking out equivalent tax free investments in France such as a Livret A - although interest rates are poor at present. You should probably take professional advice since I doubt anyone here is sufficiently expert to give definitive advice.

Translation of tax forms would be a Forth Bridge painting job since the rules change and the forms also on a regular basis. There is lots of advice on forums of what goes where on the forms and you can do an online simulation of your tax affairs.

[EuroTrash]

I believe the Connexion (spit) publishes a guide to the tax forms each year. Everything you read in the Connexion should be taken with a large pinch of salt, and it has been known for the tax guide to contain errors, but you would probably find it very helpful as long as you don't rely on it 100%. You can probably purchase the 2018 guide.

If/when you move, you'll find your local French tax offices very helpful. They will give you good advice and explain things and help you fill your form in, so there is no need to stress about that. But I realise your concern at the moment is to know what to expect before making your decisions.

@andyh4 - Four years ago I took an olive tree in a pot back to the UK as a gift for a friend in Wales. Last I heard, it was thriving - though not producing olives.

[EuroTrash]

"my wife is 64 and qualifies for her state pension"

NOMB but I'm struggling with the maths here.

64 = born around 1954 so surely pension age is at least 65, no?

[YCCMB]

Women born between March 54 and March 55 qualify for state pension during their 64th year. Those born in Jan/Feb 54 qualify during their 63rd.

[Cathar Tours]

I am off home from visiting my dad today who lives in the Languedoc. It's been raining every 24 hours since October, sometime for days on end and like yesterday five minutes of light rain but rain is what it was.

The OP said "green" and there in lays the clue, things don't turn green without rain, the greener it is the more rain you get.

His winters could be -15 to -17 (his coldest) with August peaking out at just over 40 deg however that has change a lot in the last five years. Now winter temperatures struggle to get below -1 to -3 and summer hasn't hit 40 for a while either. The summers have also got shorter. At the moment only one day in the next 10 is marked as rain free. 80% of France is on flood and/or thunderstorm alert today.

However the biggest issue for you will be healthcare. I understand what you meant about your wife getting her S1 although some take it literally you meant by the time you move she will be 65 and eligible.

Nobody know what will happen with those of an S1. Being as it is a EU form and is exchangeable across the whole of the EU it may cease to exist for Expats when they UK leaves.

Some will say the French will not stop you from accessing their healthcare via an S1 in the future, some will say that the French will allow those already in the system to continue and others will say it will be the end of health cover unless you pay as you go or get private health insurance. Thing is there are a lot of French people living and working in the UK and a lot of how the French will deal with Expats will depend on how their people are treated in the UK.

For tax use the link somebody gave you and use Google Chrome to browse. You can then use the built in translator to translate on the fly. It will even translate and print into English.

[suein56]

Cathar Tours wrote : For tax use the link somebody gave you and use Google Chrome to browse. You can then use the built in translator to translate on the fly. It will even translate and print into English.

Good point :-) .. I wish I had thought of it.

Andyh4 wrote : You might look at transferring the money and taking out equivalent tax free investments in France such as a Livret A - although interest rates are poor at present.

Parsnips pointed towards French Assurance Vie(s) - which is/are vaguely similar to an Isa wrapper.

You can invest simply in their equivalent of an Isa as a savings account - though it is more for long term savings.

Of more interest - literally - is buying 'funds' within the assurance vie wrapper - similar to the investment funds within an Isa in the UK. Those I have bought have performed very well.

You can have Assur. Vie with different companies at the same time .. Fortuneo, Linxea, BforBank, Generali amongst others.

A significant point is that the money there-in is not considered to be part of your estate for inheritance purposes so can be left to whoever you please.