An NHS of which we can proud?

[Mr Ice-ni]

Cut from an e-mail I received this morning from a close friend

"My brother in law is not really making good progress.  He seems to be having setbacks and it feels as if no one knows what to do.  He spent 4 hours in A @ E the other evening having not passed urine for 48 hours.  The pain must have been awful.  while the staff were deciding what to do he flooded the department and my sister was given some tissues to clean the floor and gave him a hospital gown to go home in.  They got home at one o clock in the morning without anyone deciding why he had the retention in the first place.  Poor man's dignity has just flown out of the window. "

Doubtless the staff will claim extenuating circumstances - perhaps the week's compassion target had already been achieved?

John

 

[YCCMB]

Sorry for the person involved. It is, indeed, awful.

But why do you want an NHS of which you, who don't live in the UK, can be proud? People living away from the UK only want to "be proud" of the NHS when they come across a publicised horror story, or when they or a family member or friend has a bad experience. The rest of the time, surely, you don't give a damn, because you have the wonderful French health service, where mistakes never happen and all is bright and beautiful? Or maybe you're just deeply altrusitic?

[Russethouse]

[quote user="Mr Ice-ni"]

Cut from an e-mail I received this morning from a close friend

"My brother in law is not really making good progress.  He seems to be having setbacks and it feels as if no one knows what to do.  He spent 4 hours in A @ E the other evening having not passed urine for 48 hours.  The pain must have been awful.  while the staff were deciding what to do he flooded the department and my sister was given some tissues to clean the floor and gave him a hospital gown to go home in.  They got home at one o clock in the morning without anyone deciding why he had the retention in the first place.  Poor man's dignity has just flown out of the window. "

Doubtless the staff will claim extenuating circumstances - perhaps the week's compassion target had already been achieved?

John

 

[/quote]

  Without being there its hard to say, unless its in the remainder of the email, one has to wonder how proactive the wife was? Further more there does seem to be an attitude among  some people that they just accept everything the Doctor says without question, and this is nothing to do with class or ignorance. 

I once got a phone call from the hospital to say my son was there and could I collect him, he'd had too much to drink and basically his 'mates' had left him in a puddle outside the place where the gig was (he was a teenager). When I arrived it was obvious he was not well enough to take home so I refused, as it turned out he had mild hypothermia. As he was over 6ft and I'm shorter I doubt I could have managed him, he couldn't stand unaided.

I also made it very clear that I was not taking my mother home until she had recovered when she was ill. On neither occasion was I rude or unpleasant, I just refused to be bullied into doing something against my better judgement

 Could there be more to this story ?

[NickP]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]Sorry for the person involved. It is, indeed, awful.

But why do you want an NHS of which you, who don't live in the UK, can be proud? People living away from the UK only want to "be proud" of the NHS when they come across a publicised horror story, or when they or a family member or friend has a bad experience. The rest of the time, surely, you don't give a damn, because you have the wonderful French health service, where mistakes never happen and all is bright and beautiful? Or maybe you're just deeply altrusitic?
[/quote]

Well said Betty, the NHS has done me and my family proud. By the same token we have had good treatment from the French system when it was needed. Unfortunately only the horror stories seem to get publicised. OK the case in point was awful in the extreme, but I'm sure that there is more to the storey than has been explained. And if you are fit enough to get to the A&E surely you are fit enough to ask where the toilet is?

[idun]

This as opposed to me on a bed in a corridor in France, yes, LBF, for over 12 hours and hardly anyone came to check on me and no buzzers ofcourse. I stopped a nurse and said I needed the toilet urgently and she said she would be back. She was half an hour later finding me crying and lying in my own liquid diarrea in front of one of my son's friends the smell horrific, And then she shouted at me and tutted and kept kept on telling me off. Made me get off the bed, which I could not do unaided, what with the sides up and the drip, so it went all over the floor and all down my legs and along the corridor.

Just what I needed when I was feeling so ill. And then Nurse Rachet at around midnight when they eventually decided to keep me in, forcing the needle back into my hand for the drip, again and again and again, as Madame was not satisfied that it was in right. I screamed the first time and she just kept on.

 

Yes, nurses, well, there are those that care and those that do not and my stay in that hospital for the following 10 days continued in exactly the same vain, it was horrific. Yes, LBF and that is the first time I could bring myself to say all that, it was so awful.

 

 

[Sprogster]

I can give you several similar stories of experiences I am aware from friends with the French health service, involving misdiagnosis, arrogant French Consultants, poor cancer care, serious hospital acquired infections and long waits in A&E as the norm. A neighbour of ours almost died after a seriously swollen leg was diagnosed initially as an insect bit, eventually when they got back to A &E with their leg the size of an elephant's, it was eventually correctly dianosed as a serious life threatening thrombosis after a four wait to see a D and required three weeks hospitalisation . (The French Doctor was furious my friend had to wait so long, but it is not unusual in provincial and city French hospitals these days.) Which shows you can have bad experiences anywhere.. 

[pachapapa]

It's only a storey, i am sure their are worse storeys.[:P]

And with a lift one gets quicker frrom one storey to another storey but not in france where the lifts dont work.[I]

[idun]

Sprogster, I have spent many hours in A&E's in France due to my sprog's sporting injuries. We were never ever seen in less than four hours and often far longer and that was over the last 20 odd years in a french city. My youngest is a casse tete, although it wasn't usually his 'head' we were in with, well only once, after making a bogey with our GP's son that went out of control.

However, when it was me, I was ill most of the night at home, just severe pain, IMO worse than labour, and went in at around 6.30 and was seen immediately. Had an ultrasound by 8 and then was put in a corridor. At around 22 hours I had a cat scan and then at around midnight they kept me in.

[NormanH]

I have had good and bad treatment in both countries, but France doesn't have the Bullingdon bullies with a visceral distaste for the Welfare State pushing through changes against the advice of the majority of the service, although it is rapidly developing a two-speed system as well.

[Quillan]

NHS, what a subject to talk about and always ensures a lively discussion..

I was watching 'Carry on Doctor' at the weekend which with a very long gape between the two occasions I used the NHS as a inpatient is much as how I remember it from the old days. One of the biggest problems these days it seems to me is that it is continuously 'tinkered with' by politicians who end up making a right cods of it leaving the next lot to sort it out who often believe they can improve on things as well and so we get trapped in this cycle. Being keen to show they can produce results has to me de-personalised nursing in particular with more emphasis on meeting targets than patient care.

The biggest problem facing the NHS is spiraling costs, not just in things costing more but because people live longer etc and the truth of the matter is the money being spent on the NHS is much greater than the money being gathered through tax and NI. I would like to see a couple of things. Firstly I would like the NI to be exactly what the name implies and what it was when it first came in to use namely an insurance policy you pay in to for medical care when you need it. It should be run as such either by the government or another, non profit, organisation. I know it's a touchy subject but secondly I think immigrants who arrive and do not contribute should not be allowed to use it. If they do use then, like in France, they would be obliged by law to take out private health insurance. If they are not in the system by means of contributing, don't have or can't afford private health insurance then they should politely be blocked from entering the country.

The NHS will, like health services in just about every country, always run in the red but pouring more and more money (other than for equipment etc) is just like pushing £50 notes down the shower plughole with your big toe as fast as you can. Perhaps with better legislation on how the money is raised the control of the NHS should be taken away from the government and placed with a group who know about health care.

What Betty said is true, we only ever hear about the failures and the incompetence of the NHS, we don't hear the good news. Everyone has a bad story to tell but seldom do they mention when they have excellent service. It is important to 'positively stroke' when things go well.

Some of these stories, like Johns friend, are not new and have been happening for years. My cousin 25 years ago nearly got his leg plastered because the doctor had picked up the wrong xrays made even worse by the fact they were for a girl and he, my cousin, was holding his broken wrist. My father was chastised for leaving blood on the floor in A&E (Kingston upon Thames) having cut his finger on some glass and left to wait hours which is why you can't blame a particular government as its been going on for years.

Of course the crux of the original question was can we be proud of the NHS well in many ways yes but in it's current form those days may be drawing to an end in the not too distant future.

Hope your friend gets the right treatment and wish him a speed recovery.

[PaulT]

I work for an NHS Trust and the A&E at one of our hospitals was refurbished.

Before the ambulance arrivals were wheeled through the waiting room. The redesign has a deciated ambulance entrance, i.e. ambulance stretchers no longer go through the waiting room.

The staff find that this generates complaints from those waiting in the waiting room - before they saw the state of those arriving by ambulance who clearly required immediate attention whilst they waited with a boil on their bum (and yes they get people in A&E with extremely trivial problems). Now they are unaware of the ambulance patients arriving and hence moan about any wait.

My advice though, if you are not happy with the service write directly to the CEO.

Paul

[Hoddy]

I'm just back from an appointment at the orthopaedic department of our local hospital. I was seen on time and everyone was courteous and helpful.

While waiting outside for my OH to pick me up another woman was wheeled out in a chair to wait for the ambulance. She was clearly 'having a turn' of some kind and the man pushing the chair said that he wasn't prepared to let her go home in that condition. He sent someone back into the department to get her notes and took her directly to A & E. All done quietly and efficiently with the least alarm possible caused to the patient. I was very impressed.

Hoddy

[breizh]

France spends 11.8% of GDP on healthcare. UK spends 9.8%. http://www.oecd.org/document/16/0,3746,en_2649_33929_2085200_1_1_1_1,00.html

Either pay more tax, or go the French route of only state funding 70%, ie get a mutuelle. In healthcare, money talks.

However the tight fisted Brits want everything cheap[:D]

Though with all the media coverage of the huge numbers of families not able to afford mutuelles, but fall outside of the safety net, and the debts they incur, I doubt Brits would accept that. Then there is also the Dwarf and his theiving friends loading extra costs onto mutuelles, and big increases coming through in their costs in the next few years. Don't forget the French invented stealth taxes[:'(]

PS UK has exactly the same healthcare rules as France. As all the hoops my foreign (french/blued eyed/blonde)wife has to jump through, when we live in the UK, bear testimony. Or are the NHS just anti-french?

[Mr Ice-ni]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]Sorry for the person involved. It is, indeed, awful.

But why do you want an NHS of which you, who don't live in the UK, can be proud? People living away from the UK only want to "be proud" of the NHS when they come across a publicised horror story, or when they or a family member or friend has a bad experience. The rest of the time, surely, you don't give a damn, because you have the wonderful French health service, where mistakes never happen and all is bright and beautiful? Or maybe you're just deeply altrusitic?
[/quote]

I am English though I choose to live in France. My children and friends still live there, hence my interest. My personal experience of the NHS is that they didn't care much about me when I was flown back as a stretcher case, nor my wife when she was inside. Whereas we have both been treated well in France.

My best friend, a non-smoker currently dying  of lung cancer and complications in Suffolk, has also had poor treatment, the latest episode being a trip to ENT where-one knew why he had been called in nor even who had arranged the appt.

Doubtless similar cock-ups happen in France but I have no personal experience of them.

As for the suggestion implying that family etc should make more fuss, probably they should but why should they have to?

There will no hope for many patients of the NHS until Cameron et al work out how to employ people who care.

John

 

 

 

[idun]

Mr Ice-ni, you have lived in France long enough to understand rale'ing. I'm flabbergasted that you have said 'why should they have to'.  It has to be done everywhere where poor service is given. That is the way it is. And that is the only way poor service can be improved.

 

I did win a little battle in hospital, the nurses laughed at me, one of those nasty laughs, but at least with one thing, I did get my way.

[Russethouse]

As for the suggestion implying that family etc should make more fuss, probably they should but why should they have to?

Because they are Doctors and Nurses, not nannies! Common sense and the ability to discuss a situation shouldn't get lost the moment you enter a hospital. My questions and concerns have always met with sensible and usually re assuring answers, taking an active part in your care helps everyone concerned surely....maybe having a nursing sister and a pharmacist in the family  influenced my attitude

Hopefully the subject of this email has arranged a medical consultation today ?

[NickP]

[quote user="breizh"]

However the tight fisted Brits want everything cheap[:D]

[/quote]

That is an outrageous thing to say, I have paid my way under the system as it stands, and so have a lot of other people; we are entitled to what ever is necessary.  I don't expect any thing on the cheap, and when I'm in France I get what I'm entitled to; as does your "blue eyed blond" when she is in England. [:P]  

[Théière]

[quote user="Mr Ice-ni"]

As for the suggestion implying that family etc should make more fuss, probably they should but why should they have to?

There will no hope for many patients of the NHS until Cameron et al work out how to employ people who care.

John

[/quote]

You don't strike me as the sort of person not to make a fuss [:-))]

The NHS employs 1000's of people who care but when you have done the sort of shifts they have they to get worn out but that's another issue.

My next comment could be construed as racist as I reflect on the people who gave less thought and less care to patients around me but it's not meant that way as a lovely staff nurse who looked after me was not originally from this country and was as brilliant as possible, whereas others I observed coughed over medicines meant for immunocompromised patients, never washed their hands until it was their going home time and didn't have the usual duty of care. One in particular was an agency nurse not NHS. but at the end of the day there are ignorant people everywhere and even after additional training they are too thick to see they still are not carrying out the work to the correct requirements.

[Sprogster]

A very good point often overlooked is that the NHS is free at the point of delivery, whereas the French health care system is not, as only 70% of the costs are covered, leaving families having to pay for ever increasingly expensive private top up health insurance. Would the voters in the UK tolerate that by way of raising additional funding, as I doubt it?

[Patf]

[quote user="NickP"][quote user="breizh"]

However the tight fisted Brits want everything cheap[:D]

[/quote]

That is an outrageous thing to say, I have paid my way under the system as it stands, and so have a lot of other people; we are entitled to what ever is necessary.  I don't expect any thing on the cheap, and when I'm in France I get what I'm entitled to; as does your "blue eyed blond" when she is in England. [:P]  

[/quote]

I doubt that our contributions to the NHS when we were working will cover our health care until we die. I'm sure mine won't.

[breizh]

[quote user="NickP"][quote user="breizh"]

However the tight fisted Brits want everything cheap[:D]

[/quote]

That is an outrageous thing to say, I have paid my way under the system as it stands, and so have a lot of other people; we are entitled to what ever is necessary.  I don't expect any thing on the cheap, and when I'm in France I get what I'm entitled to; as does your "blue eyed blond" when she is in England. [:P]  

[/quote]

The point was that certain parts of the media would tell you that ALL NHS treatment is free the moment any foreigner steps off a boat or a plane. NOT TRUE. The same rules apply to the NHS as to the CMU.

I won't get into arguement. Just stating the rules.

[Quillan]

People 'slip through' which is the problem. I had an American guest who was in hospital for two days here in France, never charged.

In the UK hospitals have very few staff to chase people for the money and by the time they get round to it the people have disappeared by either giving a false address or have gone back to the country from which they came. The Royal London Hospital for instance has only one person and I suspect other hospitals have around the same amount of staff for this function. Many don't even ask for the European health card and if they do hardly ever follow it up unless you are unlucky.

[NickP]

[quote user="Patf"][quote user="NickP"][quote user="breizh"]

However the tight fisted Brits want everything cheap[:D]

[/quote]

That is an outrageous thing to say, I have paid my way under the system as it stands, and so have a lot of other people; we are entitled to what ever is necessary.  I don't expect any thing on the cheap, and when I'm in France I get what I'm entitled to; as does your "blue eyed blond" when she is in England. [:P]  

[/quote]
I doubt that our contributions to the NHS when we were working will cover our health care until we die. I'm sure mine won't.
[/quote]

It's not just your insurance contributions, there is tax revenue which goes toward NHS upkeep. Mind you from your comment I would guess that you believe that Car Tax is used to repair the roads. Pat when I started work I took out a contract with the government they said you give us X amount we will give you this service, I kept my side of the bargain and so far they have kept theirs. Why does that allow me to be accused of wanting something on the cheap?

[NickP]

[quote user="breizh"][quote user="NickP"][quote user="breizh"]

However the tight fisted Brits want everything cheap[:D]

[/quote]

That is an outrageous thing to say, I have paid my way under the system as it stands, and so have a lot of other people; we are entitled to what ever is necessary.  I don't expect any thing on the cheap, and when I'm in France I get what I'm entitled to; as does your "blue eyed blond" when she is in England. [:P]  

[/quote]

The point was that certain parts of the media would tell you that ALL NHS treatment is free the moment any foreigner steps off a boat or a plane. NOT TRUE. The same rules apply to the NHS as to the CMU.

I won't get into arguement. Just stating the rules.

[/quote]

I'm sorry; but I don't understand your point, are you saying that foreigners only get 70% financial assistance for health claims in the UK?

[Gardengirl]

[quote user="Quillan"]

People 'slip through' which is the problem. I had an American guest who was in hospital for two days here in France, never charged.

In the UK hospitals have very few staff to chase people for the money and by the time they get round to it the people have disappeared by either giving a false address or have gone back to the country from which they came. The Royal London Hospital for instance has only one person and I suspect other hospitals have around the same amount of staff for this function. Many don't even ask for the European health card and if they do hardly ever follow it up unless you are unlucky.

[/quote]

I was back in UK for a check up at hospital recently, and saw that a notice has appeared since my last visit, asking that people with EU health cards notify the clerk; that's a good start, but other nationalities aren't even mentioned, and even EU nationals have to bring the subject up themselves - if they spot the small notice and can understand it.

On the other hand, when rushed by pompiers to the local hospital a couple of years ago, I could just have walked out; nobody asked me for my EHIC, although most people who dealt with me knew I was English. I had to actively seek out the office to hav my details taken, and the person who dealt with me didn't have a clue what to do with my EHIC, and had to ask other members of staff before she found somebody who did know.