When to moderate and when not........?

[Coco]

I recently posted on a thread about a member who had returned to the UK.  My posting was edited by a moderator and I was PM'd about it.  It was not edited for anything rude, offensive or even contravening the rules of the forum.  Some of the moderators knew of this person's private situation and thought that my comments were a little too near the truth to be published.  As I knew nothing of her personal situation, mine was purely an innocent opinion.  However, because it was felt that my comments, or me complaining publicly about the editing may inflame the situation  I was asked not to mention the editing on the forum.  I agree dto this although felt that it wasn't quite right, as it meant that due to private information that moderators had, they were skewing the comments made by those who were not "int he know" but as I wasn't that bothered about the comments I had made I said nothing.

HOWEVER, having seen the awful degeneration of the "London Attacks" thread last night, I can't help wondering........ WHERE WERE THE MODERATORS???? 

When two or three or four members are allowed to have a public slanging match, totally "off subject" I really do wonder what the point of the moderators is.  The very least that could have been done is that thier argument could have been moved to a new thread, as I have done with this one.  To allow approximately 60 out of 180 posts on a sensitive thread like that to have been given over to a personal argument is unforgiveable! 

Had the Moderators again been privy to some personal information, ie a regular member's close family had been killed or injured in one of these blasts, presumably immediate action would have been taken.  However, just because the Moderators don't know of such a case, doesn't mean that more than one of the 5000 odd members here hasn't been directly or seriously affected by these attacks, thus, this petty argument becomes highly offensive.

Now to be quite honest, the argument didn't get too abusive and I found it quite amusing to follow.  But it really was in the wrong place and should have been moved or nipped in the bud a lot earlier.

Please Moderators, a little more consistancy in what is edited and what is not, otherwise, it really will look as though you are making yourselves the elite and making personal decisions as to what can and can't be allowed, rather than following a forum policy.

[Baz]

I have just noticed this new topic by Coco and having recently responded on the subject "London Attacks" I felt it would be worth copying my response here.

"Coco I totally agree with your comments, let's get some dignity back on this tragic subject. In the past I have voiced my views about going off subject only to be told that that is the purpose of Forums. On this occasion I find it very strange that not one moderator has not opened up another thread for the postings not applicable on what must be regarded as a very sensitive topic.

On many other Forums, Administrators or Moderators often open up new threads or post to other threads when relevant. Why not here? "

Baz

[0two bikesddMMyyyy0Falseen-USTrue]

Look what they did to poor old outcast,he stood up to the three or four privileged few that can get away with insulting members and using four letter words in their posts.Sorry to see this forum being taken over by the pc elite,it,s a real shame,and it,s a tragedy to see the moderators hand in glove with some forum menbers.

[Hoddy]

"But it really was in the wrong place and should have been moved or nipped in the bud a lot earlier."

Coco I sympathize with what you say. The difficulty is in deciding  at what point to intervene. Generally I don't like censoring things and as you imply it wasn't breaking forum rules, at least not  in its early stages of degeneration.

Where were the moderators ? I can't speak for the others - I was at a party celebrating Bastille Day and OH's birthday - a special one with an "0" on the end. We had a wonderful evening. I did look at the thread before I went to bed and my heart sank. Like you I was deeply disappointed that people were more interested in having the last word than being respectful to those involved, or even discussing the major issues raised by the bombing. I was also aware that having had a glass or few of wine my judgement wasn't necessarily sound and so I left it alone.

Hoddy

[Teamedup]

Two bikes: There are no priviledged members on this board.

[Coco]

Are not the Moderators members and are not the Moderators privileged?  After all, they are able to decide which postings are to be pulled and which remain.

Fair point Hoddy.  Best to wait til the wine isn't ruling your mouth (or fingers)  Had I seen the London Attacks thread last night, I might well have been banned by now.

However, my question still stands.  Why haven't those comments now been removed from that post.  Enough people have complained about it now.

The terms and conditions of this forum state:

Please keep to the topic of the original thread.

Impedes or disrupts the flow of the discussions in the Forum

Users must not post messages which:

• Are insulting, abusive, racist, sexist, or derogatory in any way to others, whether they are individuals or companies, users of the Forum or not.

I believe that all three of the above terms were breached on the London Attacks thread, but I breached none in my edited posting - so just how is it decided which stay and which are deleted?   Surely that is the most privileged position of all.

[Teamedup]

I believe that the moderators are not priviledged.

IF they made any statements that flamed or really personally insulted or advertised, then I have confidence that the other mods would contact the board owners and have this person removed from moderator duties and they be given a warning. If they continued posting like that, then they would be kicked out.

I have never seen the moderators do any of these things, although, I do believe that they have a right to stick up for themselves if necessary.

I have confidence.

 

[Christine Animal]

This type of situation is very sad.  It's a shame that moderators should have to exist and intervene at all...

[RobS]

I think they all do a reasonably good, unobtrusive job. We only have to think back (about 18 months?) to how bad the forum was without them. I agree with TU in that I too have confidence in them, although ( a bit of fence sitting here) I also agree with Coco that they could have stepped in and removed the London Attacks 'discussion' posts to another thread.

[amp]

[RayB]

[quote]I have just noticed this new topic by Coco and having recently responded on the subject "London Attacks" I felt it would be worth copying my response here. "Coco I totally agree with your commen...[/quote]

**"Coco I totally agree with your comments, let's get some dignity back on this tragic subject.**

Might I inject these two words - 'Common Courtesy'. Good natured jibes are fun but when it gets personal, it has no place in any forum. It is universally understood that in any debate, discussion or arguement, when one resorts to name-calling, they have intellectually lost. That applies to their credibility, as well

[Tony F Dordogne]

Earlier today another forum newbie, two bikes, 1st posting said:

"Look what they did to poor old outcast,he stood up to the three or four privileged few that can get away with insulting members and using four letter words in their posts.Sorry to see this forum being taken over by the pc elite,it,s a real shame,and it,s a tragedy to see the moderators hand in glove with some forum menbers."

Smacks of similar threads in the past - now if two bikes it truly a forum newbie, 1st posting, how come he/she knows so much about outcast?

Is this the return of GavinBlair, another forum newbie, 1st posting, who knew a lot about the history here, who equally couldn't spell or punctuate properly?  And had the last thread he started pulled?

Surely if somebody is joining time after time from the same internet address, there must be some piece of kit that picks that up for Living France and auto ban them?

Now that would add to consistancy without the Mods being involved.

 

[Ex Forum Admin]

[quote]Earlier today another forum newbie, two bikes, 1st posting said: "Look what they did to poor old outcast,he stood up to the three or four privileged few that can get away with insulting members and...[/quote]

Not if/when new emails are set up to rejoin.

 

[nomorealurker]

[quote]Earlier today another forum newbie, two bikes, 1st posting said: "Look what they did to poor old outcast,he stood up to the three or four privileged few that can get away with insulting members and...[/quote]

I'm sorry, but i disagree. I've been 'lurking' on this site for over 2 years and remember reading posts by Outcast etc and others that have since been banned, and the old forum format but have never joined up before now.

So twobikes (whoever he/she is) could easily be another long term lurker like moi!

I certainly wouldn't want anyone to think i was a reincarnation just because i'm a newbie but still know some of the forum history!

[Maddie]

[quote]Not if/when new emails are set up to rejoin.[/quote]

Surely in this day and age there is more than one way of identify a specific internet user not just by their email address? Isn't there some sort of unique number linked to the PC/ISP that can identify users? 

 

[Tresco]

So twobikes (whoever he/she is) could easily be another long term lurker like moi!

Possible yes, but if you have been here a long time you will perhaps have also noticed the lack of aquaintance with the space bar, erratic use of punctuation, and the focussing on 'four letter words' (which are rarely used, and always expressed as ******'s anyway).

All of these, along with an unhealthy obsession with so called 'priviledged' members are typical of the style of the man overboard, whatever he chooses to call himself.

 

[nomorealurker]

Now you mention it Tresco, i do remember seeing commas and apostrophes regularly misused somewhere before!

[Tresco]

Now you mention it Tresco, i do remember seeing commas and apostrophes regularly misused somewhere before!

Yes, typically a comma is used where there should be an apostophe, but it's the repeated themes along with the punctuation (before I said erratic, but really when I think about it, it is quite consistent) that alert me.

I would like to add that I don't criticise people on the basis of punctation/spelling. My own is not perfect.

[opas]

Hey Tresco have you got a crush on my husband?  You have made reference to him twice in the last few days......I`ll go ask if he misses you too!

Moderating .....depends on who posts what doesn`t it?  my opinion, no one will convince me otherwise.

Mrs O

[Alexis]

How is he Mrs O?

I dare say we will be hearing from him one day......

[Quillan]

I was not sure if I should or wanted to make some sort of reply but here goes.

Most of the moderators have businesses or work and cannot be on the forum 24/7. There is no rota and without our private forum where we can leave messages and details of action taken for each other it is seldom, especially this time of year, that we are all on together. In fact you are lucky if there are more than two at any one time.

There is also a responsibility of forum members to bring to light anything that they think breaks the terms of the forums Code of Conduct. To the best of my knowledge nobody has actually complained about the London Bombings thread as we have no record of any such complaint. In fact it is very seldom, probably about two or three times so far this year that anyone has complained about any thread. What we do get complaints about, all be them very few and far between, is from people being 'attacked' on open forum.

With regards to editing Coco's post about another member it was seen by one forum member who did not have time to carry out any action. I was told it contained personal information on another user who no longer had access to the forum and therefore could not answer for themselves. I was only he instrument that did the editing. Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to 'get out' of what I did. I also thought that it was wrong to talk about another forum member in open forum especially as we now know by Cocos post above she does not know her personally at all. I think therefore the word idle gossip comes to mind.

Yes we did monitor the London Bomb thread, not as well as we should admittedly but our main concern was that assumptions could be made about who did the bombings and who was behind the bombings. I think we can all have a educated guess but the fact is all we know is who did them, we still don't know officially who is behind them. What we really didn't want was racist comments and the whole thing going pear shaped because of this. What will happen to all the rubbish in there? I don't know yet but it will be a lot of work sorting it out, any takers?

What I I can tell you that one member has been banned and his login deleted but as we all know it won't stop them coming back if they really want to. Yes we log IP addresses (and email address) but people in 'the know' can always change them and we have to have absolute proof that we have the right person and I mean absolute proof. I know that somebody will say "it's obvious that it's the same person, look at their spelling and/or punctuation" well all I can say is that if they are so sure will they please send us the deeds to their house so we can sell it if they are wrong and we get sued. As somebody else posted above they didn't spell and punctuate correctly either and neither do I (and a lot of others here) at times.

As to censorship, well we (the moderators) have answered this question on more than one occasion in the past, just do a search to find our responses on this issue. If you think we are not doing it correctly you can always complain to Forum Admin or alternatively why not apply to be a moderator yourself, put your money were your mouth is. Of course Archant could always charge you guys to use the forum and then pay a team of people to moderate 24/7 but then we wouldn't have any members as nobody would pay.

Finally, if you really don't like the way the forum is run and you don't want to complain or become a moderator then stop winging and do something about it, leave and join another forum (there is loads to choose from) as has often been pointed out before by more than one moderator or forum member come to that.

[Coco]

With regards to editing Coco's post about another member it was seen by one forum member who did not have time to carry out any action. I was told it contained personal information on another user who no longer had access to the forum and therefore could not answer for themselves.

Well you were told wrong then weren't you Chris?  You didn't check with me at all, just cut my posting.  Even when you wrote and told me you had edited it you didn't say it was because I had divulged personal information - I didn't have any to give!!!  By you listening to a third party and not asking me direct then I'm afraid "the word idle gossip comes to mind"!!!! 

I also thought that it was wrong to talk about another forum member in open forum especially as we now know by Cocos post above she does not know her personally at all. I think therefore the word idle gossip comes to mind.

I didn't "talk about" another forum member, you make it sound derogatory.  There was a thread (which was not deleted) specifically about this person and asking if she was OK.  I merely stated that if she had returned to the UK perhaps it was the best choice for her as it was evident from her postings that she was not happy with France.  That is not idle gossip, that is an opinion formed from the information she willingly put on the open forum.  I did not divulge anything told to me in confidence, I did not second guess, I did not listen to gossip from a third party.  I read her postings and made my own assumption - something that I think happens hundreds of times every day on this forum.  If someone chooses to constantly run down everything they experience in France you can only draw the conclusion that they are unhappy here and that is all I did.  It wasn't a derogatory remark about the person, I merely wished her well in her new life back in the UK because she clearly wasn't happy here.

Finally, if you really don't like the way the forum is run and you don't want to complain or become a moderator then stop winging and do something about it, leave and join another forum (there is loads to choose from) as has often been pointed out before by more than one moderator or forum member come to that.

So we're not allowed to air our opinions now then?  Censorship of the highest order I think!!!  And yes, I did complain - on open forum - and I don't appear to have been shouted down by too many people!  But what is the response we get?  If you don't like they way we're doing it B****** off!  NO I WON'T.  I'm entitled to pass an opinion and my opinion was that I thought that the moderation is sometimes a little askew.  That doesn't mean that I think it is always wrong, , it doesn't mean I don't appreciate that the moderators do a lot of hard work for no remuneration and very little thanks, it doesn't mean I want to be a moderator.  No one forced you to become a Moderator, you did that all by yourself and every time there is any kind of criticism you just tell us to go elsewhere...... Hhmmmm, didn't someone say something about privileged members and the elite?

[Dick Smith]

Actually, Coco, 'enjoys dishing it out but doesn't like taking it' springs to mind...

[Will]

I'll just add a couple of things to what Quillan has said. We don't want to lose anybody or encourage them to leave, anybody is welcome to post here as long as behave like decent, adult human beings.

It is possible to ban certain IP addresses with most forum software. This is really only effective if somebody posts from a fixed IP address. The vast majority of ISPs use dynamic IP addresses which means that every time you connect to the internet you are likely to get a different IP address. A range of IP addresses can be banned, but that would have the effect of banning all, say, Wanadoo users (or at least those in a particular geographical area). Even with an always-on broadband connection, many ISPs change users' IP address periodically. So unfortunately this is not usually a feasible option.

We are unusual among the France forums in having a Code of Conduct to which all users must sign up. At least one other popular France forum has stated that it doesn't have rules, just normal etiquette. But posts on that forum are still edited, deleted, moved around etc. That, to me, indicates that there are often other reasons for moderating than those that are rigidly defined in any set of rules.

By the way, that forum has also recently taken on extra moderators (proving that moderation is necessary even without specific rules and causing one user to post saying she was having a 'Living France moment' ).

[Quillan]

Coco - I'm sorry you feel the way you do about your post but it WAS edited because of the reason given and edited down to all that you needed to say at the time.

General Comment - With regards to going else where, I am simply saying (which I and others have said many times before) that if you feel you can't keep within the Code of Conduct which you agreed to when you joined the forum then go somewhere else. As Will said there are plenty out there where there is no CoC. Forum members have to take some responcibilty them selves and let us know if there is a problem. We can't be everywhere all the time, we have lives outside the forum.

I became a moderator last year due to several problems with the forum and a minority of members (who have since left). I like this forum and have been using it for three and a half years (I had a different login back then) and feared it might be closed down as another had (allegedly). Others have taken the challenge and we have ALL worked hard (I include members as well) to ensure the forum maintains it's high standard and has become a defacto place for high quality information on living in France.

As Coco reminded you we don't get paid and we do it in our spare time. We also stay very much in the background as moderators although we still post as normal members. It was suggested that we had alternative logins so people would know when we were moderating but we voted and decided not to. Perhaps that was a bad decision, I don't know. So yes taking in to account all that us moderators do I do get a bit narked when people have a 'pop' at us.

Well Le Tour is passing shortly so I'm off to watch.