What is it like returning to the UK ?

[verviale]

I aggree with you Miki,but it would be interesting to know how many french people wish to come and live in the U.K.and earn two or three times the wages they earn in France,e.g. doctors,vets, lawyers,I cannot imagine they would want to sacrifice their lifestyle for the money.French artisans, I am sure can earn the same as ours in the u.k.Do you think the french on the whole have a different attitude to the work place,work to live and not live to work.I know there are many french in London, but I think thats in the financial sector, as Paris is limited,my son has two french guys managing the european markets in his office, but they travel back on eurostar every weekend.I will never run England down, I have made a good living here, which has given me freedom and choices, I may sound a bit smug and not wishing to get into politics whatsoever,but where would France be without the help they received from different nations in the war.I feel really proud to be Brittish, I think we are a unique nation who can make their home anywhere in the world,perhaps our downfall being we expect everyone else to speak english.

[YCCMB]

[quote user="verviale"]it would be interesting to know how many french people wish to come and live in the U.K.and earn two or three times the wages they earn in France,e.g. doctors,vets, lawyers,I cannot imagine they would want to sacrifice their lifestyle for the money.[/quote]

 

Interestingly, verviale, there are plenty. In the last 12 months, I've worked with a French doctor who came to the UK (largely for the money) and over the last 10 years I've worked with French lawyers, accountants and other professionals, all of whom have come to work in the UK and in most cases are quite happy to stay. In my last "proper" (corporate) job, we were presented with the interesting situation of a couple of French nationals who were employed by the (French) company for whom I then worked, but had been recruited in the UK, on UK contracts with UK T&C's. In order to progress their careers, they were offered the chance to move back to France, to the company's corporate HQ in Paris. Both refused because the company refused to move them back to their home country on expatriate contracts (i.e. to treat them as if the were UK nationals) and if they had accepted to return to France on French contracts as French nationals they would have had to take a substantial cut in salary and hence lifestyle. So don't you believe it, there are plenty of French professionals working in the UK who would far rather be in  well-paid job here than a badly paid job in France, even if the latter offers better lunches and all the wine you can drink![:)]

[verviale]

I am quite suprised, but when you think of it you can get all the fine wine you want in the u.k. and the choice of food to dine on , is amazing and I suppose if you have worked in a large city in France the only big change is less time for lunch and I have read somewhere that even the parisians are eating fast food.

[Turnip]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]

[quote user="verviale"]it would be interesting to know how many french people wish to come and live in the U.K.and earn two or three times the wages they earn in France,e.g. doctors,vets, lawyers,I cannot imagine they would want to sacrifice their lifestyle for the money.[/quote]

 

Interestingly, verviale, there are plenty. In the last 12 months, I've worked with a French doctor who came to the UK (largely for the money) and over the last 10 years I've worked with French lawyers, accountants and other professionals, all of whom have come to work in the UK and in most cases are quite happy to stay. In my last "proper" (corporate) job, we were presented with the interesting situation of a couple of French nationals who were employed by the (French) company for whom I then worked, but had been recruited in the UK, on UK contracts with UK T&C's. In order to progress their careers, they were offered the chance to move back to France, to the company's corporate HQ in Paris. Both refused because the company refused to move them back to their home country on expatriate contracts (i.e. to treat them as if the were UK nationals) and if they had accepted to return to France on French contracts as French nationals they would have had to take a substantial cut in salary and hence lifestyle. So don't you believe it, there are plenty of French professionals working in the UK who would far rather be in  well-paid job here than a badly paid job in France, even if the latter offers better lunches and all the wine you can drink![:)]

[/quote]

And (according to BBC TV a while ago) French companies are not averse to setting up in the UK to avoid the choking bureaucracy suffered by French based businesses. [Www]

[Turnip]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]

[quote user="verviale"]it would be interesting to know how many french people wish to come and live in the U.K.and earn two or three times the wages they earn in France,e.g. doctors,vets, lawyers,I cannot imagine they would want to sacrifice their lifestyle for the money.[/quote]

 

Interestingly, verviale, there are plenty. In the last 12 months, I've worked with a French doctor who came to the UK (largely for the money) and over the last 10 years I've worked with French lawyers, accountants and other professionals, all of whom have come to work in the UK and in most cases are quite happy to stay. In my last "proper" (corporate) job, we were presented with the interesting situation of a couple of French nationals who were employed by the (French) company for whom I then worked, but had been recruited in the UK, on UK contracts with UK T&C's. In order to progress their careers, they were offered the chance to move back to France, to the company's corporate HQ in Paris. Both refused because the company refused to move them back to their home country on expatriate contracts (i.e. to treat them as if the were UK nationals) and if they had accepted to return to France on French contracts as French nationals they would have had to take a substantial cut in salary and hence lifestyle. So don't you believe it, there are plenty of French professionals working in the UK who would far rather be in  well-paid job here than a badly paid job in France, even if the latter offers better lunches and all the wine you can drink![:)]

[/quote]

And (according to BBC TV a while ago) French companies are not averse to setting up in the UK to avoid the choking bureaucracy suffered by French based businesses. [Www]

[verviale]

I cannot understand why the french goverment do not make it easier to set up a business,it would certainly help their economy to encourage enterprise, mind you  we are starting to have problems in the building trade in the u.k with all the eastern europeans undercutting our english builders.They will probably return home after a year with enough money to buy a house and those of us that have used them will have no recourse if anything goes wrong.So maybe the french goverment are not so backward after all.You hardly see an english labourer on a building site these days.

[Miki]

Dave,

You didn't find the peace you wanted in the UK due to what, Price and location ? If so, was France first choice or 2nd but won on affordability ?

I am not having a pop at you but that group is now a quite large one here and I have always been a believer that one has far better chance of longevity in France if one can accept it, warts and all than to put ones head up ones j***sy and just get on because sure as eggs is eggs, one day, a few realities will pop up and all of a sudden France ain't quite as great as it once appeared............. and that's a fact.

For the second part, and you agree you are in that bunch of Rose coloured wotsits, many of us on here have debated the fact that too many have them on, I have no qualms with those that wear them, as long as they don't come along and tell us all just how it all works here as Mme LeMarchaud their voisine has told them, and she speaks no English and they speak no French, plus the man at the bar gives them all the info and so it's all true and most of us know nuffink at all !

By the sound of it though, you are like many already, wishing for a place

in the UK as well, if so, that's the best situation of all in my view !

[Owens88]

[quote user="Mpprh"]I'm in a funny position.

I am self employed here ........

I'm open minded. If I had to move back, I would want to be in a rural area near a city (same as for the last 30 years). ....I could never go back to the London sprawl. ....
The only real problem for me is the if I could live with "little islander" mentality : foreigners are greasy - we are the best in the world - the BBC is independent- the only ones with honest policeman and without corruption are the Brits, etc.

Am I a stateless person ?

Peter
[/quote]

No Peter you are not stateless, you are an individual like we all are (visions of a tick-box marked 'individual' are now crowding my head !).

I have spent 19 years self employed in Britain during which time I made my investment in France. (I am now a student teacher - a voyage of personal madness !). I live in a large village near cities in the East Midlands, and am repeatedly reminded how much I value 'community'.

BUT the bit of France we went for also has community. It is not sparsely populated nor a city. I only mention this because it is indeed necessary to compare apples and apples.  When contrasting 'countries' what bits are we contrasting ? Even customer service varies by outlet and locality, so why do some generalise about 'France' ?  Similarly Britain is not full of whingers or deluded triumphalists, they are just dense and in visible areas !

 

BUT argue 'systems' and there is a lot to comment on which is near homogenous within a country.e.g. The French employment regime. Many French educated youth leave France to work in the, more flexible but also harsher, UK. Many UK 'winding down' people leave towards France. What is the long-term effect of both moves ?

 

[Mistral]

[quote user="verviale"]  my son has two french guys managing the european markets in his office, but they travel back on eurostar every weekend.[/quote]

I don't think that could be simply put down to them wanting to leave the UK as soon as they can. From my experience a lot of French people are very attached to their region d'origine and travel back as often as they can. To give you an idea, I live just north of Marseilles and I have a colleague who goes back to Toulouse every weekend and another who leaves for the Alpes every holidays as soon as the last bell rings. Most of my colleagues are surprised that I don't return to the UK every school holidays.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="Mistral"]

[quote user="verviale"]  my son has two

french guys managing the european markets in his office, but they

travel back on eurostar every weekend.[/quote]

I don't think that could be simply put down to them wanting to leave

the UK as soon as they can. From my experience a lot of French people

are very attached to their region d'origine and travel back as often as

they can. To give you an idea, I live just north of Marseilles and I

have a colleague who goes back to Toulouse every weekend and another

who leaves for the Alpes every holidays as soon as the last bell rings.

Most of my colleagues are surprised that I don't return to the UK

every school holidays.

[/quote]

Good point. It has been my experience that most of the French working

in the UK are of what could be called the "privilaged" classes - well

educated, very well paid, generally because suitably qualified Brits were lacking [:)], and very much there for the short term. Virtually all seemed to be working on the principle of building up cash

reserves and then returning to la patrie for spawning purposes.

If they had children already those children were in French schools -

there was no pretence of integration. In their own way they wore rose

coloured specs themselves: they had little or no idea of what was going

on politically or socially in the UK and very little interest in

finding out. Certainly on weekends and holidays they were on the

Eurostar before you could say knife. Many of them hardly set foot

outside London or the home counties.

[Thibault]

What a fascinating thread and points well put by all "sides" with no personal attacks or other "nasties". 

[RumziGal]

Well, soon I'll be going back to France - for a rest!!

I'm just overwhelmed by having a social life again.   And I mean a real one of my very own, not just a flurry of visiting long-forgotten friends or anything.   I've already met plenty new people who are friendly and welcoming and all that stuff.  Maybe it's just the circles I move in, if that doesn't sound pretentious!   Sure, "les voeux du Maire" gives you a chance to see who else lives in the village, but the truth is that not everyone is great buddies outside these situations, and it does only pass an hour once a year, then everyone goes back chez eux.

I was really quite nervous about coming back, having heard so much about how unfriendly the UK is, and how rude everyone is, but 6 years in France have taught me that once you're out in public it's pretty much chacun pour soi, so for the moment it all seems quite normal.. 

The news is exactly the same in both countries.

The cinema costs the same.

I think it'll be nice to get back there for the summer, but much longer than that and France will start to feel like prison again.   I'm just too much of a butterfly brain to be happy doing nothing.   I can't help it, I need to keep on having little challenges, and it's just not happening in France.   I feel France is very inhibitied, things always have to be labelled, you know, like "pédagogique" - I mean, come on, why can it not just be FUN?        

And you know something else, I haven't been grumped at in a shop yet.   How good is that?   [:D]

I do agree that British women could put more effort into brushing their hair.  [;-)]    And yes, people do eat VERY fast!  [blink] 

[Deimos]

All fascinating stuff. I have read many saying cost of living in France is cheaper than the UK whilst others say its not massively different. Certainly I find living in France a lot cheaper than the UK, but then I also made a major lifestyle change when I moved here so its difficult to tell if its the lifestyle that's cheaper or the country.

It is interesting that some find life a bit dull in France. I am having a great time and certainly far from being bored (I actually do not have time to do everything I have now started). I wonder if that is a country related thing or just a lifestyle thing again. Certainly my language skills are "limited" but I never let that stop me doing anything.

Whilst I'm having a great time at the moment I'm sure I will return to the UK at some point (or move to some other country). Thinking about moving house probably next year (2008) so seems a thought to consider the UK. The few visits I've made over the last couple of years, I think its great to see friends and family and maybe I should think about moving back, but within a few minutes of driving off the ferry you get the flashy car drivers barging in as you are parked in a motorway jam, litter alongside the roads, people being so rude, etc. and I quickly think that whilst it's great to see everybody I really do not want to live there.

I suppose it can be difficult to compare true "like with like", particularly as things seem so regionally variable (both in France and UK). People here have posted about how quickly they can see their GP in the UK - certainly not something that applies throughout the UK. People have commented about the lack of things to do in France but again, probably depends on what you like doing and to what extent it depends on others. I certainly have a lot more to do in France than in the UK.

Ian

[Bugsy]

"

[RumziGal]

[quote user="Deimos"]

I certainly have a lot more to do in France than in the UK.

Ian

[/quote]

Yup, horses for courses, I guess.   I've done loads of things in France, I've done patchwork and pottery and porcelain painting, I joined a choir, I've done gym classes and randonnée, I taught English in the village school for a year, I've helped every year with the village duathlon, I've done belly dancing, I've done guitar lessons, I've done cookery classes....... and so on and so forth.   My French is fine.  

But they've had no results, if you can understand that?   You turn up, you do the activity, and you all go away again.   People say "bonjour" very politely, but there's no obvious friendship-forming or socialising going on.   It's all very functional and individualistic, and what should be a social life gets to be like housework, just something you have to do and then you go back to your empty house.

I think that's it, it's the spontaneous socialising that's missing in France.  It all has to be organised and prepared for.   Big meals are good, but in between times you just want a chat over a beer, you know?    Just some friendly human contact without having to worry about the quality of the lettuce.  Chat is good.   Beer is good.   Maximise that human contact!  [:)]       

        

[Teamedup]

Dave, I don't think that Miki is unhappy in France just as I am not unhappy either. IF I was or had been I would have upped sticks and left.

It is a mistake that many posters make when reading  comments from the likes of me or Miki amoungst others, the mistake of treating our down to earth comments as being signs of unhappiness.

                                                                        ------------------------------

Love it or leave it, [8-)]I don't 'love' France. I never have and only came here for a bit of an adventure anyway. I like France well enough, as I said, if I was unhappy I would have left a long time ago.

What flabbergasts me are comments about the crowds and driving in the UK as soon as one leaves the ports. I am a very down to earth person. I won't lie on here for effect, but the honest truth is that we get into Dover and are away up that hill. Flash cars? I see as many going into my local city which isn't that far away. The only thing we see more of are lorries really and even then it isn't that bad.  And apart from about half an hour or so going via the Dartford Tunnel and the traffic, well as I said half an hour or so to get past London.............we don't see industry or that many signs of habitation all the way up to North East, even at night the lights of towns do not encompass us.

If one flies over the UK and we have to when we fly up north, it is a green and pleasant land. It isn't one huge conurbation. And it always makes me think that the places where french people mass should sprawl more than they do. How can a population with such a huge country be content living in appartments in the cité. Calais a prime example, those awful high rises all crammed into a small area and yet all that land that surrounds the place where surely housing with gardens could be built.

[cooperlola]

Interesting, Rumzi.  Mr Cooperlola is not a great joiner of anything but the one thing I've persuaded him to do, is join the local randoneurs.  At the end of the walks which are based round our village, we all repair to the local bar - which has a function room - and coffee/onion soup are provided and we all sit around chatting before going home - we even have one member who entertains us with a song or two!  We went on just 3 walks last year but lo and behold, we got a letter yesterday inviting us to the opening of the season meeting, followed by a meal.  They didn't ask us for our address or details on any of those walks, but found out who we were and where we lived and included us.  10+ years with the Tunbridge Wells ramblers and not so much as a pint after a walk in all that time. 

[Will]

Cooperlola - that just proves it. It all comes down to the individual people rather than nationality, area, social background or any of the other convenient little boxes. I've certainly found that in general people in both France and Britain are pretty sociable when in groups, but there are plenty of exceptions.

Regarding cost of living, that is always difficult. For example there was a perception not long ago that electricity bills were high in France, and comparing standing charges and unit costs that was probably the case. But now the costs in France and Britain seem much more on a par. There are good reasons why in this particular case, but costs go up by varying amounts (and even occasionally go down) at different rates all the time. Local taxes is another form of expenditure where most of France used to be significantly cheaper than England, but now it's just cheaper. Running homes (rather than just owning houses) in both countries, I feel qualified to make informed comments, but even so it is difficult because the houses are of vastly different size, though roughy the same market value.

[Bugsy]

"

[Teamedup]

Are there boxes? Like the one which says you must 'love' France to live here or leave.

 

I will never ever understand the flood of people that have moved to France. And for all I don't 'love' the place, I respect the place. AND  I don't to 'use' it.  Which is quite another debate. And I suspect too many who say that they 'love' France, actually do 'use' the place one way or another.

I couldn't use a term like Eldorado, no idea what it means. Remember I left the UK well before Eastenders had hit it's screens and I suppose that Eldorada is a tv series.

[Bugsy]

"

 

[Miki]

TU,

So glad you came back. It is hard enough to explain to some people who feel Utopia starts at Calais that if they could not get what theyw anted in the UK, perhaps thye themselves could be the problem ? Why not, if they couldn't get on with folks or places in the UK but can here, why ? Perhaps it was just a change of venue, a change of house, somewhere to re-invent themsleves like the Lord we met who was only a baker, the Sir who was no more than a Mr and so on. I have great friends in the UK and good, sometimes great frineds here, no chnage.

I see what I see, I don't fawn over the place, I don't harp on and on like so many newbies tend to do. I, sadly for me,  got captured by a whole bunch of them on the ferry back, "We live in France"  they say, no question was even asked to to get that result "We have been in France for nearly a couple of years, if you need to know anything, we know all you need to know" I developed a need for the toilet and spent the rest of the trip camped in the cabin. That may come across as a litle je ne sais quoi but I honestly hope we never ever acted like that on our journeys...why why why.......

France is very popular and as I said some years ago or more, one of the main reasons why, is quite simple..It is the closest place to the UK which is considered abroad, it is different, not better, different. There are great places in the UK, great people, great humour in fact much is great about the UK but too many people now have the money to change their lives and with it their attitudes. It is all so easy to move, sell house for a bomb, move to France, live well on the difference added to savings, investments etc et voila. Not everyone sits in that bracket but certainly a large percentage do. Add all that to cheap health cover, lunches out, drink total crap vin rouge and all is well in the world, slam everything about the UK and it will make your choice of move even more acceptable and.................

[LanguedocGal]

[quote user="Dave"]Can anyone please explain to me "the Eldorado Crowd" have I missed something? Are they the same lot as "that bunch of Rose wotsits" are those that use these terms in some kind of 'other' group that looks down on the Eldo's and Roses?[:D]

best regards

Dave
[/quote]

 

Dave

‘’France is the perfect, cheap, crime free, stress-free, brilliant health, education system  etc etc whereas the UK is a hellhole bla bla bla lot’’.  Same old rant for years and I just got excruciatingly bored hearing it. I admit it’s not very clever but it’s shorthand or a ‘box’ if you prefer and I suspect you knew what I meant.

Bugbear wrote

Love France or Leave it....................................

I would question whether what I call the French Eldorado crowd  (sorry but I'll keep it now I've defined it [;-)]) love France or just their ‘’bubble’’ in France.

I get the impression that many on a lifestyle quest feel threatened when the French Idyll image is even gently challenged. Why take it personally?  I would question just how much someone who only loves their bubble in any country really ‘loves’ that country. I’m not saying we can love all aspects of a country but a bubble is a bubble.

My lifestyle in France is constantly questioned by my local friends, though less and less now because they’ve simply classified me as the eccentric ‘’d’Outre-manche’’.  They accept me warts and all even when I defend the British settlers and the very negative perceptions  re their effects on local house prices. (I tell them to blame it on Parisians buying holiday homes. Apologies to any Parisians reading this [:D]).

What would you say if I made an idiotic statement such as ‘I moved here because there are over 300 sunny days per year in France’’.  Would that apply to France or my region of France?  A daft example perhaps but we have read how people generalise about this country in glowing terms (without knowing much about the dark realities) whilst criticising the UK.

Like other posters here, I will praise and criticise France and there is absolutely nothing to say that I do not enjoy my life as much or more than those who feel the need to constantly praise it and defend their little corner of the country by bashing the UK.

As you say, success is down to the individual but I'm not sure how people wanting to move to France are helped by constantly reading that it’s some sort of pretty picture postcard without the ‘hassles and stresses’ that exist elsewhere, as these exist here just as much. I heard on a French TV debate a couple of months ago that the French and Argentines are the people who consult shrinks the most in the world (not the Americans!). Perhaps that’s due to facility in their health system but if true, it’s hardly the characteristics of a stress-free nation.

A lot of Brits moving to France do not have sufficient French to research the country in all its facets via the French media, govt documents, connections etc so often fall onto the statements of the French Idyll lot, naff television programmes and books. On forums we can now freely show the other side too.

Re not being able to change things (mentioned by another poster); well on a different thread Chris pp wrote an excellent post on how individuals can make a small difference in France. I think many Brits moving to France do not particularly want to make a difference (but keep things the same) as they are in ‘stress-free lifestyle mode’ when they come here, having worked so hard in the UK. I’m not saying anyone should ‘have to’ want to participate to change things but it’s not impossible to do so. I suspect some may not be able to participate even if they wanted due to timidity and lack of fluency. For others, we have seen here, lack of fluency does not hinder full participation.

Re traffic congestion on British Motorways as this comes up a lot and is accurate but has anyone heard of the A9 that leads to Spain? Down here, it’s average most of the times and a virtual car park during holiday periods. Can’t believe it’s the only motorway of that nature in the country.

A healthy debate challenging the ‘French Idyll’ and the constant barrage of anti UK statements should not get anyone on the defensive because I can’t see much is achieved that way.

I’ve personally found it interesting reading the different posts.

 

[cooperlola]

Seconded Miki.  If you've moved here to escape, you'll probably bring whatever it was you were trying to escape from along with you. I have a close relative who has moved house so many times it is untrue (always in the UK) to get away from some irritating thing or other and it's amazing how the next place always turns out to be just as bad as the last!

[Bugsy]

[quote user="LanguedocGal"]

Bugbear wrote

Love France or Leave it....................................

[/quote]

LG,

If you don't mind a slight correction I didn't write that phrase, I merely quoted it.

[:)]