Nationality

[Tony F Dordogne]

Same for me Sam, roll on Feb 2010 so I can take the test.

[PossumGirl]

Mr. P and I each took the other's nationality as soon as we were able (it was MUCH easier 28 years ago!) and it was the wisest decision we ever made.  Makes life so much easier, and we both feel that we are able to contribute to whichever society we are living in by voting.

Strangely, even though Mr. P is French by birth, when I told him of this conversation, he said that he feels more American, simply because he spent more of his adult life in America than in France.  Of course, no one hearing his accent would ever think him American; even after 28 years he never lost that French accent.

PG

[Georgina]

[quote user="RumziGal"][quote user="Georgina"][Indeed the celebration of Christmas a tradition of our Christian country (although I appreciate not everyone is religious but still enjoyed such celebrations) has been played down, including not allowing children to play the nativity scene at our childrens' school!

 [/quote]

Not allowed to do nativity plays in school in France either. 

[/quote]

France is a mostly catholic country is it not.  I was talking about England being a predominantly Christian country where it has derived its traditions and values!

[Georgina]

[quote user="samdebretagne"]Oh no, not this topic again!  I just got done having this same discussion on another site!  :-)

I am definitely not a guest- the word guest implies that one is invited in and is there for a short period of time, and I refuse to believe I am a guest in my own home.   I live in France, I am a resident of this country.  Personally, I think "immigrant" is probably a better term here - ie, just because someone is still known as "l'anglais" or "le polonais", it doesn't mean they are a guest, just a foreigner who's decided to make his home elsewhere.
[/quote]

You may think of yourself as not being a guest, but what do the French think?

Georgina

[samdebretagne]

They think I am a foreigner residing in their country - why should they consider me as a guest, if I am here permanently?  My husband is French, and he, my in-laws, and my friends certainly don't consider me as a guest.  As I said before, classifying someone as a guest insinuates that they will be leaving, which I will not be doing, thus I am not a guest.  Why is the term "immigrant", or even "resident" so hard for some people to accept?

And PG, that's my point - on another site, people kept saying "But you will never be French, no matter how hard you try", and I sort of disagree with that.  I know several expats who have spent their entire adult life in France and certainly consider themselves to be more French than whatever nationality they originally were.  I also know a few French people that spent their entire life in the US, and have now come back to France to retire and they feel like a foreigner in what is supposed to be their own country.  Sure, they are technically French and can speak the language, but having spent their whole adult life in the US means they don't identify with France (and all its frustrations) at all.

[5-element]

Possumgirl and SamdeBretagne - I feel exactly like what describe - about yourself Sam, and about Mr P.

I never felt like a guest while I was living in the UK, which is all my adult and professional life, including higher education. It is possible to feel TWO things simultaneously, and in our post-modern world, there are many many more people who feel they are part of 2, 3 or more nations/cultures. When I first arrived in England from France in 1967, I was still an oddity, and having to inform the police station each time I changed jobs or moved houses did make me feel like what I was, an immigrant - certainly not a guest. I was even told once, by a particularly zealous police person, that if I carried on changing jobs and moving that often, I MIGHT GET DEPORTED!!! I kid you not. I retorted that actually, would they ever do that, since I was supporting a British subject (my art student boyfriend!)

And then, coming "back" to France, I have felt like an oddity again, like an immigrant who happens to understand the language, but certainly does not know or even understand the systems! I also know some other French who moved to the USA and have moved back here with their American partner, and they, too, feel like foreigners here, even though they are fairly comfortable with that.

As for the topic of flags, I find it very hard to relate to the level of excitement it generates - although I am very aware of those who lost their lives proudly carrying the flag of their nation, I am aware of the symbol it carries and still....deep down, I feel I would have no trouble burning any flag, desecrating it, as I cannot feel loyalty to a piece of cloth, just as I cannot feel pride for the accident of my birth.

On the other hand,  just returning from the Mairie with my renewed French passport today, I cannot help feeling in awe of what that little object represents for many... countless people are prepared to risk their lives in order to acquire just this object.... and I feel how unfair it is, that I should have both a French and a British passport, and would not mind sharing at least one of them!!! I am so privileged and lucky to be European without having had to work for it...Try being a Sudanese, or a Burmese, or a Columbian....

[LanguedocGal]

[quote user="Will"]

But surely the Union Flag (any pedant will tell you that it is only the union 'jack' when flown onboard a ship) has also been given the same connotations by those wearing it on the costas and on BNP rallies?

Yes, but for decades, out of 10 flags paraded by these ejits at matches, demos etc, 4 were usually UJ and 6 the St. George. That may have changed but the negative connotations on the UJ have been well countered by positive fashion and sports images over the years. For example, turning up in the middle of the Sinai desert to see teenagers flogging their wares and wearing Tee-shirts with UJ flags, that beautiful picture of Paula Radcliff holding the UJ after winning the gold medal at the Olympics (?) etc etc.

The cross of St George unfortunately only has that perception among certain sectors of the English. Nobody objects to its use as the Arms of the City of London, and by many organsations, schools etc associated with London. It is also widely found in France, in numerous communes named after St George.

Will, I said sexy!!!![:-))]

 

[/quote]

Edit: Don't get the fonts...

[LanguedocGal]

[quote user="Georgina"][quote user="RumziGal"][quote user="Georgina"][

 [/quote]

[/quote]

France is a mostly catholic country is it not.  I was talking about England being a predominantly Christian country where it has derived its traditions and values!

[/quote]

Serious question. Georgina, could you explain this to a simple-minded atheist, please?

 

[samdebretagne]

Here's a question - are those of you who feel like guests retired?  Or not married to a French national?  Because on second thought, I can see how a retired person, or someone who didn't speak French that well or interact very often with the locals would feel like a guest.  But I have my (French) family here, I work here, I "costise" into the French system, I volunteer, and am an active member of my community, so yes, I definitely feel like something more than a guest just here on holiday.

And thanks for sharing, 5-element, it's interesting to see how you've experienced both sides of the coin.

[Russethouse]

Georgina - Roman Catholics are christians AFAIK! . In France the state is secular so no religion is taught at school.

BTW Please can we stop referring to Muslims solely in the context of some angry group ? There are thousands of muslims all with their own individual take on and adherance to their religion, just like many other faiths.

[LanguedocGal]

[quote user="Russethouse"]
To some extent I agree but I can't help feeling that LG is a tad out of date, the flag of St George is gradually being reclaimed by those more moderate in their views than Mr Griffin and his supporters, which in my view is quite correct, the English should reclaim it as something to be proud of.

I hope the moderate Englishers can reclaim their flag if it’s important to them. Though I poo poo the notion of nationality in our modern globetrotting world, I think identity is very important and some grow up from a young age having to contend with two or more. However, with identity often comes the burden of history. 

As a Brand, ''English'' is at times very positive (Language, literature, music etc) but it's also often a bit of a non-starter on many levels due to history.

As for being seen as  having generally b uggered up a good chunk of the world over a few centuries the English are certainly not the only guilty parties in messing up the world, maybe just the ones who have been made to feel  most guilty and say too little to redress the balance?

I agree and don’t get me started on the ruddy French, Russians, Turks etc. etc and the almighty cock-ups they’re responsible for. I only referred to the English because I was talking about the St. George.

However, even within the Brit Isles, the Englishers need to seduce aplenty to have this symbol ‘’loved’’. A few months ago, I saw the last Ken Loach film with a few local friends. Interestingly, from time to time, ''the English'' was used interchangeably with ''the British'' in a very negative context of course. The French subtitlers had huge problems with this and my friends asked me to explain this use after the film.

I hope the English can reclaim the St.George symbol in a positive light, however, concerning it’s negative image, I still think it’s the Cross they have to bear for a while yet (boom boom!)[;-)]

Oh and by the way God Save Our Gracious Queeen is the British National Anthem, not just the English- so sing up![:)]

Musically, I hate all the Brit Isles anthems – too dull. Oddly, I actually quite like the French and US anthems but my favourite (out of the few I vaguely know) has to be the South African one, especially when sung by those exquisite Zulu voices.

Re French/British nationality and the issue of identity, I wonder how the children of forumers like Miki and Val-2, who moved to France years back, consider themselves. Which national teams do they support?[:)]

PS

I love the idea of a PR agency being retained to give it back its identity. I am proud to be English, but prevented, by English perceptions, from having anything to do with my country's flag. Not that I have any desire to wear it or fly it in a foreign country, but I would like to be able to feel proud to be identiified with it.

Then just take it back - reclaim it! Refuse to buy into the negative side, if we all do it we will not need to spend £££ on some PR agency !

It wouldn't be a waste of £££ if I was freelancing for the PR agency. It would definitely be public money astutely spent.[:D]

 

[/quote]

[Russethouse]

I think you will find that Val & Miki's children are entirely different, while both Val's children look set to make a future in France both Miki's sons have found that there is more opportunity in the UK leaving just his daughter in France.

[Jc]

The Cross of St. George was,of course,originally the flag of Anjou!!

[Patf]

I wonder how the cross of St. George came to represent England? Wasn't it something to do with the Crusades? Another embarrassing part of our history. On the other hand England has done many things to make me, for one, feel proud to be english. but I don't need a flag. Pat.

[Teamedup]

I feel the same Patf.

But, in the eyes of the world that flag represents us and OK people in other countries who aren't happy with 'us' may burn it, but I would object to any foreigner in the UK burning it.  British citizens flag burning, I'm sure would have a very different agenda from foreigners doing it.

Being a guest. Well I never intended staying here for ever so maybe that is why I feel like a guest in France. I see people who do immigrate to France and as was said about some italians in Oz, they actually have no intention of being part of where they live and you can call that immigration, but the locals have to tolerate these people no matter what you call them. I suppose that one is either a guest or one adopts(adapts) where one lives. And a guest can get stuck in and fit in, even if that guest isn't staying[:)]

 

[Jc]

Goes back to the Plantagenets: Richard Coeur de Lion and all that!!!!

[Russethouse]

It wasn't long ago that someone here was telling me that a large part of our British royalty was French at that time, lets blame them ![;-)]

http://www.englishmonarchs.co.uk/plantagenet_2.htm

Yep - I blame his mother......[:)]

[powerdesal]

[quote user="5-element"]

As for the topic of flags, I find it very hard to relate to the level of excitement it generates - although I am very aware of those who lost their lives proudly carrying the flag of their nation, I am aware of the symbol it carries and still....deep down, I feel I would have no trouble burning any flag, desecrating it, as I cannot feel loyalty to a piece of cloth, just as I cannot feel pride for the accident of my birth.

[/quote]

It is not loyalty to a piece of cloth.  It is loyalty to what that piece of cloth represents. I believe that burning / desecrating a countries flag is definitely insulting to those who have pride in what that flag represents.

There are a lot of things wrong with England's behaviour  in the past, but an awful lot of things right too. I am proud of my heritage, I love lots of things about England / Britain / U.K........but that doesn't mean I have to live there, or even want to live there (at the moment).

[oglefakes]

[quote user="powerdesal"]

There are a lot of things wrong with England's behaviour  in the past, but an awful lot of things right too. I am proud of my heritage, I love lots of things about England / Britain / U.K........but that doesn't mean I have to live there, or even want to live there (at the moment).

[/quote]

Who said, "I'd die for England, just don't make me live there"? Or words to that effect.

[PossumGirl]

[quote user="samdebretagne"]Here's a question - are those of you who feel like guests retired?  Or not married to a French national?  Because on second thought, I can see how a retired person, or someone who didn't speak French that well or interact very often with the locals would feel like a guest.  But I have my (French) family here, I work here, I "costise" into the French system, I volunteer, and am an active member of my community, so yes, I definitely feel like something more than a guest just here on holiday.

And thanks for sharing, 5-element, it's interesting to see how you've experienced both sides of the coin.

[/quote]

Sam, I also don't feel like a guest and I know Mr. P never felt like one, even in his earliest days in the U.S.  Perhaps you're right that sharing the language, having family here, etc. changes things.  I've always known, since the earliest days of our marriage, that if anything ever happened to Mr. P, or I was in need in any way, that my French family would be there for me probably more than my own family in the U.S.  It's very comforting and contributes to making me feel that I "belong."

PG

[Georgina]

[quote user="PossumGirl"][quote user="samdebretagne"]Here's a question - are those of you who feel like guests retired?  Or not married to a French national?  Because on second thought, I can see how a retired person, or someone who didn't speak French that well or interact very often with the locals would feel like a guest.  But I have my (French) family here, I work here, I "costise" into the French system, I volunteer, and am an active member of my community, so yes, I definitely feel like something more than a guest just here on holiday.

And thanks for sharing, 5-element, it's interesting to see how you've experienced both sides of the coin.
[/quote]

Sam, I also don't feel like a guest and I know Mr. P never felt like one, even in his earliest days in the U.S.  Perhaps you're right that sharing the language, having family here, etc. changes things.  I've always known, since the earliest days of our marriage, that if anything ever happened to Mr. P, or I was in need in any way, that my French family would be there for me probably more than my own family in the U.S.  It's very comforting and contributes to making me feel that I "belong."

PG
[/quote]

You just cannot compare people without French relations to those with and married to French people. It obviously will be a totally different perspective.  I was talking about respecting traditions and values as a guest would, you are taking the word "guest" too literally and out of context.

RH "Georgina - Roman Catholics are christians AFAIK! . In France the state is secular so no religion is taught at school."

Whatever,...... we were actually talking about England though , I really don't know about France's reasons for not doing religion in school but I doubt if they would be worried about offending everybody. But that is too off the topic.

Georgina

[Teamedup]

I agree Georgina that anyone living somewhere with a person from that country should have a different perspective on life in that country to foreigners moving there.

What always always gets me is how many questions are asked on here by people who have a french spouse and could just get their other half to ring, write or ask around when it pertains to very french things. To say I find it odd sometimes, is an understatement.

[Georgina]

Yes, tres bizarre. [:D]

Georgina

[PossumGirl]

[quote user="Teamedup"]

What always always gets me is how many questions are asked on here by people who have a french spouse and could just get their other half to ring, write or ask around when it pertains to very french things. To say I find it odd sometimes, is an understatement.

[/quote]

Well, my French spouse never lived in France as an adult until we moved here together.  There are many things about living in France that he knows as little about as I do, just as there are many subjects that he knows nothing about because he's never had to deal with them before.  If I have a question about food, cooking or something to do with clothing, it's as foreign to him in French, English or Greek.  He wouldn't have a clue as to where to look, call or ask, so why not ask here where someone may have the answer?

PG

[Jc]

Now they're all German!!!