smudger Posted April 1, 2007 Share Posted April 1, 2007 Well, this is my last missive. I’m outta here next Wednesdayafter 6 years in France.Not going back to Blighty or even to Spainbut, strangely, to Northern Ireland. It’s going to be a great place tolive in the next few years.But any newcomers/aspirants to living in France might do worse than note (orignore) my own hard-earned experiences. Consider seriously your own needs and requirements. If you regard moving to France as a way of resolving unsuccessful UK business, financial or personal relationships, you are doomed to failure. A failure in the UK (or anywhere else) definitely means a failure in France. Secondly, forget the oft quoted “you must learn French asap”. Yes, it’s useful but it’s not the key to living in France. You’ll never get your French up enough to talk fluently and eloquently as you would (hopefully) in your own native language, unless you marry a French person or have a viable business in France. You will need a raison d’etre for living in France. Fishing, golf, wine-making, or something else, that keeps you intellectually and physically challengedThirdly, the French are not very interesting. In fact they are quite miserable. You will find loads of French ‘professional’ French folk who will lament the dearth of work-ethic, etc. amongst their compatriots – but who will be as incompetent and idle as your worst English slackers. You can wax lyrical about the French countryside, cassoulet, quaint local customs (eg. force feeding geese to make make foie gras) and dubious (but cheap) wine but after a couple of weeks you’ll be yearning for a Tesco and decent vegetables (cabbage and potatoes, mostly). And remember you can get as much as you want of the French countryside by going on holiday, rather than living there.It ain’t cheaper than the UK in the long run. Housing is cheap but cost of purchase, maintenance, insurance, heating oil, electricity, taxes habitation and foncieres is way high. And if you earn decent money they’ll take it away in tax.And finally take, with a pinch of salt, those stories of idyllic bucolia that the us Brits are so keen to promulgate. Sometimes folk can over-egg their puddings. Having said all that, I’ll still have a holiday bolt-hole inFranceand still love to bits my seven French friends Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrCanary Posted April 1, 2007 Share Posted April 1, 2007 Thank you and good night! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugsy Posted April 1, 2007 Share Posted April 1, 2007 Well Good Luck to you Smudger,Having failed in the UK and then in France, maybe Ireland will be 'Third Time Lucky' for you.Please close the door on your way out..................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted April 1, 2007 Share Posted April 1, 2007 What he says sounds pretty sensible and non-controversial to me. Instead of dismissive one-liners, explain to us how he is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugsy Posted April 1, 2007 Share Posted April 1, 2007 I wasn't being dismissive Dick, I actually wished him Good Luck in his new venture................ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tresco Posted April 1, 2007 Share Posted April 1, 2007 Smudger,There's a great deal of truth in what you say about France and aspects of life here which people, especially (but not exclusively) those who are not planning on a simple retirement move, would do very well to consider, . I know and love N. Ireland and would have loved to have moved there, but OH won the day with that particular discussion. Things were not looking quite as good as they are now, and I backed down pretty quickly. I hope things work out very well for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anton Redman Posted April 1, 2007 Share Posted April 1, 2007 Consider seriously your own needs and requirements. - Agree You will need a raison d’etre for living in France. Agree but my reason for living in France is living in France. The language helps, I can joke in French and you miss a huge amount without it. Bed is not the only way being stuck with no TV and having to both work and socialise in French helps.Thirdly, the French are not very interesting. Depends who you meet and where. Know a chaterlain who is great fun, speaks the Queen’s English immaculately and won’t use it in France. Ex neighbour spent the second World War off Scotland in a Free French Corvette. Local garage owner definitely has and need a work ethic. I could not get enough of the French countryside before I retired. About once a month I have an attack of ready meal. Otherwise we eat with the seasons and eat fresh, well and mostly at home. Local rates versus UK depend on where you left in the UK. Agree on tax.I am happy and content here whereas I would not be in the UK. I might go somewhere else but I am not going back.Agree with your analysis on NI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgina Posted April 1, 2007 Share Posted April 1, 2007 [quote user="Dick Smith"]What he says sounds pretty sensible and non-controversial to me. Instead of dismissive one-liners, explain to us how he is wrong.[/quote]Gosh, kettle and frying pan springs to mind.Georgina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted April 1, 2007 Share Posted April 1, 2007 What?Out of the kettle into the frying pan?Or the kettle calling the frying pan black?Or aren't I allowed to ask questions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrCanary Posted April 1, 2007 Share Posted April 1, 2007 Of course you are allowed to ask questions, Dick. In fact, that is all you ever seem to do, question almost everything that anybody else says on here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted April 1, 2007 Share Posted April 1, 2007 Better than banning them, eh, Mel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Val_2 Posted April 1, 2007 Share Posted April 1, 2007 Smudger has given it six years here, a great deal longer than a lot of other folks have managed, most of the people I have seen go back over the years havn't got past three years here and they all had one thing in common, they kept going back every few months for visits and apart from the cost aspect they all missed their families more and more and the previous social lives they had which did not exist here. A lot come because its the trend, some for experience and some because stupidly they think its utopia compared to the UK - just look below the rose tinted surface and read the papers and see french TV for the crimes,racial problems and social deprivation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugsy Posted April 1, 2007 Share Posted April 1, 2007 C'mon, Teamedup, you know you want to comment on this......................[:)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Katie Posted April 1, 2007 Share Posted April 1, 2007 Bugbear, I dont think TU will be posting on this forum again. You can speak to her though on Possum Girls Forum http://www.possumworld.com/ In fact there are lots of members over there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Head Posted April 1, 2007 Share Posted April 1, 2007 You're spot on Smudger, your observations are clearly born through experience, the lessons are clear and great!Why morph into yet another internet nobody Mel? You're a good bloke, you don't need to hide behind an alias. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Katie Posted April 1, 2007 Share Posted April 1, 2007 Who is Mel? What have I missed? Did Morph used to post on this forum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreizeVents Posted April 1, 2007 Share Posted April 1, 2007 [quote user="smudger"]... 2. Secondly, forget the oft quoted “you must learn French asap”. Yes, it’s useful but it’s not the key to living in France. You’ll never get your French up enough to talk fluently and eloquently as you would (hopefully) in your own native language, unless you marry a French person or have a viable business in France ...3. Thirdly, the French are not very interesting. .... ......... [/quote]Smudger has already made his or her choice, so I guess we arewriting for those who come after. Or for ourselves. I think he haswritten well and has seen some things I have seen too. I only havecomments on his second and third points. The others just don't tap intomy own experience. Or I think he is wrong.I think being able to speak French fluently and comfortably, in varioussettings, and in various registers is utterly crucial to me (and maybe toothers). I will probably end up leaving France because I just can't getit together to learn enough French. Maybe if my French partner wouldallow me to speak French at home (my French hurts my French partner's ears) ...maybe if I worked here ... maybe if I studied harder ... maybe if my kids wentto school here ... maybe I would be able to speak better French. But Ican't, and for me, this is the most important contribution to a successfulsettlement in France. So I think that Smudger is dead wrong, and if I knewanything about how he lives, I bet I could say why. If you have the kindof life where French people as a “background” to your life and not an intimatepart of it, then I can understand why language skill is not important. Ishould add that I can easily hold my own in a dinner party, in a cafe, I canread anything, understand a lecture or a TV programme entirely, as well aswatch dubbed movies (that was hardest to suffer through). But that is notthe same thing as being comfortable and fluent in French.Secondly,where I live, in France Profonde, but in a town of 6,500, and in myneighbourhood, I find the French people to be utterly unfriendly. Notsuperficially unfriendly, when I go to the market or a public event there aremany people I talk to and sit with and so forth. I also have two majorgroups of French people I hang with, but its not the same. I would saythat if I left this town and the surroundings, there would be maybe two orthree French people that I would miss in any way at all. Fiveyears! They are, here in my town, so wrapped up in childhood buddies andfamily that there really is no room for anyone else. No deep room,especially for someone whose French is not really good. On the otherhand, I hang with a number of English speakers in Montpellier, and there is noproblem at all. I have made lifetime pals there in only two years. I would miss them. Somehow, the French people around here are closed off,not interested in, and even wary of foreigners. This is not so true inthe small villages and hamlets around here, just in our town. This iswell-known to all local people, although we didn’t know it when we movedhere. There are simply too many locals in our town, and they keep tothemselves. We picked the wrong place. We should have been in thecountryside or in the big city. In Montpellier or in the small hamlets,more people are incomers and they are more open and friendly. Also moreinteresting. Those who live nearby, but not in town, are more oftenbi-cultural couples, who by definition are more open to foreigners. Idoubt if I shall ever be big mates with any pure French couple, or Frenchperson who does not have any foreign linguistic or cultural experience AsI get to know people in our town, as my French has got better, I realise I justdon't find them very interesting. Like Smudger, although maybe fordifferent reasons. By the way, since I am stuck here, I hope I am wrongabout the previous understanding.Just my additions to a very intelligent little evaluation of Smudger's. Good luck to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumziGal Posted April 2, 2007 Share Posted April 2, 2007 [quote user="TreizeVents"][Secondly, where I live, in France Profonde, but in a town of 6,500, and in my neighbourhood, I find the French people to be utterly unfriendly. Not superficially unfriendly, when I go to the market or a public event there are many people I talk to and sit with and so forth. I also have two major groups of French people I hang with, but its not the same. I would say that if I left this town and the surroundings, there would be maybe two or three French people that I would miss in any way at all. Five years! They are, here in my town, so wrapped up in childhood buddies and family that there really is no room for anyone else. [/quote]I too have recently been considering this aspect of my life in France. Many French people have told me that superficial friendliness is typical of the South, and people will be all over you at first, but just out of nosiness (or curiosity, that sounds less harsh!). Once they know what they want to know, you won't see them again.I did have problems in believing that at first, but as time has gone on I find that it has a certain amount of truth. Those who seemed to think that contact with an English speaker would somehow magically make their children fully bilingual in minutes, for example, they were probably the first to go! [:)] As for making friends. Well, I've been saddened by this too, and started to wonder what I was doing wrong. Then I looked back at all the things I'd done in France, and it occurred to me that "meeting people" or "making friends" is clearly just not an aim in itself for French people. I have done a pile of classes and courses here, and while people may well be perfectly sociable for that hour, when it's finished it's finished. They're there to do that activity, it's all very functional, and after that it's as-you-were. I have plenty of material things to show from my various classes, but nothing to do with humans.It could of course just be a regional thing, like so much in France. But oh boy, do I find the southern English open and friendly and receptive after living in the south of France! [:)] The things that others complain about in England - shop assistants talking on the phone, whatever, that's just absolutely normal for me in France! Anyway, to end on a high note [;-)] after all that, I think I might actually have made a new friend. You know who you are! [:-))] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistral Posted April 2, 2007 Share Posted April 2, 2007 [quote user="TreizeVents"] I doubt if I shall ever be big mates with ......... French person who does not have any foreign linguistic or cultural experience .[/quote]I've noticed this too. I have friends who have never even left the region, but the people I feel closer to are generally those who have lived abroad or speak another language fluently. (usually both) But i expect I would be the same now if I lived in the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pangur Posted April 2, 2007 Share Posted April 2, 2007 But this superficial unfriendliness is not just a French characteristic. It's probably more to do with small town mentalities. I know many English people who have had the exact same problem when moving to Ireland. No problem chatting to people in the pub or finding people to have a night out with, but you can find it very difficult as a "blow-in" to really make friends with the Irish, unless you have an "in", like an Irish partner. You often need a personal connection - even in Dublin, which can be an amazingly cliquish city, even if you're from there. And this in a country that speaks the same language. In our village in France, some of the friendliest people are those who have moved from other regions of France, and they complain about the coldness of the locals. I'm sure those from our village would say the exact same if the shoe was on the other foot... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Posted April 2, 2007 Share Posted April 2, 2007 They all seem reasonable points, which have been made plenty of times before.I would agree that they are not peculiar to France. To move to (or leave) somewhere you need positive reasons (e.g you like France) rather than negative ones (you don't like bureaucrats, high charges, Jacques Chirac, Tony Blair or whatever). Problems you have in one place have a nasty habit of surfacing in other places too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iceni Posted April 2, 2007 Share Posted April 2, 2007 [quote user="Will"]Problems you have in one place have a nasty habit of surfacing in other places too.[/quote]Possibly/probably because "you" (no, not you Will) are the problem ? Just because others succeed or fail with a new life in France, Ireland, Manchester etc is no indicator as to how I might or might not get on .I suspect that many expats are seduced by the tranquil French life that they see on their holidays without really appreciating the difficulties of leaving a city, town or even large village in England for an introspective possibly incestuous hamlet up a hill in the middle of nowhere. Any minor difficulty with a neighbour is magnified by differences in culture and language and as for bureaucracy .... not even the French understand let alone justify some of the things.All the "beware of" points made in this thread have been made on many previous occasions on this forum and doubtless will again but may help to clear the rose tinted specs that most of us have but tend to deny. Johnnot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Zoff Posted April 2, 2007 Share Posted April 2, 2007 Adverse reactions to the original post suggest insecurity in those it has upset. It contains some useful warnings to anyone moving anywhere. We are all different but in many ways we are all the same - Dick will no doubt have an apt quote. If the post helps people to avoid having unrealistic expectations and to look into things they may otherwise have overlooked, then it is useful. But beyond that, each should make his own informed choice based on his own research and on what is really important to him and his family. (Before anyone starts, for "him" read "him/her".) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugsy Posted April 2, 2007 Share Posted April 2, 2007 [quote user="Alan Zoff"]Adverse reactions to the original post suggest insecurity in those it has upset. [/quote]Of course it does Alan..........................................................................Keep taking those tablets.....................................................................[:)][:)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monika Posted April 2, 2007 Share Posted April 2, 2007 I too have recently been considering this aspect of my life in France. Many French people have told me that superficial friendliness is typical of the South, and people will be all over you at first, but just out of nosiness (or curiosity, that sounds less harsh!). Once they know what they want to know, you won't see them again. My english sister in law who lives in Canada complains about exactly the same thing, that all friendships with Canadiens are superficial and a friend of mine (also english) says exactly the same thing about the Americans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now