rural poverty

[Chancer]

[quote user="NormanH"][quote user="Chancer"][/quote]

One man's meat....
I consume oysters with a glass or two of white wine most Saturdays on out local producers' market.
Cost €4 on average
Does that make me rich?
I do not smoke, and do not run a car.

[/quote]

I was more referring to the abundant conspicuous consumption that goes on at many French households over a period of many consecutive days resulting in a crise de foie.

My treat once or twice a month is to have a Halal kebab at the arab market where I buy or glane my veg, cost €3.50.

Perhaps the key thing is to stop deciding ourselves whether people are poor because they live in dark conditions or dress in tatty clothes or their means are below some ridiculous figure of 60% of the average, many people including are happy to do so, and whilst I am not doing it myself to save to have a blow out during family fêtes those that do have made the choice and probably resent being thought of as poor, on the other hand many of the current generation think they are poor of they dont have the latest widescreen TV, mobile phone, satellite systems and other things whose names are but a mystery to me, Blackberries, Kindles, the list goes on.

They were collecting for les restos du coeur in Lidl recently, I bought and donated a couple of bags of pasta and a block of English cheddar (I had gone to buy one for myself) the lady collecting took one look at my bag of groceries and said that perhaps I was equally in need of what I had donated, she said it very kindly and seemed compassionate so I took the time to explain that for me the cheddar was a luxury and I could not enjoy it with a clear conscience without doing my bit for those in genuine need.

[woolybanana]

[quote user="NormanH"][quote user="Chancer"][/quote]

One man's meat....
I consume oysters with a glass or two of white wine most Saturdays on out local producers' market.
Cost €4 on average
Does that make me rich?
I do not smoke, and do not run a car.

[/quote]

Yes, Norman, true, but you do own three properties, so your decision is perhaps engendered by frugality rather than poverty. The comments that some choose not to consume conspicuously seem pertinent.

Or perhaps your barrel needs new guttering?

[cooperlola]

I well remember when we were first married and living in the Medway towns, there was notorious street down which we drove on a regular basis.  It was the very epitome of urban poverty - full of broken down, vandalised cars, graffiti covered walls and filthy houses with ill-clothed occupants.  My understanding is that this arae hasn't changed much in recent years either. Rural France is not the only place where poverty exists and we should not forget this, as 5E so rightly points out. 

Quillan, I agree with you, but no doubt the general red-top response to aid of this sort would just be "tell them to go out and get jobs and work like everybody else."[:@] 

5-E what do you think is to blame here?  Is high umemployment at the root of this?

[Gardengirl]

None of us can know how impoverished people are from appearances, whether where we live now or where we've come from. I know there are many people in very poor circumstances where we live in France, and the numbers receiving food parcels etc from various charitable concerns are rising rapidly each year. It's a busy little tourist town, and the wealth shown by many visitors must make those who see them feel it all the more; there are also a lot of people begging regularly around town.

We also live in a fairly wealthy area in UK, but there are also many very poor people. I know from experience that many children don't have suitable clothing for the weather, who receive free meals at school and who don't have proper food until the next day's free meal. I also see many people begging there.

I don't give money to anyone begging wherever I am, but I donate regularly to charities and to food collections and I'm happy to buy a drink and sandwich for anyone begging if they'll accept it.

We were extremely poor when I was a child, but I didn't realise the position we were in, as all my friends were more or less in the same boat; any families who might have had a little more had the good sense not to let it show. I didn't realise properly until I went to grammar school at age 11, when I met girls from a wider area, some of whose families were verywealthy. Today it must be a lot harder, when adverts are everywhere, and even fairly young children walk around with smart phones, and are dressed in the latest fashions etc.

 

[Frederick]

[quote user="pachapapa"]I am so poor I have to burn poplar....cant afford pine.[/quote]

Poplar ! You are rich...I have to burn old pallets ...

 

[Christine Animal]

[quote user="Chancer"]

They were collecting for les restos du coeur in Lidl recently, I bought and donated a couple of bags of pasta and a block of English cheddar (I had gone to buy one for myself) the lady collecting took one look at my bag of groceries and said that perhaps I was equally in need of what I had donated, she said it very kindly and seemed compassionate so I took the time to explain that for me the cheddar was a luxury and I could not enjoy it with a clear conscience without doing my bit for those in genuine need.

[/quote]

 

I enjoyed reading that.   [:)]

 

[Gluestick]

Adam Smith, the father of modern economic theory stated that poverty is relative to the wealth of those around.

In the UK we live in a reasonably affluent area: expensive cars and many properties selling for upwards of £1 million: and many for considerably more.

Some years ago I ran a government-funded Urban Regeneration Project and then had at my disposal (And was compelled to study same) demographics for the area and was very surprised to realise the level of social deprivation existing: and this was reinforced when I went, unusually, to certain social housing areas, which I would never have visited.

One project - brand new; local authority and the Guinness Trust - replaced very poor 1930s Jerry Built council housing with modern rows of excellent semi-detached houses and flats: I was staggered to learn from the demographics that the core adult unemployment level was circa 90%. No typo: that is 90%. Yet within less than one mile, a posh estate of superior five and four bed houses was selling for up to £1 Million.

Some contrast.

France has always tended to be a "Poor" country: in 1957 when France joined the new EEC, circa 90% of the private  sector workforce were engaged in agriculture. As CAP aid is reduced, rural poverty is an increasing problem in "Our" part of France, as it is almost all farming.

But then effective poverty is also a rapidly increasing problem in both the UK and USA, too. Particularly child poverty.

As the Great Divide between the Haves and the Have-Nots accelerates at ever-increasing pace, such problems, all too sadly, will rapidly increase.

I am involved in a project which encompasses an Outreach Service which amongst other facets, takes unwanted food from a major supermarket and provides meals for the poor and homeless: our Anglican church is to participate in what is a rapidly growing national charity: the sheer demand and need is quite astounding.

And, this is not Britain in the peak of the Great Depression in the 1930s: it is Britain, today, in the 21st century, in an age of, for some, opulence, privilege, obscene conspicuous consumption and glitter.

[Pommier]

Re Quillans comment on Irish property (tried to quote, but for some reason it didn't!)

Their houses USED to be worth 1M euros, now it's 300.000 and falling.

A problem which isn't solved by money is how to educate the feckless poor to spend their money more wisely.

[NormanH]

[quote user="Pommier"]Re Quillans comment on Irish property (tried to quote, but for some reason it didn't!)

Their houses USED to be worth 1M euros, now it's 300.000 and falling.

A problem which isn't solved by money is how to educate the feckless poor to spend their money more wisely.[/quote]

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=4743

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Pommier"]A problem which isn't solved by money is how to educate the feckless poor to spend their money more wisely.[/quote]Because let's face it - the  reason they're poor is that they're thick, innit?

[Quillan]

[quote user="Pommier"]Re Quillans comment on Irish property (tried to quote, but for some reason it didn't!) Their houses USED to be worth 1M euros, now it's 300.000 and falling. A problem which isn't solved by money is how to educate the feckless poor to spend their money more wisely.[/quote]

In another thread somebody put up a current link to a Irish estate agent and commented how in fact the prices have not really dropped, most of the houses were over 1M Euros and they didn't look that 'special'.

[Quillan]

[quote user="NormanH"][quote user="Pommier"]Re Quillans comment on Irish property (tried to quote, but for some reason it didn't!) Their houses USED to be worth 1M euros, now it's 300.000 and falling. A problem which isn't solved by money is how to educate the feckless poor to spend their money more wisely.[/quote]

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=4743
[/quote]

Well Norm bet you never thought you would see the day when the Socialist Worker actually agreed with the Tories i.e. and to quote "the government should provide universal benefits" which is exactly what the Tories are going to do, get rid of this massive complex system and just make a one off payment.

I do think that the report is a bit naive, to suggest that young women for instance don't make themselves poor by having 5 or six kids is stupid. They have these kids, its like a job to them, the more they have the more money they get from the state plus houses and other benefits and more often the money goes in their pocket and not spent on the kids for whom it is given. They see it as an occupation and often have the kids by multiple fathers. On the other hand not all young (or older) single mothers go down that route, they work to support their kids. The UK has to get out of this culture of rewarding women for having loads of children, in my opinion tax credit, child allowance or whatever you wish to call it should be limited to the first two children.

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Quillan"]

[quote user="NormanH"][quote user="Pommier"]Re Quillans comment on Irish property (tried to quote, but for some reason it didn't!) Their houses USED to be worth 1M euros, now it's 300.000 and falling. A problem which isn't solved by money is how to educate the feckless poor to spend their money more wisely.[/quote]

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=4743
[/quote]

Well Norm bet you never thought you would see the day when the Socialist Worker actually agreed with the Tories i.e. and to quote "the government should provide universal benefits" which is exactly what the Tories are going to do, get rid of this massive complex system and just make a one off payment.

I do think that the report is a bit naive, to suggest that young women for instance don't make themselves poor by having 5 or six kids is stupid. They have these kids, its like a job to them, the more they have the more money they get from the state plus houses and other benefits and more often the money goes in their pocket and not spent on the kids for whom it is given. They see it as an occupation and often have the kids by multiple fathers. On the other hand not all young (or older) single mothers go down that route, they work to support their kids. The UK has to get out of this culture of rewarding women for having loads of children, in my opinion tax credit, child allowance or whatever you wish to call it should be limited to the first two children.

[/quote]Oh, Quillan, sorry but it takes two people to have sex.  It's as much the responsibility of the man to make sure that proper birth control is used - for lots of reasons apart from the population explosion.  Yes, I am quite sure that women exist who do this but to suggest that all unmarried women with more than two kids are in that position in order to make a buck is ridiculous, and insulting to boot.  Every time I hear this silly argument for limiting child benefit my blood boils. 

[Pommier]

[quote user="cooperlola"][quote user="Pommier"]A problem which isn't solved by money is how to educate the feckless poor to spend their money more wisely.[/quote]Because let's face it - the  reason they're poor is that they're thick, innit?[/quote] Gosh, you're a bit harsh aren't you? Yes, some poor people will no doubt be 'thick', but it's the ones who waste their limited money on convenience foods rather than cooking better, cheaper meals who need re-educating so that they are better able to budget and give their families a decent life.

[Russethouse]

How many children do you have Q ?

[Jay]

Lots of people agree with Q http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11837538 - Well one at least!

[Richard51]

The problem is that it's very hard to have a kid as a single parent and go back to work.  Most low paid work requires shift and / or out of hours working and there is no child care provision available in the evenings and at the weekend.  The child care initiatives of the Labour government helped the middle class / married couples not poor single parents.

Mrs R51

[Quillan]

[quote user="cooperlola"][quote user="Quillan"]

[quote user="NormanH"][quote user="Pommier"]Re Quillans comment on Irish property (tried to quote, but for some reason it didn't!) Their houses USED to be worth 1M euros, now it's 300.000 and falling. A problem which isn't solved by money is how to educate the feckless poor to spend their money more wisely.[/quote]

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=4743
[/quote]

Well Norm bet you never thought you would see the day when the Socialist Worker actually agreed with the Tories i.e. and to quote "the government should provide universal benefits" which is exactly what the Tories are going to do, get rid of this massive complex system and just make a one off payment.

I do think that the report is a bit naive, to suggest that young women for instance don't make themselves poor by having 5 or six kids is stupid. They have these kids, its like a job to them, the more they have the more money they get from the state plus houses and other benefits and more often the money goes in their pocket and not spent on the kids for whom it is given. They see it as an occupation and often have the kids by multiple fathers. On the other hand not all young (or older) single mothers go down that route, they work to support their kids. The UK has to get out of this culture of rewarding women for having loads of children, in my opinion tax credit, child allowance or whatever you wish to call it should be limited to the first two children.

[/quote]Oh, Quillan, sorry but it takes two people to have sex.  It's as much the responsibility of the man to make sure that proper birth control is used - for lots of reasons apart from the population explosion.  Yes, I am quite sure that women exist who do this but to suggest that all unmarried women with more than two kids are in that position in order to make a buck is ridiculous, and insulting to boot.  Every time I hear this silly argument for limiting child benefit my blood boils. 

[/quote]

I agree it takes two, there's only been one virginal conception in history so we are told but somehow I doubt even that. As unpalatable as it is there are women who do go down this route. They often tell the man they are on the pill but the idiot is so stupid he still does not wear a condom. He will be, just like the woman, unemployed so there is not chance of getting any money out of him to contribute towards supporting the child. He has probably also got more children with multiple women as well none of which he supports. I am not saying that women in these cases are stupid, far from it they are quite cleaver and play the system accordingly. My opinion is that in these cases both the adults are responsible and not society.

I deliberately didn't label all single women the same, I have highlighted my comment for you just in case you missed it. I also think that in this day and age two children, if you can afford them, is quite sufficient. If you want more then that's fine but you pay for them, if I were a UK tax payer why should I after all it's 'your' choice. On the other hand there are loads of single parents out there both male and female who may of started off in a relationship but it may of failed or worse, the partner may have died. This is a totally different situation and should not be compared with the others.

[Richard51]

[quote user="Jay"]Lots of people agree with Q http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11837538 - Well one at least!

[/quote]

Well that's a load of b*****s!!  I, and most of my (middle class) colleagues have been asking for years why the government continues to pay child benefit to middle class families who don't need it.  IMHO child benefit should be stopped period - and the money saved used to allow kids to go to university based on merit not on the basis of whether their parents can afford.  There are too many Beckham and similar degrees about.  Ideally degrees should be sponsored by industry - this would match courses to available jobs.

[Richard51]

If a bloke is stupid enough not to use protection he deserves the CSA bill.  IMHO all men should be required to provide their NI number when the birth is registered.  Provision by the mother of said number should suffice.

[Quillan]

[quote user="Russethouse"]
How many children do you have Q ?
[/quote]

Just the one, I would have liked another but situations change and it was not financially viable to have anymore at that time and by the time things improved we thought it would not be such a good idea (for many reasons but age also came in to it)

[Quillan]

[quote user="Richard51"]If a bloke is stupid enough not to use protection he deserves the CSA bill.  IMHO all men should be required to provide their NI number when the birth is registered.  Provision by the mother of said number should suffice.
[/quote]

But what if he is unemployed?

[Richard51]

Benefits should require some sort of an input to the community.  I'm sure that there are a huge range of jobs that could be undertaken by the unemployed...and many disabled.

And before anyone shouts - I'm disabled.

Mrs R51

[Russethouse]

The trick will be to bring all the children up well and educate them so they can work and pay tax and NI, and contribute to our pensions.[:)]

[Richard51]

Problem is - how do parents (who have had a crap upbringing themselves) supposed to parent? They don't know how.  For those seriously deprived kids, social services budget for the current financial year...and offer care accordingly.  Viz - never mind the future costs - how little money can we get away with investing now?