Whatever happened to the English language?

[Etoile]

Whatever happened to the English language? This site is unbelievable.

http://4wayrelocation.webs.com/

[Chrissie]

Looks like those instructions you get that have been translated directly from Japanese or whatever!!

Chrissie (81)

[JSKS]

Maybe English is not the author's first language (probably about their 4th or 5th I would imagine). Almost every schoolchild's error is in there or should I say ''nearly evry schoolchilds error is in their''?

[Mr Coeur de Lion]

I'm doing a course in web design next semester and one of the assignments is to find three sites with good design and three with bad design.

This most certainly fits the bad design criteria. Poor presentation, boring design, unprofessional looking and of course, above all, poor communication skills.

I hope for their sakes, it is purely a draft, because they won't make any money from it otherwise.

[Alex H]

[quote user="Mr Coeur de Lion"]I'm doing a course in web design next semester and one of the assignments is to find three sites with good design and three with bad design.

This most certainly fits the bad design criteria. Poor presentation, boring design, unprofessional looking and of course, above all, poor communication skills.

I hope for their sakes, it is purely a draft, because they won't make any money from it otherwise.[/quote]

I think you may get a few bad ones here http://www.webpagesthatsuck.com/ :-)

I'm with JK - it's obviously not a 'first language'. And if you want to do it on the cheap - do it yourself. Not all 'professionals' are value for money, especially in the web arena.

[woolybanana]

The English language is international and not the property of any one nation any more and is evolving according to need. This site, however simple and basic, is clearly written by non-native speakers, and is a tribute to the spread of the language. Please do not see it negatively.

Remember that you can travel to most parts of the world these days and will find English speakers, most of whom have not had the opportunity to spend time in an English speaking country. This is because the teaching of the language worldwide which has evolved at lightspeed since the second half of the last century.

As to the site itself, it has to be work in progress.

[idun]

I do wish I was capable of writing as Wooly just has. Just what I would have liked to say.

[suej]

[quote user="idun"]

I do wish I was capable of writing as Wooly just has. Just what I would have liked to say.

[/quote]

 

 I second that!

I realise that, much as I love french, I no doubt continue to make loads of mistakes that I am not even aware of  [correction: 'of which I am not even aware'  !! ] I have nothing but admiration for folks who struggle to master that which is my mother-tongue.

 

 

[just john]

[quote user="woolybanana"] Remember that you can travel to most parts of the world these days and will find English speakers, most of whom have not had the opportunity to spend time in an English speaking country. This is because the teaching of the language worldwide which has evolved at lightspeed since the second half of the last century. [/quote]

English? . . .really?; work in progress, yes[6]

[idun]

My written english is a work in, well, I'd like to say progress, but it isn't.[:(] As I have said recently, I feel rather 'semi lingual' these days.It wasn't as if my written english was ever good, those grammer or is it grammar lessons were a nightmare for me, strangely algebra classes were a dream.

I live with people who speak french and english and so we do speak franglais a lot.  My british friends in France, who lived quite some distance from us are all french speaking too and we also speak franglais when we get together, it was just done so naturally.

As long as people can understand what someone is trying to say, does it matter how 'good' their written work is, unless they are trying to write a great work of literature? or maybe it does.[:)]

[Mr Coeur de Lion]

If you are shown two businesses offering the same product for the same price, and one presents itself professionally and in excellent English while the other is extremely poor and unprofessional, which one would you choose?

[woolybanana]

But, say you were in Hong Kong, would you accept Indian English, Chinglish or UK or US English? It would depend on who you were targetting. But there would be differences in the language that another national might not find acceptable.

What usually happens, I think, in the case of sites like this, is that they start off with what language resources they have and then graduate to something 'better' later, if the project seems to be taking off.

At this stage, the English may have been written by someone who thinks they are better than they are, maybe the partner of one of the site's owners, for example.

But, it could be a lot worse. I challenge you to write the same in French to a commercial standard.

[Mr Coeur de Lion]

You see, I don't think it is run by non English speakers. I think if it were, there would be two versions, the native language of the people and English.

[idun]

Or maybe the poor souls are just like me and when they write in english, it is la merde?

And if it was aimed at 'me' then I'm not sure I would really notice. I would if I were reading a book, but not in the general jargon. Business people, it has to be said, invented and propogated their own language some time ago and a lot of it is beyond me anyway.

I'm not thick, but I am also not the brightest person I know, Madame Moyenne really for lots of things in life. [:)]

[cooperlola]

[quote user="woolybanana"]

 I challenge you to write the same in French to a commercial standard.

[/quote]I couldn't. 

However, if I were serious about my business appealing to an English speaking market then I would invest a bit of cash getting a competent English speaker to check it over for me.  Professionally presented advertising, promotion and marketing gives the impression - true or not - that the business itself is similarly professionally run, so to my mind it would be worth a bit extra to get the basics right.  The snag, of course, is that if it's not your native language, then how do you know if the person you are paying is truly competent?  I have a friend who is a copy writer (that's his car in my avatar) and his English grammar is appalling - however, he can string a sentence together and convey his point so his ads are all over the telly in the UK.  But I wouldn't employ him as a proof reader![:-))]

[Chancer]

Compared to many restaurant menus and general information signs in France that are written in English the website scores 99.99 out of 100.

If like me you kindly point out to the hapless business owner that what they have had printed at great cost is total gibberish and offer to correct it for free you will most likely learn that they have in fact paid a professional translator to do it, I just dont get why the French seem to think they must use a French national rather than a native speaking translator. The local tourist office and the community de communes refused point blank to use the services of an English translator (she was registered) even when offered gratis, their publicity is laughable as are the supposed English names that they dream up and pressurise local tourist businesses to use.

My favorite local one is "Lorry drivers, march on the back step!" the French text reads "routiers, roulez au pas en marche arriere!" I have given up offering to correct it as the managers have told me that the translator insists it is correct and says that I must be so ill educated that I dont know how to speak my own language [:D]

[Iceni]

[quote user="Mr Coeur de Lion"]

I'm doing a course in web design next semester and one of the assignments is to find three sites with good design and three with bad design.

[/quote]

CdeL - have you moved seamlessly from Australian English to American English ?

John

 

[Iceni]

[quote user="woolybanana"]

But, say you were in Hong Kong, would you accept Indian English, Chinglish or UK or US English?

[/quote]

Hopefully my standards remain constant wherever I happen to be. 21st century English as spoken/written by the natives is evidence of a  reduction in quality as they seem to know no better - or are too lazy to bother. Probably the latter.

Probably A. Snob

[Mr Coeur de Lion]

[quote user="cooperlola"][quote user="woolybanana"]

 I challenge you to write the same in French to a commercial standard.

[/quote]I couldn't. 

However, if I were serious about my business appealing to an English speaking market then I would invest a bit of cash getting a competent English speaker to check it over for me.  Professionally presented advertising, promotion and marketing gives the impression - true or not - that the business itself is similarly professionally run, so to my mind it would be worth a bit extra to get the basics right. 

[/quote]

Agreed, this is a business that is based on communication, trying to sell or exchange properties, the written word is extremely important.

I've been to many restaurants too where the English is poor, but it's not as essential for it to be 100% accurate. With a web based business, you have to remember that that site will have to be marketed as well in order to appear in search engines and get ranked highly, otherwise it will never get seen. Google is very intelligent when it comes to reading websites and it will not pick this one up and deliver favourable results for it. It is therefore essential for the search engines as well as clients for it to be written in good English.

[Mr Coeur de Lion]

[quote user="Iceni"]

[quote user="Mr Coeur de Lion"]

I'm doing a course in web design next semester and one of the assignments is to find three sites with good design and three with bad design.

[/quote]

CdeL - have you moved seamlessly from Australian English to American English ?

John

 

[/quote]

Australia uses semester too. It's just two academic periods within one year. What do the English use for this?

[bubbles]

I don't think the situation ever crops up!

There are usually three terms in an academic year.

(Trimesters?)

Sometimes more!

[Pickles]

[quote user="bubbles"]I don't think the situation ever crops up!

There are usually three terms in an academic year.

(Trimesters?)

Sometimes more![/quote]

Quite a few universities in the UK have "semesterised" (ugly term, isn't it!) in the last few years. I think what drove it was that, gradually, what had been pre-Christmas exams became post-Christmas exams, thus shortening the time available for the second term. Since the autumn term was generally already the "longest" term, the shift to a two-term teaching period enabled universities to rebalance the length of modules between autumn and spring terms.

Returning to the topic, I find that if I am presented with anything written, the first things that I see are the spelling mistakes. After that, the grammatical errors jump out, and I have to fight my way through those before I can read the substance of the text. Quite frequently, the mistakes mean that what has been written is not what the writer meant. Although sometimes it is possible to infer what was meant by the sense of the other sentences, in other cases this leads to misunderstanding and disappointment, particularly in commercial circumstances. Like it or not, a sizeable proportion of the target market will be put off by frequent spelling mistakes and other errors, and will take the quality of the text as an indication of the quality of the business. Why put them off when, with the input of a relatively small effort, you can get it right?

Incidentally, it is currently taking about twice as long for me to type this because some of the keys don't register at the first press!

Regards

Pickles

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Iceni"] as they seem to know no better - or are too lazy to bother. Probably the latter.

Probably A. Snob

[/quote]I suspect the former in more cases than you might imagine, Mr Snob ([:D]). 

I have a friend here who makes her living teaching English to French business people (she is TEFL qualified.)  When she came over here five years ago, she spoke no French and - more power to her elbow - learnt the language from scratch and is now pretty competent.  However, she admitted to me that one of the big problems she had learning French was that she had never been taught grammar in English - no parsing, no parts of speach, punctuation etc - in fact nothing of that sort at all.  She speaks reasonable English (you wouldn't have a problem understanding her meaning) but makes what to me are pretty obvious errors of grammar.   It's not her fault, she is a bright, intelligent woman - she was just never taught these things.  So how are her students expected to learn correct English from her, and who corrects the teachers and their errors?  What's more, shouldn't it be part of the TEFL requirement to speak and write correct English?  If not, why not?

[woolybanana]

It has been a while now since I had anything to do with it, but I seem to remember that the Cambridge suite of TEFL qualifications used to insist on an adequate grasp of grammar for the levels being taught before being qualified.

[idun]

What a demoralising thread for someone like me. If I was 'young' I think that this thread could have had me feeling like I was a waste of space, useless, no good!  Those who have a little dig, or a big one, at  things like spelling mistakes, or any written mistakes can do such damage. I hardened up when growing up, there still remains a my soft and sensitive centre, so I am simply feeling down at the moment.

 I have said, grammar was really a nightmare for me, so was spelling. Maths and the fog cleared, what sense it made. I found in my working life, which apart from one job, was strictly with numbers and money, that many literary people cannot do simple sums. Philosophically, I thought that we all couldn't be good at the same things.

[:(]