Whatever happened to the English language?

[JSKS]

But if you were going to set up a website in English would you not want that English to conform to accepted spelling, grammar and usage? In the same way that an innumerate person would get help with sums, an illiterate should ask someone to proof their writing - if they are too lazy to do that it doesn't give a good impression.

[cooperlola]

Idun, I don't think that anybody has had a dig at individuals at all - the point was about a commercial site trying to sell something - not an individual chatting on a forum.  If you werent' confident about your writing ability, then would you produce a job application and not get somebody who could spell and write well to read it over for you before you sent it off?  I bet you wouldn't because you are clearly not stupid, that it obvious to most of us on here, I am sure.  The same applies here - it's a business and they are trying to make money out of us so presentation is important, and good grammar and spelling are part of that - sorry. 

It's a long way from criticising people's everyday speach, spelling and grammar which I think most on here don't do because it's pointless and spoils the chatter, as well as undermining people for things they may not be able to help.  But in promotional literature - electronic or otherwise - then a bit of care in presentation gives potential customers the impression that the same attention to detail will be taken when they are spending their clients' money.

[andyh4]

[quote user="Chancer"]

I have given up offering to correct it as the managers have told me that the translator insists it is correct and says that I must be so ill educated that I dont know how to speak my own language [:D]

[/quote]

 

Similar problem for a friends daughter in school here in Germany.  She simply could not get the teacher to accept that you do not pluralise words like homework and information.  It also got her some black marks on her record because like many young teenages she had to insist she was right, rather than stay quiet but know she was right.

[idun]

Yes, but some of us get these comments all our lives one way or another, it starts at school, those little comments, even when you are really trying, I always was,  and still up to your chin in the mire that grammar is to some of us. And for all I don't usually get comments addressed to 'me' on any board, I still see them made, people being pedants, usually I smile and think 'grumpy old so and so',  often I don't even give them a thought, THEN sometimes, maybe a bad day, feeling fragile and then it is quite different.

I then remind myself that the brightest person I know, I mean nationally awarded for their cleverness, has rather iffy spelling and it is rather comforting. Only that isn't working just now.

Theo Paphetis was on tv the other day, all his Dragon's Den salary goes to something do to with dyslexia. He's dyslexic. He said that many business people are dyslexic, so 'do' rather than study. I am now wondering how he deals with his company publicity, and how he did in the early days. Whatever he did obviously worked.

[JSKS]

Idun,

I suspect Mr Paphetis does what the author of the website in question should have done, he gets someone who can write in good English to do the publicity material. Grammar and spelling are little to do with cleverness (which is usually defined to reflect the abilities of the definer!); however, attention to detail in a business venture is, I would suggest, a clever move and would include making sure that material available to the public is properly written.

There will always be the grammar police on any forum - the fun is in parsing their assertions in the hope that they, too, have erred.

[idun]

[quote user="Chancer"]

Compared to many restaurant menus and general information signs in France that are written in English the website scores 99.99 out of 100.

If like me you kindly point out to the hapless business owner that what they have had printed at great cost is total gibberish and offer to correct it for free you will most likely learn that they have in fact paid a professional translator to do it, I just dont get why the French seem to think they must use a French national rather than a native speaking translator. The local tourist office and the community de communes refused point blank to use the services of an English translator (she was registered) even when offered gratis, their publicity is laughable as are the supposed English names that they dream up and pressurise local tourist businesses to use.

My favorite local one is "Lorry drivers, march on the back step!" the French text reads "routiers, roulez au pas en marche arriere!" I have given up offering to correct it as the managers have told me that the translator insists it is correct and says that I must be so ill educated that I dont know how to speak my own language [:D]

[/quote]

 

And sometimes I know 'right' from 'wrong'. We had a language school in our area and the bloke who ran it asked me to read out some text he had written in english for him to record. It was just wrong, and he wouldn't have it, not at all and insisted that what he had written made sense and it made so sense at all. I accommodated him and said the words, so out there are literally thousands of recordings of me saying something really stupid and nonsensical. At least he was happy with it. [:-))]

[cooperlola]

The best and most successful bosses for whom I have worked were also the best delegators - they knew their own strengths and employed others to fill in the gaps in their own abilities.

 As I said before, my friend who is a copywriter is very successful in spite of the fact that his grammar is truly dreadful.  But he knows this well enough to get proper proof readers to check the final product before it's unleashed on the public.[:)]  That is the trick, imho.

[idun]

There will always be the grammar police on any forum - the fun is in parsing their assertions in the hope that they, too, have erred.

[:)] I had to look up 'parse'. As I can't do it, I suppose that it is a word that I have never needed to know. Certainly isn't a game I can play.

 

[Mr Coeur de Lion]

Agree completely with coops here.

The most successful businessmen know what to delegate and how to do so in order to get the best results.

Their ethic would be along the lines of work smarter, not harder.

Going back to that original site, I have my property up for sale and am looking at ways to market it better. That site will not be getting my business.

[Catalpa]

[quote user="woolybanana"]The English language is international and not the property of any one nation any more and is evolving according to need. This site, however simple and basic, is clearly written by non-native speakers, and is a tribute to the spread of the language. Please do not see it negatively.

Remember that you can travel to most parts of the world these days and will find English speakers, most of whom have not had the opportunity to spend time in an English speaking country. This is because the teaching of the language worldwide which has evolved at lightspeed since the second half of the last century. [/quote] 

I've re-quoted more or less the whole thing because I agree so much - even if I am late to the party. Nicely said, Mr Banana.

[cooperlola]

Whilst I see Woolyb and Catalpa's point, the other side of this coin is being played out in glorious technicolour on another thread.  The tax authorities here have seen fit to "translate" a new instruction (necessary after a change in EU legislation ) into "English" and to send this out with the latest tax forms.  However, because they appear to have used Google to do this instead of getting it translated by a native English speaker properly qualified for the job, hardly any of the English people (at whom it is aimed) who have read it, seem to understand a word.[:-))]

[Catalpa]

I think the website under examination and communications sent out by a government department are different.

The website is clearly "under construction" because there's very little behind the home page but a cursory look doesn't indicate to me that it is targetted solely towards British people but rather towards people who, no matter what their native language is, understand English. In its most basic form. [:-))]

Now that doesn't excuse an unprofessional, sloppy approach to business and marketing but I suspect many startup businesses that go on to be a success start off on a shoestring. Not that I'm saying that this website business will do that - I happened to look at it in Chrome and there are banner ads for other businesses which screams "not a serious or professional site").  But because (for most of us) our native tongue is English, we can forget that English also enables communication between people for whom it is their second, third, fourth, fifth language. Just because something is in English doesn't mean we're "the" target audience. Just "a" target audience.

The badly translated document from the tax authorities is indefensible. But is anyone surprised? [6]

_______________

Edited to correct typo!

[cooperlola]

Point taken.[:)]