Right, guys, without heated debate, let's have the reasons for UK leaving.

[woolybanana]

Compulsory voting in Belgium.

The problem, as I see it, and contrary to the US, is that Brussels is determined to enforce conformity throughout Europe and remove almost all powers for member States to be different. The model is not the federalism of Germany but the central control of France.

[Pickles]

[quote user="woolybanana"]The problem, as I see it, and contrary to the US, is that Brussels is determined to enforce conformity throughout Europe and remove almost all powers for member States to be different. The model is not the federalism of Germany but the central control of France.[/quote]

But hasn't much of EU legislation been about establishing a level playing field for business? Eg reducing the possibilities for states to skew markets via illegal subsidies?

[woolybanana]

Here we differ: I think that much has been done to create a French model of high taxes and social charges which inevitably leads to a culture of illegal payments as competition is effectively stifled.

The current example is the attempt by the French government to bully the Irish into increasing their corporation tax to French levels.

[YCCMB]

Let's face it: some people actually elected Farage as an MEP. Have a look at HIS voting record. Better still, have a look at how much money he's drawn and been paid for doing rock all. Of course, he would tell you it's a "protest". But he's not above taking the money for his protest from the EU gravy train. If that isn't a case of double standards then something else is.

[Thibault]

I think it was Quillan who earlier talked about how the process of becoming a United States of Europe would come about.  But I, along with lots of other people do NOT want to be part of USE.  I was asked to vote to join  the EEC - a good idea and I was in favour.  The idea of having a large trading bloc is a good one.

When it comes to political integration, I would say that the 'European' mind-set is completely different to the UK mind-set and that is where the trouble lies.  The UK has been successful as a large economy because it is flexible and adapts to circumstances (give or take different political positions here - but there's not much fundamentally different between right and left) whereas Europe comes across as highly centralised, with little in the way of flexibility.  It wants to impose its view, regardless.  Let's not forget its approach to referenda - if the first vote isn't what 'they' want, let's do it again until they vote the 'correct' way.

Its administration appears to be unaccountable - how many years have the auditors refused to agree their accounts?  The European Parliament appears to be a joke.  How much does it cost to move from Brussels to Strasburg?  That was done to placate the French - but at what cost.  A sensible organisation would have one HQ, but then I fear the EU is not a sensible organisation.

I do not want to see the UK leave entirely, but I do have to agree with Cameron - we need to renegotiate our position - if that means a two tier Europe, with some going for political union, and others for trading bloc status, then sobeit.

[Quillan]

[quote user="Thibault"]

I think it was Quillan who earlier talked about how the process of becoming a United States of Europe would come about.  But I, along with lots of other people do NOT want to be part of USE.  I was asked to vote to join  the EEC - a good idea and I was in favour.  The idea of having a large trading bloc is a good one.

When it comes to political integration, I would say that the 'European' mind-set is completely different to the UK mind-set and that is where the trouble lies.  The UK has been successful as a large economy because it is flexible and adapts to circumstances (give or take different political positions here - but there's not much fundamentally different between right and left) whereas Europe comes across as highly centralised, with little in the way of flexibility.  It wants to impose its view, regardless.  Let's not forget its approach to referenda - if the first vote isn't what 'they' want, let's do it again until they vote the 'correct' way.

Its administration appears to be unaccountable - how many years have the auditors refused to agree their accounts?  The European Parliament appears to be a joke.  How much does it cost to move from Brussels to Strasburg?  That was done to placate the French - but at what cost.  A sensible organisation would have one HQ, but then I fear the EU is not a sensible organisation.

I do not want to see the UK leave entirely, but I do have to agree with Cameron - we need to renegotiate our position - if that means a two tier Europe, with some going for political union, and others for trading bloc status, then sobeit.

[/quote]

Three things, many of those that voted to be in the EEC are dead or quite old now and the younger people I have talked to appear in general to be pro USE.

The EU is by far the larges economy for 2010, 2011 and 2012 according to the IMF and The World Bank.

The comments about the MEP's and EU parliament are justifiable but then in many ways the public are to blame. I posted early on a list, by percentage, of those that even bothered to vote for an MEP and the UK's result is pretty poor, in fact the bottom out of the nine original members. If you don't vote then you have no say. Those that voted for a Ukip MEP are even worse because all they say is "out, out, out" and they don't look after their constituants interests at all in the European Parliment.

All this stuff about Cameron "re-negotiating" the UK's place in the EU is utter tosh and really nothing to do with it because at the end of the day the EU will say NO because if it allows its self to be bullied in to changing things for one country it will wake up the following morning and find a queue of other states at the door wanting to change as well. What this is really about is winning the next election which is why the date for the referendum is afterwards. He knows that Labour really don't want a referendum and will fight not to have it. Should they get in to power at the next election you can kiss a referendum goodbye. In effect your going to have a pre referendum, referendum becuase a vote for the Tories will be for a referendum and a vote for Labour wil be not to have one and the LD's.... well who really knows. So he is hoping that people will drift to the Tories just because he says he will have the referendum and hence win the next election.

I am afraid you can't have your cake and eat it the options are simple.

Staying as we are.

Leave but pay the same money like Norway, Greenland and Switzerland so we can trade inside the EU but with no representation.

Leave completely, not pay any money and become isolated and rely on the scrapes the USA throw down for us. If you remember the UK was promised loads of reconstruction contracts in Iraq if they helped the US, same with Afghanistan, and what did we get, just the cr*p stuff and very little of that as well. The USA looks after its self and nobody else.

 

[Thibault]

There was an interesting article in the papers over the weekend which said that Germany was more in sympathy with the UK's feelings about the EU and because they very much do not want the UK to leave, are likely to find some way of accommodating Cameron's desire for some renegotiation.  There was also a piece by one the businessmen who campaigned strongly for Britain to join the Euro when it was first mooted, saying how wrong he was then and how thankful hewas that Britain did not go down that road.  So views and opinions can change over time. 

The latest trade figures show that Britain is successfully finding markets outside the EU.

A Federal United States of Europe is a fundamental change to my country's sovereignty and cannot be allowed to happen without the consent of the British people.  It is up to those who feel strongly about British membership to put their case properly (and those who want to leave, of course).  A lot of scare stories that outside the EU Britian will be 'lost' doesn't constitute a rational argument.

As for having a cake and eating it too, there is room for compromise.  It may be necessary for the EZ countries to have an integrated financial and political system, but it is not necessary for those outside it.

[Rabbie]

UK law already ensures there would be a referendum if any significant transfer of powers from London to Brussels occurs so no risk of the UK becoming part of a federal USE without a Yes vote.

Like many of my friends and acquaintances I see the need for a renegotiation and I wish Cameron well in his attempts to do this.

I note however that the USA is very keen for the UK to remain in the EU so we should not assume that they would be particularly helpful if we do leave. The one factor that does not get much mention is the administrative cost of leaving the EU. We would be foolish to underestimate the cost and disruption caused by our withdrawal.

[Pickles]

I apologise if my posts are a bit curt and grumpy - they are not intended as personal attacks on anyone here.

[quote user="Thibault"]There was an interesting article in the papers over the weekend which said that Germany was more in sympathy with the UK's feelings about the EU and because they very much do not want the UK to leave, are likely to find some way of accommodating Cameron's desire for some renegotiation.  There was also a piece by one the businessmen who campaigned strongly for Britain to join the Euro when it was first mooted, saying how wrong he was then and how thankful hewas that Britain did not go down that road.  So views and opinions can change over time. 

[/quote]

Yes, I believe that there is some sympathy in Germany for the UK's position. Germans are also concerned at having become the default bail-out source for the Eurozone. They are also concerned about the upcoming elections and the series of scandals being played out in the German media at present regarding Merkel's past (just as one example), and some are concerned that the oppostion would do a lot of damage if they get in.

[quote user="Thibault"]The latest trade figures show that Britain is successfully finding markets outside the EU.[/quote]

Yes, but how many of those markets are open to us because of EU bloc trade agreements?

[quote user="Thibault"]A Federal United States of Europe is a fundamental change to my country's sovereignty and cannot be allowed to happen without the consent of the British people.  It is up to those who feel strongly about British membership to put their case properly (and those who want to leave, of course).  A lot of scare stories that outside the EU Britian will be 'lost' doesn't constitute a rational argument.[/quote]

Hang on: just because (for example) you can't count (or no-one is counting) the amount of trade or inward investment that is due to being in the EU (as opposed to just trade within the EU) doesn't mean that it is not real. And isn't a lot of the case for leaving based on half-stories, scare stories and misconceptions? Similarly, although the UK in the past has "punched above its weight", it is not irrational to believe that a country with a population of 60 million will not carry as much weight within negotiations as a trading bloc (including the UK) of 500 million people.

[quote user="Thibault"]As for having a cake and eating it too, there is room for compromise.  It may be necessary for the EZ countries to have an integrated financial and political system, but it is not necessary for those outside it.[/quote]

Quite possibly: I think that for the time being the Eurozone and the EU will be the basis of a "two-tier" "Europe". Personally, I think that although the EU is far from perfect, our politicians would be FAR better employed pushing through reforms of the wasteful aspects of the EU - from the inside. Eg, at a time of austerity, it is not justifiable to allow the European Parliament to have two locations: and during a time of economic crisis is EXACTLY the right time to push for these types of reform.

[powerdesal]

I voted for membership of the Common Market ( as it was known then) because it made sense, it still makes sense.

The concept of a group of independent countries having common trading standards etc is great.

The concept of each country giving up its sovereignty to a govt in Brussels / Strasbourg is not so great.

I do not know if the UK leaving the EU would be good or bad for the UK. My own opinion is that it ''may'' be a good thing.

My opinion is however pretty academic, the opinion that matters is that of the UK population as expressed in a vote - that is what democracy is all about. If the vote is to leave, even by a narrow margin, then that is the wish of the people - right or wrong.

[Kitty]

[quote user="richard51"]4. Unlike the USA the United States of Europe (USE) would not even be able to agree a common language.[/quote]

The European Union has not been able to agree a common standard for the electric plug.....  [8-)]

[Quillan]

[quote user="Kitty"][quote user="richard51"]4. Unlike the USA the United States of Europe (USE) would not even be able to agree a common language.[/quote]

The European Union has not been able to agree a common standard for the electric plug.....  [8-)]

[/quote]

Funny that, when I go to another EU country (I have not been to all of them I must admit) I don't seem to have a problem charging my mobile that is with the exception of the UK where I need an adapter. It seems that the EU standard EN 50075 plug (and socket) has been adopted by nearly all countries in the EU since 1990.

[Russethouse]

AllI can say is that my adaptor has different fittings for Northern Europe and Southern Europe ...so maybe there are some differences ....

[EuroTrash]

"that is what democracy is all about. If the vote is to leave, even by a narrow margin, then that is the wish of the people - right or wrong."

But when people get what they think they want, it sometimes turns out not what they wanted at all. Democracy voted for Hollande but very soon realised it had got it wrong.

[Thibault]

[quote user="EuroTrash"]"that is what democracy is all about. If the vote is to leave, even by a narrow margin, then that is the wish of the people - right or wrong." But when people get what they think they want, it sometimes turns out not what they wanted at all. Democracy voted for Hollande but very soon realised it had got it wrong.[/quote] I'm afraid that's the risk one takes with democracy. Either the nation states of the EU are democracies or they are not. You cannot decide on the people's behalf that in one particular case they should be denied a vote in case they vote the 'wrong way'.....oh, isn't that what some in the EU do when they fear the vote in a referendum might go against them or make the people keep voting until they get it 'right'? I begin to see where the pro-EU people get the idea that you mustn't let people vote from......

[Quillan]

Well being pro EU (don't know if anyone noticed [;-)] ) I still believe there needs to a be a vote but before the vote I would like to see people better informed as to the pros and cons of leaving or staying because I don't think the general public from both sides have all the facts. As somebody said, although I would like to see something from a independent body, it will really be up to both sides to put strong cases. The vote is needed to finally put this EU membership issue to bed once and for all because I believe that what some politicians and economists are saying to be true in that it will slow investment in to the UK down until this issue is resolved one way or the other.

Although in my opinion it will be quite futile Cameron must be given the opportunity to at least be seen to renegotiate the UK's membership although I still believe much of what he wants is already catered for if only he accepted some of the EU legislation in to UK law (immigration of EU nationals for example). As Obama says it would be wrong to have a vote without at least trying first.

For what it is worth I think that the vote will be for staying in, I might put a tenner on it but not my house because it will be close.

[Russethouse]

Be fore the UK has a vote don't we need to wait until we know the result of the Scottish independence vote and see where that leaves us, and them too for that matter.

[Quillan]

[quote user="Russethouse"]Be fore the UK has a vote don't we need to wait until we know the result of the Scottish independence vote and see where that leaves us, and them too for that matter.[/quote]

I don't believe it will have any effect on the UK with reference to the EU although it may effect the Scots. Spain will definitely vote NO if it works out they have to reapply to join the EU because of Catalonia wanting to do the same and all member states need to agree to a new member.

[Russethouse]

On a practical level the Scots would get a vote if they were still part of the UK, but if they were not I guess they wouldn't....so for the moment we can't proceed.

[dwmcn]

Being a rightwinger with no brains.

[dwmcn]

Norman,

As an American, I can't understand this fascination with the US. One person here is even allowing a relative to waste money crossing the US. I'd prefer crossing Europe. I've ben from western France to the eastern border of Poland.

David

[Rabbie]

I think the main reason that Cameron is proposing a referendum in 2017 is that he knows a referendum now would almost certainly give a No result and probably split his party. So he wants a referendum after he has renegotiated the relationship between the UK and the EU and so giving him a better chance of a Yes vote. That way he avoids the drastic step of actually leaving the EU

[Quillan]

I agree Rabbie, its all smoke and mirrors to try and win the next election and this could be the ideal policy because Labour won't have a referendum on the issue. Personally I think that for all the huffing and puffing his chances of negotiating anything tangible out of the EU is about zero but he is right to have a go.

[Chris]

A PA report on the polls as influenced by the referendum issue:

"According to the ComRes study 46% of Britons would vote to leave the European Union in a referendum now, compared with 24% who would stay in. But if some powers were returned to the UK from Brussels 43% would vote to remain in the EU, with just 24% determined to see Britain leave."

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/ukip-hits-opinion-poll-high-19-183533975.html#A82OLIf

[idun]

If this was a marriage, which is some ways it is, and one half is laying the law down, with,  you 'must' do this that and the other and we have more tricks up our sleeves that you 'must' do in the future........... then personally I would be considering divorce.

And remember in this particular case, where there is no 'love or intimacy' involved, and in this case we are taking more bread to the table and basically being bullied by 'our other half'!!!!! 

Relationships of any type have to be up for negociation, or they simply do not work. One half starts feeling very hard done by, and bitterness creeps in and anger. And like all bullies, the EU are blaming the UK for complaining about justifiable things we do not like. And like all bullies, telling the world that 'we' are the problem, because ofcourse, where bullies are concerned, it is never them!

So yes, he has to negociate, or someone has to. The rules and laws we sign up to have to feel sound and fair and suit the basic culture in the UK, which historically was very hard fought for!

My mind works in odd ways, but after replying to some emails from a friend who is having a terrible time, then it seemed quite apt to compare.[:)]