When getting from A to B is a nightmare

[idun]

 I can only feel for those who have been trying to travel this weekend.

15000 stuck in the alpes, hopefully, motorists have managed to get to the shelters that they said would be provided, because a car is not the best place to be on a freezing night.

Add to that that there have been rail strikes on the local lines in the Rhone Alpes too....... causing havoc and that has been without snow disrupting anything at all.

Which brings me to those folk hoping to get too and from London by train and hit the debacle that had them waiting for hours. I always find it incredible that the bosses have not good contingency plans in place, but apparently they haven't. It surely should be part of their job when dealing with transporting the public. If they cannot get something so fundamental right, should these companies not be finding people who can?

[Quillan]

Yet last week people were complaining that there was either no snow or not enough snow in the Alps for the skiers. Mind you with blocked roads etc it is not as if they didn't know the snow was coming. They were out gritting our roads last night but it didn't snow or if it did I was in bed at our level although it is on the mountains at about 700 to 800m.

[YCCMB]

[quote user="idun"] I can only feel for those who have been trying to travel this weekend.

15000 stuck in the alpes, hopefully, motorists have managed to get to the shelters that they said would be provided, because a car is not the best place to be on a freezing night.

Add to that that there have been rail strikes on the local lines in the Rhone Alpes too....... causing havoc and that has been without snow disrupting anything at all.

Which brings me to those folk hoping to get too and from London by train and hit the debacle that had them waiting for hours. I always find it incredible that the bosses have not good contingency plans in place, but apparently they haven't. It surely should be part of their job when dealing with transporting the public. If they cannot get something so fundamental right, should these companies not be finding people who can?

[/quote]

I admit a certain sympathy for the folk stuck owing to the overrunning engineering works at Kings Cross. However, as I'm married to someone who, in the last unpteen years, has probably only had a couple of Christmases at home all day because he's been project managing engineering works or similar, I know how bloody difficult these things can be. Total closures, allowing "possession" of the railway and tracks, can only happen for finite periods at specific times, almost invariably Christmas and Easter, and this because during normal working periods, the chaos and disruption would be even worse. So repairs and maintenance are conducted to (often unrealistically) tight timescales during periods when it is assumed there will be the least possible disruption to people who use the railway to travel to and from work. Of course, if something goes wrong, and it can, then all hell breaks loose because Plan A was for nothing to go wrong, and Plan B was for Plan A to work.

The "heads will roll" thingy is all PR and bluster, IMO. If you give people 2 days to do a 3 day job, with no contingency built in for if something goes wrong, then this is the inevitable result. But then, would people rather have a properly maintained transport infrastructure, or the risk of accidents and danger from lack of upkeep.

Meanwhile, a large cohort of workers have had to work shifts 24 hours a day over Christmas in order to do the work at all. But all they'll get out of the deal (and don't assume they'll all be paid handsome overtime...) is a public slagging. Merry Christmas.

[idun]

No snow, yes, it was needed. Had to laugh at a news reader on Sky news last night saying that the 'french' in the Alpes were used to the snow and he was wondering how they couldn't cope. Well, they often cannot. It arrives so thick and fast sometimes that even with the ploughs out, they hardly make a dent in the falling snow, especially when it is windy too.

I suppose that they could cope if they had say a flotilla of snow ploughs, or which ever other plural one uses for a lot of snow ploughs, all working minutes apart and covering several lanes at a time on say a motorway. But the money isn't there to do this and these things, well, snow, happens.

My bone with missing public transport, is this, and I suspect in this at least I am not that different to most other people. I do not like the mickey taken. I like to be informed, ie something in place to make sure that I know what is happening when, and due to arthritis, I need more these days, more than even when I was travelling with children really. Somewhere I can sit down and use a toilet if necessary and get something to eat and drink. It would be the same at an airport, bus station or railway station.

Mince, there are computers these days and it isn't as if someone has to get up big ladders and put up information letter by letter, they can let people know what is happening. I don't need apologies, I need infomation, honest information and not something that will change on a whim. This isn't to do with those doing the maintenance, this is to do with the others, those that 'cannot do 'real' jobs', who are just supposed to organise the rest and take these things into account as part of an emergency plan. So which very bright spark believed that Finchley Park with it's, is it, 4 tracks could take on all the passengers from Kings Cross? I am not the brightest around, but common sense tells me that that just would never work and it did not. Feel all too often these days that it is OK to treat customers like mushrooms, kept in the dark and feed them manure or worse nothing at all!

[YCCMB]

I agree, Idun...but that's down to the train operators and not the maintenance crews.

Sometimes, there's stuff they can't tell the general public, although I'm not suggesting that's the case in this instance. Just that I've been there when the merde has hit the fan and my OH has had to deal with the fallout from there being a fatality on one of these jobs...and then nothing and no one can move until there's been a full investigation by the HSE. It's all planned to the NTh degree...but you cannot always legislate for the totally unexpected, not can you warn the public about something that "might" happen.

[idun]

In fact they should have every single possible scenario covered and what to do if X Y or Z happens. Death, accident, flood, fire, terrorist attack or simply maintenance just taking longer, which sometimes it does.

Let's face it, even at home the most banal of jobs and we can be left with an unexpected job that has to be done before we can do what we wanted to do in the first place and it takes far longer and costs far more than we ever expected.

That things don't go to plan should never be unexpected, the passengers pay for a proper service and should be treat with respect and efficiency.

And the snow, well, they are now stopping people without chains going on any further at a certain altitude. I was wondering how enterprising the local chain sellers will be, they should be out there and selling on a Sunday with an appropriate markup..... but will they? Maybe best not to hold one's breath.

[Jonzjob]

That reminds me!! I must get on 'leboncoin' and see if I can sell the 2 sets of chains I have that don't fit my car now [I][I]

[Patf]

We chose to live near the Pyrenees, for the walking, and Eddie for the skiing, but I've only once been up there when the roads were snowy - never again. We have snow chains too. You can't even see the sides of the road in some places, and the hairpin bends [:'(]

They must have nerves of steel.

[NormanH]

The situation at King's Cross is something different from the Savoie.

The French one has at least an element of the 'lemming' mentality in France where everyone has to go on holiday on the same weekend come what may.

[PaulT]

In the UK every year there are instances of overrunning engineering works. Sometimes less disruptive.

Is it a case of 'we have possession for x days let's cram in as much as possible' and then when something unexpected happens there is an overrun.

Perhaps plan to do less so that if something does go wrong then there is some slack time just in case.

[YCCMB]

Unfortunately, PaulT, it doesn't work like that. imagine...you have miles of railway track to replace. You can do x amount per day. you can get a possession for 2 days. You plan to do less than that....and wait till Easter to do the next bit, or the following Christmas.

Meanwhile, the track that needs replacing continues to deteriorate, possibly to the point of becoming unsafe, or unusable. Then, you may be forced to close the track that could already have been upgraded, or there's an accident and it comes to light that the accident could have been avoided if necessary maintenance had been carried out in a timely manner.

It's never in the plan to do more than is feasible, but there are all sorts of unforeseen things which could thwart the most carefully planned schedule.

Sometimes it does appear that the Great British Public are so busy with their own little lives that they jump to the conclusion that anything which thwarts their plans has been done deliberately to inconvenience them.

[Quillan]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]It's never in the plan to do more than is feasible, but there are all sorts of unforeseen things which could thwart the most carefully planned schedule.[/quote]

If the project manager is up to the job and if those that are doing the work are up to the job then it should be done on time. I have never, ever, had a project run over time or budget indeed many of my projects have come in within the allocated time and under or on budget. It's all in the planning and having the right people for the job.

[idun]

[quote user="idun"]

And the snow, well, they are now stopping people without chains going on any further at a certain altitude. I was wondering how enterprising the local chain sellers will be, they should be out there and selling on a Sunday with an appropriate markup..... but will they? Maybe best not to hold one's breath.

[/quote]

Well in this case I love being wrong. Feu Vert opened their doors at 4 this morning to sell chains. Well done them, sold as many today as they do in a year!

[Quillan]

I can't remember who told me but when we came to live here I was told to keep chains in my car from the end of November to the end of April. I can't believe that anyone going in to an area where it obviously snows, like a ski resort, would not take chains with them.

[DraytonBoy]

Despite the constant delays and complaints the UK's rail network is one of the busiest in the world and passenger numbers are growing. It therefore beggars belief that more time wasn't allocated to the engineering works bearing in mind the time of year and the chaos that could have been predicted if they overran.

[Pierre ZFP]

I put my snow chains in the boot when I drove back to UK before Christmas, felt a bit fooloish as it was 12 deg C and clear but yesterday evening as I came over the Ardennes at -9Deg and snowing, I was feeling quite confident I wouldn't get stuck, not that I needed the chains but working on the theory of 'if you've got them, you don't need them' I'll carry them around until the end of March.

-5 Deg C and snowing hard as I look out the window in Kirchberg, Luxembourg.  Maybe I will need the chains later .......

[Frederick]

When it comes to daily train travel and I have had years of it I am with Betty all the way on this . I know and have seen what happens when the rack fails and carriages pile up. I would be happy have a day or two of overrun disruption knowing the end result is the track work has been done properly had been inspected and signed off as safe to be used if I am hurtling down it at a hundred miles an hour .

.

Betty is right things can and do go wrong with big planned railway projects unforeseen means exactly that.

Had the snow that the north of England had come South turning out to be not forecast and unforeseen .....and ....the track was still out of use this morning then no doubt that would have been the railways fault as well .

[NickP]

Quote, "If the project manager is up to the job and if those that are doing the work are up to the job then it should be done on time. I have never, ever, had a project run over time or budget indeed many of my projects have come in within the allocated time and under or on budget. It's all in the planning and having the right people for the job."

That's all very to say, but comparing a heavy engineering job to emptying the dishwashers and making beds is not really a fair comparison. :)

[Judith]

Seeing as how this IS a quieter time on the railway for commuters (anyone who lives in  London can tell you when everyone is holiday - it's beautifully peaceful, and there is space to breathe!) - EXCEPT anywhere near shops, and especially the Boxing Day sales and onward.  So the raliway compnay planning for works outside peak commuter times is quite understandable - it's not as though the sales are vital - now are they?

And before I get shot down in flames - I lived 5 mins walk from Oxford Circus for 20 years, and I managed quite happily without fighting my way through the sales ... for all that time, and if it had meant getting on a train to do so, well not on your nellie.  So hoist with own petard etc,

I'm with the railway company on this one, and though I understand that some people might have planned trips to and from family etc, I didn't get much feel from the news coverage that they were the bulk of the travellers that day.

[idun]

 I tend to avoid crowds, but there are many who just have to get to those sales or do X Y or Z and that is up to them. They pay their fare like everyone else, I'd not want to judge them and no one should have left them waiting like idiots for hours with no information or services.

And saying that, it was a very good time of year to do this work.......... however, on late news last night it was said that the wrong equipment had been ordered to fit the tracks (or whatever, I am not very technical) and then when that equipment was replaced, the replacement wasn't right either, but they 'managed'. IF it was that, then someone really does deserve booting out, as planning a job properly with the right tools to do the job would seem imperative. As I have said before, plenty can go wrong with any job, even the most banal, but having the initial job covered properly was surely the least of things.

[PaulT]

Did not see the late news but if it is a case of the wrong equipment being ordered then how can the overrun be defended? YCCMB the project manager has screwed up badly for not ensuring that everything was correct long before the start of work..........was your OH involved in this?

[NormanH]

It's interesting that half idun's OP was about the situation in France but the majority of replies have focussed on the UK part.

Am I wrong in sensing an increasing tendency on this Forum to ignore French issues (not only in this thread) ?

[idun]

Ah NH, but all those photos of France on both french and english news have been 'mon' patelin and these things happen there. I cannot blame the authorities really, drivers ill equipped with both poor driving skills and no proper equipment. Snow ploughs couldn't get through as there were too many cars and too many hapless drivers also blocking the roads.

A few people in England have asked us about these current problems and I can give loads of examples....... of roads being blocked and a general nightmare, the exception this time was that it was a big cross over weekend. Let's face it, there is nothing one can do about the weather, people go to the mountains to ski, and that needs snow and when it falls, well, nature does as it pleases.

And I know that the maintenance work needed doing on the railway, but, provision should have been made in case it  over ran, so for me it is worse.

[YCCMB]

[quote user="Quillan"]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]It's never in the plan to do more than is feasible, but there are all sorts of unforeseen things which could thwart the most carefully planned schedule.[/quote]

If the project manager is up to the job and if those that are doing the work are up to the job then it should be done on time. I have never, ever, had a project run over time or budget indeed many of my projects have come in within the allocated time and under or on budget. It's all in the planning and having the right people for the job.

[/quote]

Bully for you,Quillan. Actually, Mr. Betty has a pretty good track record. Good enough to have won a few accolades for it, anyway. He managed to bring in the infamous "bridge" across the Thames ( which most normal people will recognise as a cable car) in a matter of months from start to finish of the heavy civils construction, and have it open ahead of plan and on budget, but that was just a small job in the great scheme of transport.

Maybe if he had been a lot better at his job he would have foreseen that a job managed by one of his team, and which he was ultimately overseeing, would have had a fatality when a worker was hit by the bucket of a huge digger and killed, and the site was immediately shut down pending a HSE investigation, causing an overrun of several days on a planned possession? Or maybe you can accept that, as I said previously, there are sometimes totally unforeseen issues which may cause a project to overrun on time or cost?

And no, he has nothing to do with the current Kings Cross fiasco, because he doesn't work for Network Rail.

I was in London today. I had to queue to get into the platform at Knightsbridge, and I had to go to Knightsbridge because Sloane Square was closed, along with half the District and Circle lines. Engineering works. As I listened to the voices around me, I concluded that the vast majority were foreign tourists or shoppers, so like me, hardly anyone was in such a hurry to get anywhere that a delay or a short walk mattered.