Security Measures

[NormanH]

I was a little surprised when I went to Les Halles this morning and one of the stall holders said to me 'I bet you won't be pleased that the army has parked in the space for the handicapped'..

I looked out and true enough a huge troop carrier was parked outside, and some légionnaires were patrolling by the restaurant I go to at lunchtime which is just opposite.

On reflection I realised that the Synagogue is next door but one rather discreetly hidden on the first floor of an immeuble haussmannien, so that is what they were protecting.

I imagine that those of you more out in the country might be less aware of the large military presence (apperently more troops in active service inside France than abroad), but has any one else noticed it?

[Quillan]

This is what I tried to say before. The freedom of speech is a good thing but if you are irresponsible with it you may have to sacrifice some of your other freedoms and this case liberties. People have lost, in this case, the right, if they are handicapped, to use the handicapped space as a direct result of what happened in Paris and what Charlie Hebdo put into print. Your now going to (if they havn't already) your emails, webs access, mobile phones watched. I wonder what they will do with 'snail mail'. Your parcels will also be scanned no doubt.

[Loiseau]

I flew from Nantes to London City on Tuesday, and was rather astonished by the apparent LACK of even the usual security. I saw no police out front or in the check-in areas; I was not quizzed at the desk when depositing my suitcase; no pat-down or shoe-removal required at the hand-luggage scanner; and finally no sign of the usual two heavily-armed soldiers lolling about near Nantes passport control.

Even on arrival at LondonCity, where there are usually a couple of armed police in the concourse, I saw none this time.

Maybe they were there, but in plain clothes?

Angela

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Quillan"]This is what I tried to say before. The freedom of speech is a good thing but if you are irresponsible with it you may have to sacrifice some of your other freedoms and this case liberties.[/quote]

We lost many years ago, Q;  in the UK now WASPs are legally, in numerous ways second class citizens.

[quote[ People have lost, in this case, the right, if they are handicapped, to use the handicapped space as a direct result of what happened in Paris and what Charlie Hebdo put into print.

That is really stretching!

I am sure if there were more convenient parking places, then the French Army would have used them. As the OP stated, the causal driver for this military vehicle was a synagogue. To suggest a causal link between the Charlie Hebdo atrocity and loss of disabled parking facilities is hyperbolic.

For a further example, can we suggest that grossly obscene young shoppers park their 4X4 on disabled spaces right near the store since after the Paris massacre they are frightened to walk short distances? No; they do it because they are selfish, lack compassion and are lazy: as well as pig ignorant. And have behaving in such an anti-social manner for years.

[quote]Your now going to (if they havn't already) your emails, webs access, mobile phones watched. I wonder what they will do with 'snail mail'. Your parcels will also be scanned no doubt.[/quote]

Really? The security services have been doing this for years! Forgotten about (UK) the RIP Act, 2000?

And the ensuing furore?

Both GCHQ and NSA have admitted sometime back, post Snowden, the phenomenal depths and quantity they constantly trawl.

 

[Quillan]

There are soldiers on the street now in France (I know the Gendarmes are also part of the army as well). The fact that the French army had to park there is because they are guarding something, something they would not normally guard and this is a result of what was publish and the murders after plus it seems it is open season on Jews in France or so the Jihadists say. All these places are getting extra guards be they police, gendarmes or army. I believe the amount of army personnel is around 8000 that are now on the streets. There are more 'controls' mainly on arab looking people as well although I notice the one they caught the other day was a convert and not actually arabic.

My point about emails etc is that they want even further powers both in the UK and France.

It is only your assumption that 4x4 owners are parking illegally closer to stores because they are lazy. I would guess that many are but there is no proof that everyone is doing this just because they don't want to walk so far. If I was a practicing Jew I would want the shortest distance between my car and the shop, I wouldn't like to have to walk any great distance else I might get shot like in Toulouse for example.

[NormanH]

If I was a practicing Jew I would want the shortest distance between my

car and the shop, I wouldn't like to have to walk any great distance

else I might get shot like in Toulouse for example.

The feeling in dense urban areas at the moment is that anybody might be stabbed or have their throat cut...

No need to practise...

It is the first time in my life that I have had lunch in the sun  with armed soldiers watching me at less than 50metres..

As was announced on French  news these are live rounds and they are instructed to use their weapons.

[PaulT]

8,000 soldiers on the street.....

Are they needed? Politically there will be a keenness that 'we are being tough and protecting you'. Is it OTT? If the soldiers were not there would NHs lunch in the sun have been interrupted by an attack on the Synagogue - or would he just have had a nice lunch in the sun? Do not know but I will leave you to decide - and I bet there will be a whole range of thoughts.

And the soldiers what would they have been doing if they had not been out of the streets? In barracks doing various exercises so they may as well be doing something different.

[powerdesal]

It would be pretty pointless to have troops on the streets if their weapons contained blank ammunition. Equally pointless is if the soldiers were told not to use their weapons.

[Quillan]

[quote user="powerdesal"]It would be pretty pointless to have troops on the streets if their weapons contained blank ammunition. Equally pointless is if the soldiers were told not to use their weapons.[/quote]

Exactly and if you were a Muslim how would you feel? I don't think putting troops on the street is a good idea. Firstly it smacks of fright and desperation and secondly it is antagonistic.

When I think about it I have spent most of my adult life living with terrorism, from the 70's onwards. I was in London when the first IRA attacks happened and remember the 'ring of steel' being put in place and the grief it cased those going about their normal business. It affected our lives in many ways, some major and others quite minimally but affect our lives it did and to a some degree still does but we don't notice it anymore. My house in Docklands has never been the same after the bomb.

 

[powerdesal]

''Exactly and if you were a Muslim how would you feel? I don't think putting troops on the street is a good idea. Firstly it smacks of fright and desperation and secondly it is antagonistic.''

Why would a Muslim feel any different than a non-Muslim about troops being on the streets ?

When the (supposedly Catholic ) IRA were bombing the UK I didn't feel any different, as a Catholic, than anyone else. When I had to inspect my car before driving away I didn't feel that the rules were getting at me because of my religion. I wasn't singled out for an under car mirror check when driving into camp, everyone was treated the same.

Armed troops on the streets is a reaction to armed attacks by terrorists, it's how it is. If it makes the population feel safer then it can't be a bad move. It uses available assets and focuses attention on the problem.

[Quillan]

Because most Muslims in France are Algerian and are not 'white'. As I said somewhere between 60 and 70% of prisoners in French jails are Muslims. FN is basically a non racist party run by and supported by racists, bit like Ukip and they have a lot of supporters. The Gendarmarie (and I suspect the army) are at the stage where the UK police were 20 or 30 years ago with institutionalised racism running rampant amongst its ranks.

[NormanH]

Armed

troops on the streets is a reaction to armed attacks by terrorists,

it's how it is. If it makes the population feel safer then it can't be a

bad move. It uses available assets and focuses attention on the

problem.

I can understand it as a political move, to give the impression of doing something.

In terms of effectiveness I wonder if it isn't a waste of time in a guerilla war where the other side can just lie low and wait or change target.

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[Quillan]

Bit like NI during 'the troubles' really, didn't do that much good. It wasn't till people started pulling the money that things got better.

[andyh4]

[quote user="Quillan"] (I know the Gendarmes are also part of the army as well). [/quote] Actually that is incorrect. The Gendarmerie were transferred from the ministry of defence to the ministry of the interior some years ago. I also disagree that Muslims in France are all Algerians (I assume you would throw in a few Turks, Tunisians and Moroccan's). You will find a growing number of European Muslims. I think your prejudices are showing through.

[Quillan]

[quote user="andyh4"][quote user="Quillan"] (I know the Gendarmes are also part of the army as well). [/quote] Actually that is incorrect. The Gendarmerie were transferred from the ministry of defence to the ministry of the interior some years ago. I also disagree that Muslims in France are all Algerians (I assume you would throw in a few Turks, Tunisians and Moroccan's). You will find a growing number of European Muslims. I think your prejudices are showing through.[/quote]

Read it again "Because most Muslims in France are Algerian".

If your 'white' then I have possibly a lot more experience firsthand of racial prejudice being Jewish but mainly by having a mixed race daughter and a 'black' partner for many years. What do you define as European Muslims, Muslims that have lived in Europe for several generations or ‘white’ people who have converted? My point was that it is easier to pick on people who are of a different race (colour) and that France is deeply racist and this is indicated by the percentage of Muslims in French prisons and the type of crime that got them there which in some cases would not have resulted in a custodial sentence if they were white.

In the UK there are many Asians who are not Muslim but many think they are because of their colour, one colour fits all. This probably explains why on average the British public believe there are at least 16 times more Muslims in the UK than there really are.

My fear is that by putting the army on the street rather than increase police presence could been seen by some as an 'over the top' reaction especially as most of them have been placed in or near areas highly populated by Muslims.

 

[Frederick]

Surely people are not surprised by what they now see on the streets as a result of the action taken in Paris ?

It was obvious what was coming and it will get worse when the next specific target is selected . These terrorists are well aware of the massive disruption that a small group of them can inflict on a population . Now that Police Stations seem to have been selected for attack as the Belgian incident shows. Even more man power is going to be needed massive overtime huge additional costs to the public purse and resignations of Police employees will be thrown into the mix if their place of work takes a hit

The public anger will grow. Muslim's in the community will be blamed for bring it all down on people heads and interracial violence on the streets comes step closer . Seems to me their plan is coming together.... Posters have mentioned Northern Ireland .....Bombay Street Belfast crossed my mind days ago........I hope I am wrong .

[powerdesal]

'' My fear is that by putting the army on the street rather than increase police presence could been seen by some as an 'over the top' reaction especially as most of them have been placed in or near areas highly populated by Muslims.''

No doubt an increased Police presence would be better, but, do the Police have 'spare' bodies that are readily available to provide that increased presence, I somehow doubt it.

The Army are readily available, trained in weapon handling and are otherwise relatively unoccupied, unless actually doing the 'war-fighting' for which they exist, or training for it.

[Quillan]

Well Quillan has over 21 gendarmes located there in the new 'barracks'. Seven for days, seven for nights and seven 'spare'. All these for a population of just over a thousand. There is a much (new) bigger one at Limoux, a smaller one at Axat and of course a very big one at Carcassonne but being the Prefecture and a large town with both an Artillery barracks and the Parachute Regiment based there I guess they need them. What I am saying is there are an awful lot of them just around my area and I am sure they could be used more effectively. I have no idea if this is normal compared to other regions of France. I forgot to mention we also have three local police officers.

[Pickles]

There may be another thing going on as well as "being seen to be doing something": if you have dispersed units on the streets, the reaction time to any event is potentially significantly improved.

[Quillan]

I just think it is a massive step and a little too soon. All of us that live here permanently want to feel secure, just as the natives, and in that respect I am no different to everyone else but in truth I don't actually feel insecure. When I visit Toulouse, having got my car stuck on the entrance ramp to a carpark years ago (very embarrassing), I prefer to park out of town and catch the train in. I drive round to Mirail, to the terminus there and park in the Geant carpark. This area has a large immigrant population yet is close to the University. On Wednesday we visited and I was debating to drive into the city centre and reduce any risk but then thought 'sod it why change'. I thought I might feel different when in the area of Mirail but actually I didn't and then realised that the barstewards had got to me with their paranoia as well and that life was indeed just as normal as before with no noticeable increase in police or any army present unless hid round the corner somewhere. Then I thought that if I had changed then the murders would have won.

Putting troops on the street is change and in doing so is a very visible signal. For me I prefer to stick my finger up at the murderers and carry on as normal but troops on the street shows things aren't normal. To my mind this gives the murderers credence and those that control them the false belief they are winning. Skipping through the TV channels today I say the news on RT News. Wouldn't normally bother with this Putin propaganda channel except the bit I caught was about how there was mass pandemonium in France about the Muslims and that the troops are there to stop a civil war with the Christian and Jews going on a rampage killing Muslims. What an absolute piece of shite, reminded me why I stay away from the channel and what a richardhead Putin really is.

[Pickles]

[quote user="Quillan"]RT News. Wouldn't normally bother with this Putin propaganda channel except the bit I caught was about how there was mass pandemonium in France about the Muslims and that the troops are there to stop a civil war with the Christian and Jews going on a rampage killing Muslims. What an absolute piece of shite, reminded me why I stay away from the channel and what a richardhead Putin really is.[/quote]

Now you know where Fox News' "expert" got his info from!

[powerdesal]

Q said '' For me I prefer to stick my finger up at the murderers and carry on as normal ''

To a very large extent I agree with the ''Keep calm and carry on'' approach.

Whilst armed troops on the streets won't help the next victim(s) because they can, realistically, only be re-active, not pro-active the political side of being 'seen to be doing something' is a driver in this situation. If such troops make people feel more safe, even if they are not actually any more safe then it may well have a calming effect on the population.

As has been said above, there is the point of a faster reaction time which, whilst not helping the next victims ( and there WILL be more victims) may well reduce the total numbers of such victims.

[lindal1000]

It always seemed to be the policy in UK to adopt the high profile policing approach immediately after any event. Suddenly there would be police everywhere for a couple of weeks..all in high visibility vests..and I'm sure that was not so they became an easy target!

Increased security doesn't seem to have reached as far South as Bordeaux. Having spent the best part of last week there the only thing I noticed was a sign on the trams asking people to report unattended bags.

[Quillan]

My guests inform me that there were six controls between Carcassonne and Quillan yesterday. All were Gendarmes but they did have Landrovers with tripod mounted machine guns on the bonnets, not much use if you need to chase anyone.

[YCCMB]

As is usual in these situations, it seems the security forces can't do right for doing wrong. If no visible measures were seen by the public to be in place, I can well imagine the backlash should the worst happen. "Why weren't the police and the army out in force?" "They should have had more troops on the streets" and so on.

This resembles all the complaining after the marked increase (and resultant queues) at airports after the "shoe bomber" and 9/11 etc. Damned if they do....