What is your explanation?

[Chancer]

I was encouraged to solicit views after reading the 55/100 thread.

It concerns the total inability of some (in my region most) French people to understand the language spoken with a foreign accent, specifically it concerns those in their first encounter with an etranger (n'importe quelle), this is most people that I come into contact with unless I visit Amiens, Arras or Lille or come across people (usually well educated) who have either travelled or moved to the area for work.

I want to make sure you realise that this is not a pop at the paysans or rustauds in my area, it is a real problem that I encounter daily, however once they tune in mentally to the fact that I sound and speak a little different it is never a problem thereafter. Interestingly children never seem to have this problem with me.

I also notice it on the television, often whenever an immigrant or someone from oûtre mer is speaking or interviewed sub-titles are used, some of these people have been speaking French for 50 years or so albeit with trace of a foreign accent and I can understand them perfectly, I would say that there is absolutely no need for the sub-titles but clearly I am in a minority.

I speak French very well now, being a natural mimic I even have a very noticable Picard accent but of course I cannot hide my English one although I was asked by an arab trader at the Sunday market if I was Portuguese [:)]

I do speak in a different manner given my still limited vocabulary and often make errors of gender, it is these that seem to cause the biggest difficulties but in most cases there is not both a masculin and feminin of the noun so I dont really understand why.

The most recent example was when I hired a fourgon from Intermarché, no problems at first and we chatted at length about various things including the tourists that will soon be arriving on the new air route and my suggestion that they should consider renting small hatchbacks, she told me that she had dealt with some English customers at the customer services desk but I was the first that could speak French.

I digress, I just wanted to make it clear that we had no communication problems until later when she was ticking off the checklist and  I stopped her and said that I wanted to actually see the spare wheel that she had just ticked as being OK,.

I now know that I used the wrong gender and asked to verify "le(sic) roue de secours" and was met with a "Quoi?" I repeated the phrase several times emphasising the pronunciation and probably did try the feminin form (I usually do) after several more "quoi?'s" and "comment?'s) I explained that it was "le truc que j'utiliserais si je tombais en panne avec une crevaison" (the thing that I would use if I broke down with  a puncture) she told me that I have no idea what you are talking about.

Eventually I found the spare wheel and pointed it out to her and got the universal look of comprehension, I tried asking her whether I had mispronounced it or used the wrong gender but she could not answer, I repeated the phrase one more time and she said that it was clear and understandable.

So to me its a mystery, it happens nearly every time in the circumstances that I explained above and never causes further problems, what is your view or experiences?

[NormanH]

Like you I speak reasonable French.

I have a part-time job where I have to direct a group of over 50 French people, who over a period of time understand me perfectly.

However, if I am in  restaurant alone they understand me straight away BUT if I am with the family over from the UK, or with a group of anglophones and so naturally speaking 'International' English  they seem not to understand the same phrases and pronunciation because in their head they have already decided that I don't speak French.

It has even happened that I have spoken French, and they commented that my English was easier to understand than most!

I admit that I have an accent, but it never troubles anybody when I pay for something...

[Chancer]

[quote user="NormanH"]Like you I speak reasonable French.
 they seem not to understand the same phrases and pronunciation because in their head they have already decided that I don't speak French.
[/quote]

One of my theories is close to that!

They have already decided that I must be a cretin [:D]

That was certainly the case with my first factrice walked away whilst I was in mid sentence uttering "espece de cretin!"

[chessfou]

Absolutely normal and can happen to anyone anywhere. It largely seems to be down to what is in the head of the "interlocuteur" (receiver).

Many years ago, I noticed that English people could not readily understand telephone numbers stated two figures at a time, even if done by a native speaker, while for the French, chunks of three were almost guaranteed to produce incomprehension. That has changed somewhat but remains true for many.

I can think of examples (in both directions) for all the members of my family, so it's not solely a problem for those who have not travelled much or who don't have much of an education.

Some years ago, I spent a few weeks working in India, where I was assisted by my elder son. I had no trouble understanding the local populace (when speaking English) , nor them me but there was mutual incomprehension between them and my son (15 or 16 at the time).

My wife can't understand a word spoken by Jamie Carragher (Liverpool footballer with strong Scouse accent).

I know that I have particular difficulty with "African" (and "Chinese") French, especially on the radio. On TV or in the flesh, one can get additional clues from body language and also the shape of the mouth and movement of the lips. Under such circumstances I know that I end up staring at the other person's mouth, desperately hunting for decoding clues. I have witnessed the same fixed stare on other people's faces when I am speaking a "foreign" language (and yes, once or twice, the view of the other person's back while I'm in mid-sentence).

As for the sub-titles, I vaguely remember an interview (many years ago on TV) between a journalist speaking "proper" BBC English and a Northumbrian farmer; the Beeb put that out with sub-titles (IMHO they were essential).

[NormanH]

Another thing that I have noticed is that French people who speak English quite well find it easier to understand a non-native speaker than a typical English accent, in a film for example

At first I thought it  was because they had become used to the pronunciation of their teachers in School who often have a strong French accent in English, but later I found out that they also find it easier to understand German people speaking English.

A similar thing happened with my son's girlfriend, who at the time was a Serbian girl, educated at the French Lycée in Belgrade and more or less bilingual in French and Serbo-Croat. She was studying English at University, and frankly had only the slightest hint of an accent. When I spoke to her alone or my son spoke to her she she had no problems, but when I was chatting to him with her present she had great difficulty following the conversation. I add that we both speak pretty 'standard' English with no regional accent.

I can only conclude that there is a difference between the way two native speakers interact in the language they use, and the way in which non-native speakers use the same language.

In addition I think that the pairing of French and English is particularly difficult from the pronunciation point of view.

There are so many words with roots in the other language but with a slight difference of pronunciation:

'muscle', 'rugby', 'transparent' 'sandwich' etc the similarity means that there is 'interference' between the memory of the pronunciation in your native language, and the way it is pronounced in the foreign one.

Most of the fluent English speakers amongst my French friends have retained a slight accent, and I haven't met an English person who can pass 100% as a French person either, although there must be exceptions.

I know Dutch and Swedish people however who have not only perfect English accents, but even regional ones!

 

[Chancer]

Some valid points Chessfou.

Teenagers comprehension (in both directions) is a subject on its own, I have met a few French "Kevins" who are unintelligible and seem incapable of understanding the simplest statements even/especially from their parents, and lots of English "Kevins" also.

Having some industrial hearing  loss at cerain frequencies I lip read even in English, the most difficult for me are quietly spoken or mumbling people especially when their is background noise,

I met some French friends in a bar on Saturday, our original, quieter meeting place of an Estaminet having a "fermeture exceptionelle), there was background noise, two of the girls were very quietly spoken, one of the guys clear speaking and audible and the other one a marmotter, so at best against the background noise I could only hear one person even when I tried chenging positions.

So as not to become totally bored I studied the lip and facial movements, expressions etc of the two guys, the marmotter did not move his jaw at all, mumbled through pursed lips and made no gestes at all. It's a shame as I have known this guy for 3 years, quite like him and get on well with him but can barely understand what he says.

[Sunday Driver]

Like JR, I found the ability to mimic a style of speaking has been helpful.  So, I speak German in a Teutonic monotone and when I'm speaking Dutch, it's helpful to imagine you're just about to spit.....

When I first came to France, my French girlfriend said I spoke French with an Italian accent.  After a while, I found myself adopting more 'French' sounds which she said made me more understandable.  That said, a friend of mine just wades in with his fractured 'Dagenham' French and seems to get by......[;-)]

 

 

[chessfou]

Yes, I have trouble with those who "whisper", especially young kids (who I often find hard to understand anyway) who are short on confidence.

Of course, it helps if you (and hopefully your interlocuteur) stay "on the ball" and make an effort to comprehend. Then Paws-mousse is a doddle, although I did have to think twice over France 3's news today about the Cléménceau in Art-elle-poule! Art-le-poule aurait été plus compréhensible mais "poule" est un nom féminin! (Don't ask me why not Art-la-poule - my brain hurts already).

[Chancer]

I always try hard not to make compaarisons with life in the UK but I am sure that most people recognise the quirks of how other nationalities speak English and are able to understand them, even to the extent of being able to mimic their particular style of speech.

However I guess if you have never actually met a foreigner maybe not so.

So I would like to ask Claire, Frenchie, Odile and any other native French speakers that have lived in the UK, did you experience this same problem?

[Chrissie]

I remember a letter in one of the UK papers a few years back.  The letter-writer and his wife were travelling in the US and were asked by a cab driver if they were English.  When they replied in the affirmative, the cab driver said "I thought so - because you speak just like your Prince Charles."   They were a bit dumbfounded as they admitted they both spoke with a very strong Dudley accent!   So maybe it's all in the perception of the hearer.

Chrissie (81)

[Chrissie]

I remember a letter in one of the UK papers a few years back.  The letter-writer and his wife were travelling in the US and were asked by a cab driver if they were English.  When they replied in the affirmative, the cab driver said "I thought so - because you speak just like your Prince Charles."   They were a bit dumbfounded as they admitted they both spoke with a very strong Dudley accent!   So maybe it's all in the perception of the hearer.

Chrissie (81)

[Boiling a frog]

Thank god it's not just me then.

On Saturday went into Quick burger  for a snack. Decided to ask for ""A Triple cheese"" . This was what was up on the board as their special ,wife wanted ""A long chicken""

Was met with total puzzlement  I tried again this time pronouncing  Triple cheese and Long chicken  with a kind of Hello Hello accent.

Suddenly another assistant appeared, announced she could speak English what do you want. Triple cheese et une  Long Chicken. SVP .

What do you want ?  I almost said ""Do you not understand French"" but I did not . I eventually got my Triple cheese and Long chicken but it was an uphill struggle.

On another occasion my wife asked in Mr Bricolage where the toilet was in French .The checkout girl replied that she did not speak english .My wife repeated the question (in French) and got the same response. My wife then said to the shop assistant in French"" But I am speaking French not English ""

A smile broke out on the shop assistants face as it dawned that in fact she could understand what my wife was saying and directions were duly given.

    

 

 

[odile]

Generally speaking I have found that people in the UK are more prepared to make the effort to understand foreigners. I arrived in 1970 in Brentford/London - having only my Bac + 6 months tri-lingual secretarial course - and little spoken English. First day I went to a corner shop and asked for 'cloth hangers' - it took them a while, a pen and paper and a drawing - but I did get my clothes hangers in the end. And every day I struggled and made mistakes - my th were either f or v- but I pracised and practised. The main thing- I just didn't care, took any mick taking with a laugh, and just got on with it. Wrote everything down, expressions, new words, slang -etc. But I can't remember ever a time when people didn't, in the end, understand me in a friendly manner. When I visited Cambridge, Oxford and parts of central London - peoples' attitudes changed - and suddenly either replied in French or looked at me blankly. So I feel in touristy areas,  and those areas where there are many foreigners, who perhaps give rise to a bit of jealousy, or seen as not as integrated as they could (SOME) or make property prices rise, etc- people may not be quite so prepared to make the effort.

Perhaps personality and attitude also plays a role. I have a very bubbly, open manner- and my eagerness to learn all is written all over my face. My OH is the most wonderful man, excellent education, qualifications, etc. with a totally flat (Surrey boy) English accent - and he does have difficulties making himself understood. His French is now excellent, good vocab- has a lovely English accent that my friends love - but he is reserved and does not project his speech as he is used to work on a one to one basis (I taught languages for 30 years so had to learn to do that). When we lived in Staffordhire, he could not understand the locals sometimes - and had to ask me to deal with craftsmen, delivery people and the like.

Just a personal experience, form the 'top of the head'.

[Cerise]

Definitely a perception thing.  I speak pretty good French, not completely accentless but nevertheless good enough and even French people assume that I am Belgian/Canadian/Swiss or something else that speaks French but not from France.  When I am out in French company no-one ever has any trouble understanding me and at the council meetings (I am conseillère) I can keep up and shout up with the best of them.  However, if I am out with English family/friends I notice that people, waiters for example, assume that they won't be able to understand me before I even open my mouth.  I never have any trouble on the telephone so it must simply be a question of someone looking at me, deciding that I'm English and they won't be able to understand.  I also think there is the occasional person who does it on purpose because they simply want to show us up.

[powerdesal]

I have a French boss who speaks perfect, accentless, English, complete with all the subtle nuances. However, he discovered that the Indians and Philipinos didn't seem to understand him. He then reverted to speaking English with a French accent and was immediately fully understood.

He has commented that I am the first English person on site that he can really understand, I suspect it is because, having years of experience in speaking to non-English first language staff, I have slowed down my speech considerably, without noticing. He has particular problems with Mancunians who he cannot understand at all.

[cooperlola]

Maybe the lack of comprehension is feigned, but maybe it isn't.  I reckon I speak with a reasonable French accent - even though I'm not a totally fluent speaker - due to the fact that I was very young when I learnt the language; and I've been mistaken for French a few times by people I've met here.

The very kind orderly who helps me into the swimming pool every morning is extremely friendly and we chat away quite happily and she seems to have no difficulty understanding me.  However, the other day I was explaining to her that I had been to dinner at the Buffalo Grill.  Because I pronounced this in an - I believed quite reasonably - English accent, she hadn't a clue what I was trying to say.  Then I said Buffalo Grill in a French accent and she understood straight away. 

I have her problem in reverse. When French people are chatting to me and English names or expressions come up in conversation, I often have trouble understanding them because they sound so different from the pronounciation I am used to.  Thus it's not really a surprise to me that some French people struggle to understand a strong English accent.  I think it's probably more true though, of those who haven't travelled so much and therefore haven't been so exposed to different accents.

[baypond]

I find I have to be careful how well I pronounce 'Je parle un peu le Francais' If I say it with the correct accent and intonation with a bit of emphasis on the 'peu' and let 'le Francais' roll off the tounge, then I get a barrage of French back at me begining with ahhh no, you speak very well. So now I am a little more careful to say it with an English accent, so they don't make the wrong assumption.

Also I think it is sometimes self conciousness on the part of the French person trying to understand a sentence that then creates a block.

What I would like to know is why in Paris they seem to say au-voir, and drop the 're' and yet down in the SW they seem to be fairly specific in pronouncing the whole au revoir. I would have thought it would be the other wy round

[Chancer]

In my region the Picard twang corrupts au revoir into an art form, it is a sort of "aww-vwwwaaa!!! with the emphasis on the vwwwaahhh sounding like a baby getting its ar5e smacked, the really gutteral sounding guys make it sound like a cat vomiting a fur ball!

Cooperlola. I have the same problem getting caught out by people throwing in  English words or phrases mid sentence, the commonly used ones "parking" "lifting" "re-looking" etc are usually pronounced in the English way so dont cause a problem, I was at my cookery class recently and the chef who has spoken English when working on the ivory coast likes to throw in the odd word for my benefit, or perhaps to catch me out which he does every time.

My ears are attuned to French and when I hear something I dont recognise if the vowel sounds are French I dont think to engage my English dictionary. Last time we were to make a mango compôte to go with fois gras, he said "on va preparer le choot-né" I asked him to repeat it several times and was convinced he was saying "chute né" now a chute d'eau or a chute d'argent I knew but chute né? Perhaps something that falls from the nose, perhaps while sneezing?

I asked if he meant "crotte de né" and everyone fell about laughing, it was then I realised that all the other native French speakers also had no idea what he was saying. It was chutney!!

I think for him it is an affectation like Del Boy Trotter, certainly everyone else gets fed up when neither they or I can follow him.

Hnads up all those that have had problems asking for "white spirit" in the bricolages? For those that may not know it has the same name in and spelling in French but must be pronounced "WEEEET SPEEEREEEET"

[Frenchie]

Well, when I first arrived in London, aged 20, I was soon depressed because I couldn't understand TV, and a conversation between more than 2 people, and when I tried to ask for something in a shop, I usually had big wide eyes in reaction... [blink]

I thought I would never make it, but after 3 months it got better, six months even better,after a year people asked me if I was Italian  ( NEVER understood why ??) I thought maybe this had to do with my dark hair /green eyeys.??

In France I think many people have a " blocage" when they hear a foreign accent , it s a sort of " panic reaction" so they don't really listen to what you are saying...

And I agree with JR, who wondered why there were subtitles when someone from the DOM TOM speaks on TV . I even find that insulting to them, because it IS understandable.

I don't know what my accent is like in English now, I am ashamed of it, can't help it..

I'd really like someone to tell me honestly what it is like.

When people tell me it is OK, I think they 're just being too nice. [:$]

[Maricopa]

[quote user="Frenchie"]

I'd really like someone to tell me honestly what it is like.

When people tell me it is OK, I think they 're just being too nice. [:$]

[/quote]

This is what I always wonder when I am told I speak french well[8-)]

[Phillip1969]

This is an interesting phenomenon that I think affects a lot of people when talking to speakers of other languages.

People do not expect to understand, particularly if they don't speak a second language themselves and particularly if they are not well travelled.

This is all the truer when one uses sophisticated or idiomatic peech. If a native had said it, in exactly the same way, it would be understood but if, in this case, a non-French person says the same thing, it is assumed to be unintelligible.

What I have found to help is to say everything with great confidence, both in the tone and with one's body language. Look at them as though they should understand and that, if they don't, there must be something wrong with them. I've found that it reduces the problem by about 80%.

[Phillip1969]

Of course, I should mention that I haven't tried this with anyone French yet. I can, however, speak a fair level of German and have tried the same thing over there. Should be transferable, non?