Rugby World Cup 3rd XV

[UlsterRugby1999]

Quillan there is logic in what you say, but I would argue that you miss a few issues which have some bearing.

Firstly, Percy Montgomery is playing behind a very confident, very mobile and productive pack and has had this luxury for the entire pool stages right through. Wilkinson has had to endure an evolving English pack which was running about with its head in dark places for the two pre tournament French matches and the earlier pool matches. Corry, Reagan and friends took an eternity to knit together and stuff some passion and pride up their jerseys. Once this happened the English pack started to work as a single unit. Then Wilkinson got better ball with time and was able to maximise both his deadball and from hand kicking. 8 points not scored you say, yet if it hadnt been for him you wouldnt be where you are today. Even Montgomery has recorded several misses during vital games. Every kicker does. (Unless you are ROBOT O'Gara in which case you miss most of them)

Secondly, Wilkinson is tactically a different player than Percy. He has to be. He has 5 individuals behind him who are here there and every flippin where whereas Montgomery literally knows where his backs are at any moment and can distribute passes or kicks to them. Wilkinson hasnt got this luxury.

As for [quote]a few tackles[/quote] as you said, I must disagree here also. Wilkinson, despite shoulder and knee problems, tackled hard and well on Saturday evening and he rose in my estimation even more. If I could find an angle to make him Irish I'd have him in the green jersey tomorrow over ROBOT, any day.

Ultimately, he controls the game very well, he distributes with sharp precision and he creates play better than the available Out Halfs that you have.

Worth every penny he gets - IMHO.

[Mr Coeur de Lion]

[quote user="Benjamin"]Bob W. wrote

There is also the myth/reality that key players generate (eg Jonah

Lomo) that influences the way the opposition prepare for a match, the

players they select and the tactics they chose.

Brings to mind the Thierry Henry situation when everyone said Arsenal were mad to sell him. Look at the Premiership Table now.

[/quote]

Arsenal played that one to perfection. He's still a class striker, but his best years are behind him. Great price for a 29 yo.

[Gardian]

[quote user="UlsterRugby1999"]

Gardian for what its worth, and based on current form only, I'd select the following

Du Randt - Smit/Reagan - Sheridan - Pelous - Thion - Betson - McCaw - Bonnaire

Elissalde/Gomarsall - Hernandez

Habana - Contepomi - O'Driscoll - Sackey - Montgomery/Corleto

[/quote]

UR99 ...............

Pelous??????? - good player, but past his best and 'out of it' in this competition

and worse still (on current form) O'Driscoll - just a touch of the old green-tinted glasses, maybe? 

Funny though isn't it?  No Aussies and just a couple of AB's between us.  We'd never have said that before the start, would we? 

[UlsterRugby1999]

Hi Gardian - not sure I agree with you on the Pelous side of things. A lot of his work is unseen and he is a true grinder (old style). As for O'Driscoll, still one of the best centres in the game but hamstrung by SLINGER and ROBOT who couldnt give him decent ball on time for his runs. Just take a look at the photo of him screeming at Peter SLINGER. His form is clouded by the dumbnuts around him. Green tinted glasses are still full of the auld black stuff from the weekend. God Bless Arthur Guinness.

The Wallabies and All Blacks are as low as I have ever seen them but McCaw couldnt be left out of any team. They'll be back though and sooner than we might think. That said, the Aussies are in complete free fall and it looks like a mighty hill to climb.

To be honest, I think that the Pumas have stolen the show (and rightly so). I havent been as excited about a world cup since 1991 when Campo played twice in Dublin and I had tickets for both games.

[raindog]

I'd agree with ulster and say that O Driscoll is still one of the best centres in the world. His only fault, in my mind, is that he can be a bit greedy with the ball - as if he wants all the glory for himself.

As for Wilko being past his sell by date, you only need to look at comments from the other nations - managers and players alike, to see that he's still considered a force to be reckoned with. Anyway, who do we replace him with? And he hard-tackles players twice his weight, which is why he's suffered so badly injury wise.

Looking back over sunday's game, I think the score flattered SA. Not one of their tries was a team creation. They all came from monumental Argentinian c**k-ups. In fact it's a long time since i've seen a team make so many mistakes and handling errors - the guys must've been really tired. Shame, because for a WC semi final that was a big score margin.

Roll on saturday!

[Pierre ZFP]

I have a meeting this afternnoon with a number of French colleagues.

I have arranged the meeting for a time of  14:09

I thought it was something they might remember easily .....

......I'm a BAAAAD boy [6]

[UlsterRugby1999]

raindog wrote:

[quote]His only fault, in my mind, is that he can be a bit greedy with the ball - as if he wants all the glory for himself.
[/quote]

I cant disagree with a word of that. I think, though, that if O'Sullivan had given the captaincy to one of the forwards and left BOD to get on with his normal game this may not have happened. He used to gel brilliantly with Darcy and they were a serious force. Aye they were the days they were [:(][:'(]

I'd also agree about the Pumas. I think they were mentally fatigued as well as physically worn out - but still - what a World Cup they had and what a World Cup they gave us. Breath of fresh air.

[raindog]

Yes, they were, and the sooner they can be included in a major tournement the better. In fact the whole system needs to be looked at pretty quick if world rugby isn't to slide downhill.

[tegwini]

Raindog

The Springboks have not in recent history been beaten once by the Pumas, so the Pumas were at a massive disadvantage to start with. The Boks may have made some mistakes, but the Pumas had no real defence - eg the 80 yard  clear run by Habana. The Puma's only try was questionable  I don't agree that there was no teamwork in the SA tries - in fact there was a lot of running rugby. The Pumas got so frustrated that one resorted to pulling Skinstad's  hair in the last moments of the game.

England vs SA ,  well since 2003 they have won very few major games, and have really gone backwards. And the results against SA over the last 4 games have been dismal with high scores to the Boks.

The word 'arrogant' was used to describe the Springboks, who are in fact quite modest and hardly boastful about their chances this Saturday, unlike many English supporters who seem to accept one-sided media reports written by chauvanistic UK reporters.

Sadly, British - or rather, English is not always best.

[Gardian]

Thing is gents, this debate is about current form as demonstrated in the RWC.  Before the competition, O'D would have been in my 1st XV.  On the same pretext, Dan Carter would have been most people's '10'.  And so on - Ibanez, Gregan, Jack, etc.

However, how have they performed over the last month or so? (accepting that often they've only been able to be as good as the team around them).

Pumas for a regular major tournament?  It's a no-brainer and simply a matter of time before the IRB fixes it.  The problem surely is that most of their players work in the NH and the obvious competition for them is in the SH.

Just thought I'd mention one other thing before I forget it - I really want us to win on Sat for all sorts of reasons, but one of them is to see the look on the face of the SA Manager in his ghastly green and gold blazer.  There are other things I could say about what I would like to see happen to that blazer, but they would be tasteless and unworthy of (even) me.

 

[raindog]

[quote user="tegwini"]

Raindog

The Springboks have not in recent history been beaten once by the Pumas, so the Pumas were at a massive disadvantage to start with. The Boks may have made some mistakes, but the Pumas had no real defence - eg the 80 yard  clear run by Habana. The Puma's only try was questionable  I don't agree that there was no teamwork in the SA tries - in fact there was a lot of running rugby. The Pumas got so frustrated that one resorted to pulling Skinstad's  hair in the last moments of the game.

England vs SA ,  well since 2003 they have won very few major games, and have really gone backwards. And the results against SA over the last 4 games have been dismal with high scores to the Boks.

The word 'arrogant' was used to describe the Springboks, who are in fact quite modest and hardly boastful about their chances this Saturday, unlike many English supporters who seem to accept one-sided media reports written by chauvanistic UK reporters.

Sadly, British - or rather, English is not always best.

[/quote]

How can you have a "defence" against an interception try with an empty pitch to run by the "fastest wing in the world"?

Can you point out my post where I said the boks are arrogant?

Where are these "English supporters who seem to accept one-sided media reports written by chauvanistic UK reporters". How many do you know? Is it refering to me? If not, why include it in a response to me.

"Sadly, British - or rather, English is not always best." what does this refer to?

Are you being patronising?

Everyone knows, on paper and from recent form, England will get hammered, but our critics have said that from the Samoa game onwards and we're still here against all the odds. Alot of jealousy knocking around here methinks.

England are the underdogs - so much the better. Can't wait for saturday.

[UlsterRugby1999]

Morning Gardian - you said

[quote]However, how have they performed over the last month or so? (accepting that often they've only been able to be as good as the team around them).[/quote]

With regard to O'Driscoll - thats exactly my point. This also makes the performances of the likes of the Puma's that much more special in that they worked together as a single unit full of self belief and brimming full of confidence. IMHO, the Tri-Nations is dead in the water and its only a matter of time. As an Irishman (disgruntled of course [:(]) it will always cause my indigestion to cheer on England but if they win (and they have every possibility of doing so) it would be the nail in the coffin for the Tri big boys - and no bad thing I believe too.

Raindog - as an aside, I dont think the comments from tegwini

[quote]The word 'arrogant' was used to describe the Springboks, who are in fact quite modest and hardly boastful about their chances this Saturday, unlike many English supporters who seem to accept one-sided media reports written by chauvanistic UK reporters.[/quote]

were being directed at you but a general view based on some earlier comments by other posters. Thats my read on it anyway.

 

Oh and Gardian I think that jacket is class, I'd love one for St Patricks Day [;-)][;-)] maybe Ashton and the lads would save it for me [:D]

[tegwini]

Raindog

The word 'arrogant' & worse, was used to describe the Boks - on this site.  You only have to trawl around the media, including the www. to note that many are convinced England will win.   SA rugby www sites are far more balanced.

No, I am not being patronising- the British have long believed that 'British is best', fed by the media & government,  just stating a fact, but we know that's not true, otherwise why do people leave the country & live elsewhere?   In any case,  I don't think 'patronising' is the correct word to use - cynical maybe?   disillusioned?   or perhaps realistic.

Having lived on more than one continent I am no longer nationalistic, and enjoy the rugby as most do because it's a game which is to be enjoyed.  Just remembering the joy on Habana's face after that long & successful run is enough for me.

[dreamer]

Here, here Tegwini!  Lets not forget what a fantastic rugby world cup this has been and I'm sure Sat will produce an equally great final.  I am from S.A and hubby from U.K - may the best team win![:D]

[raindog]

[quote user="tegwini"]

Raindog

The word 'arrogant' & worse, was used to describe the Boks - on this site.  You only have to trawl around the media, including the www. to note that many are convinced England will win.   SA rugby www sites are far more balanced.

[/quote]

But what has this got to do with me and my post?

I too loved the grin on Habana's face when he crossed the line, but that dosen't change the fact that both his tries came from interceptions because of awfull Argentine play.

[tegwini]

Gardian

   Not sure why a green & gold blazer is 'ghastly' & what's wrong with the Springbok coach?   He's clearly doing his job well.  and, who knows he might end up coaching the English team- SA coaches have made big improvements in various sports in the UK!

Dreamer

- thanks for your kind words (opposite marital/national mix) where are you based ? pse pm me.

And, I agree with you - let the best team win    but above all enjoy the game.

,

[Gardian]

[quote user="tegwini"]

Gardian

   Not sure why a green & gold blazer is 'ghastly' & what's wrong with the Springbok coach?   He's clearly doing his job well.  and, who knows he might end up coaching the English team- SA coaches have made big improvements in various sports in the UK!

[/quote]

Let's not confuse how well he's doing his job with the ghastliness of his blazer.

In the former case, alright-ish because of where the Springboks are - and may the better team win and all that. 

In the latter case, a less-than-desirable sight.  A statement though, to be fair. 

[raindog]

I think it's a bit of a shame Hipkiss isn't being played - he did well against France, and Cueto has been off form IMO. Still, Ashton knows his men better than us armchair critics!

SA would be deserving champions,

they've been the class of the tournement I reckon. Still let's hope for

a good strong display from both sides.

I'll be watching the final on saturday evening in the bar of the Marseille-Bastia ferry, so I just wanted to wish all the rugby posters here a good match.

See you next week guys.

[Gardian]

[quote user="raindog"]I'll be watching the final on saturday evening in the bar of the Marseille-Bastia ferry
[/quote]

Well, 'bon voyage' Raindog' and hope that it turns out to be just that!  You mentioning the bar, has reminded me to replenish my brandy stock tomorrow morning - I shifted the tail end of my last bottle in the final 10 mins last Sat night!  Might need some more tomorrow (either way).

Pleased for Argentina tonight.  No fluke, nothing lucky, the French were trying but just not good enough. Good game and one of the better 'Petit Finals'. 

No forecast for tomorrow, except to hope that it's hard-fought, no nasty injuries, no cheap shots from either side and may the better ........ etc, etc.

[UlsterRugby1999]

IMHO we saw the best match of the tournament last night. It had the lot. Passion, aggression, tries, grind out, breaks, amazing passing distances, running, tackling heck - it just had the lot. But for me it had one more thing. It had the birth of a whole new rugby. This must now make the IRB waken up to the fact that there is more than 5 or 6 rugby nations to be considered.

Bring it on and let them in.

As for tonight, maybe it wont be as superb a game to watch as last night but it'll be a hard fought game up front where the Out Halves need to be quick and in total control. Whoever gets this right will win. Either way, I'll be having a lazy start tomorrow morning [:D][B][:D][B]

[Bluebells]

Agree with all on hoping for a good game and best team win (England), Argentina last night quite amazing at times, France, well they must be wondering how they beat the All Blacks, who I suspect, will be unable to speak after last night!

So dim the lights , out with the ale, unplug the phone, on with the shirt once more ( must wash it soon ) oh and get the ear defenders out for the wife as I will be issuing instructions to the team as always, cheers.

[Gardian]

Just been sent this by a cheeky *** of a Welsh pal (together with his best wishes for tonight). It made me chuckle - just hope it's highly wide of the mark !!

The Springboks were playing England in the RWC final, at half-time the Springboks were 56-0 ahead, Brian Habana scoring eight tries.

The rest of the team decided to head for the pub instead of going out for the second half, leaving Habana to face England on his own.

"No worries," Habana told them, "I'll join you later and tell you what happened."

After the game Habana headed for the pub and told his team-mates the final score: 95-3.

"What!!!!" said a furious John Smit, "How did you let them get three points??!"

Habana replied apologetically, "I was sent off with 20 minutes to go."

[UlsterRugby1999]

Gardian here's one for you to send back - I got it from an English friend of mine (imagine that [:D])

Knorr have produced a new stock cube to celebrate the Welsh performances during RWC 2007. They have called it .................

 

The Laughing Stock [:D][:D]

[UlsterRugby1999]

Mind you - I'm reminded of the saying about people in glass houses - [:$][:$]

[Quillan]

England lost, Ireland won. That has to be some of the worst referring I have ever seen.

OK the Springboks won but only, in reality, by two points. Strange how the ref was keen to give the Springboks a penalty  for crossing but when it happened twice to England, nothing. Then there is the issue of two obstructions. I don't mind loosing, well OK I do, but I don't like it when we are robbed of points when we clearly got them (I refer to the try), the camera as they say, never lies. How much difference a try would have made to England's performance we can only speculate. Strange enough I have two couples from Dublin for a arriving tomorrow  for a week's stay, it will be difficult keeping a still tongue with regards to Irish referring. It was bad enough when he referred the Australian match but this was just unbelievable.

England played very well and have nothing to be ashamed of, well done England, at least you got a try which is more than the Springboks could ever do.