CMU de base to be completely disbanded and discontinued for everyone from 31/3/08 - rumour or fact?

[sunshine 2]

We went into Sarlat CMU today to talk about the letter received on Saturday asking for more doc's. (I had posted elsewhere yesterday that the English speaking helpline told me that this letter was a computer mistake - but we wanted to be sure).  The CMU assistant confirmed that Saturday's letter was a mistake and should be binned.

We went on to talk about our cover and attestation for 2008 etc and she was very very clear that it has now been decided that CMU de base will not exist for ANYONE from 31/3/08 - the whole system will be disbanded - for French, English or any Nationality - the option to make paying contributions will not exist for anyone!!  She inferred (but I did not double check) that CMU complementaire will continue to exist (presumably they could not deny an avenue of free cover for the very poorest).

She seemed surprised that we had not yet received a letter telling us about the discontinuation fo CMU de base  - she phone Perigueux office as we showed her an attestation for 100% cover (for serious illness) which indicated cover for that illness until Sept 08.  She was clearly given short shrift on the phone and again repeated that Perigueux confirmed that there will be no CMU de base to belong to for anyone of any Nationality and regardless of whether they have serious illness, beyond 31/3/08 and that the 100% cover will end automatically on that date.

If true - then this would be a major deviation from what has been publically announced by the French so far.  It would put paid to many of our argumentsw about discrimination against Brits etc and, would mean that for anyone who has been here over 5 years and was hoping to re-gain entry to CMU that there would be no option to do so as the option is simply not available to anyone.

Further, she told us that anyone with an income earned in France (eg gites, chambre d'hote) is being told to go and register as independent workers at the offices of CAMONS, and pay health cotisations via them - or register with Chamber of commerce. 

Can anyone else verify this please - perhaps by visiting their own CMU and asking????? 

 

[Deimos]

I have no idea how many French people

are on the CMU-B but I would imagine quite a few. It would surprise

me if it was being completely closed down but I would not be

surprised if it was being closed to all "inactifs" (i.e.

including French inactifs). If it is, then I guess the issues of

chronic and existing conditions will become more important issues to

be addressed as they will now affect the French themselves.

Ian

[BJSLIV]

I think this is a case of a Fonctionnaire telling you half a story / making things up.

For this to be true there would have been a lot of Parliamentary time spent on the matter, and that isn't the case. Its not something that even M Sarkozy could do by simple administrative diktat.

Incidentally the new contribution rates for the coming year were published a couple of weeks ago...........

http://www.boursorama.com/patrimoine/information/detail-actualite.phtml?&news=4664579

 

[ams]

Just back from the local CPAM, same excuse, just an error, saw another 6 english couples waiting looking very stressed. lots of opportunities for health savings in my opinion. can one imagine the number of hours of staff time wasted in this exercise.

 

ams

[cooperlola]

Ian has a point.  The French press would surely have got hold of this, if it were to be applied to French nationals?  Anybody seen anything?  I'll have a trawl around.  Disturbing if true but it would make the "hearts and minds" approach easier, at least over here!

[Cat]

I don't think she has it right, as the French social security budget  for 2008 continues to speak of the CMU.  Could she have been referring to the new franchise system, where everyone (except for those benefiting from the CMU, or children or pregnant women) has to pay up to 50 euros a year towards their prescriptions?

I've done a google news search on the french google site for "CMU de base" and found absolutely nothing about it.

[Clair]

I too have done a news search but nothing has come up to support this.

[Tony F Dordogne]

Interesting, I was also in the Sarlat office today and there was no indication at all of the 100%/E121 element being abandoned.  Thus far, it's the E121 element that seems to have been protected as far as it can be but if that is the case - and there are no leaflets or posters to any effect of the CMU B being closed from 31 March next year and by now, with less than 6 months to go, there surely would be in all health offices.

My GP here doesn't know anything about it that's for sure and I thought the practitioners would have been told by now.

My specialist at Bordeaux was telling me that he expected to see me next year on the same regime so I can't see the E121 people being abandoned.

[Sunday Driver]

E121 holders are affilliated under the regime generale rather than under CMU - that's why they're safe. That's also why E106 people have the upcoming problem when their regime generale affialliation ceases and they would normally transfer to CMU - which they can no longer do.

 

 

[sunshine 2]

Tony - there was definitely no sign of a threat to the E121's - I can't see why there would be - if they are affilliated to CMU de base then they could easily be switched to be affilliated to CMU complimentaire.  They 'pay their way' through payments from UK govt.  I have thought about it all afternoon, on and off, she was certainly of the belief herself that her instructions were that there would be no paying members of CMU after 31/3/08 and that CMU de base (for those that pay based on their income) was to be abolished altogether. 

I agree that there are no notices up anywhere in CMU offices about the impending changes (whatever they may turn out to be).

[Will]

1. People who are working and paying into the system (either employed or self-employed) - no change. This is fact.

2. People with E-forms (including UK state pensioners with E121) - no change.This is fact.

3. People who do not work and pay into the system and who are below state retirement age - probable change.

The area where there seems to be doubt is with those in category 3. Those with less than five years' residence may well have to take out private health assurance - at least until they built up five years' continuous residence in France. Those with five or more years spent contunuously in France should, under EU rules, be considered equal to any other French resident. So if a non-active French person in the same position as them can affiliate to the French health system, they should be able to do likewise, or else they can claim discrimination is taking place.

The other problem area is those in category 3 with existing conditions which may preclude them taking out health assurance - this would mean they cannot meet residence qualifications, so presumably could be forced to leave France. But how do such people manage in, for example Spain, which applies the same European rule and is home to many early retired? 

The current French government is committed to health and social security reform, and the President has spoken out against the idea of early retirement on several occasions. These are also facts.

I hope that is a reasonable, albeit blunt, summary of the facts and doubts..

[cooperlola]

Yup, Will. Nutshell springs to mind!

[Lehaut]

We are in the middle of building up evidence to contest our case with the autorities.  As part of this we have had a fruitful exchange of emails with someone within the CMU itself, at gouv.fr not local level. 

Have run the story past him, this is his reply:

"Soit vous avez mal compris, soit cette dame a dit une ânerie"

As we understand this translates as:

" Either you misunderstood or this lady is talking a load of nonsense"

Hopefully he knows!

 

Lehaut

 

 

 

[Sunday Driver]

It would be helpful if you could post the e-mails plus the response so we could understand what he is saying and why.

 

[cooperlola]

Yes, Lehaut, S/D is right - any chance?

[Maricopa]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]

It would be helpful if you could post the e-mails plus the response so we could understand what he is saying and why.[/quote]

I presume Lehaut is talking about this:-

[quote user="sunshine 2"]

We went on to talk about our cover and attestation for 2008 etc and she was very very clear that it has now been decided that CMU de base will not exist for ANYONE from 31/3/08 - the whole system will be disbanded - for French, English or any Nationality - the option to make paying contributions will not exist for anyone!!  She inferred (but I did not double check) that CMU complementaire will continue to exist (presumably they could not deny an avenue of free cover for the very poorest).[/quote]

[Lehaut]

[quote user="sunshine 2"]

We went into Sarlat CMU today to talk about the letter received on Saturday asking for more doc's. (I had posted elsewhere yesterday that the English speaking helpline told me that this letter was a computer mistake - but we wanted to be sure).  The CMU assistant confirmed that Saturday's letter was a mistake and should be binned.

We went on to talk about our cover and attestation for 2008 etc and she was very very clear that it has now been decided that CMU de base will not exist for ANYONE from 31/3/08 - the whole system will be disbanded - for French, English or any Nationality - the option to make paying contributions will not exist for anyone!!  She inferred (but I did not double check) that CMU complementaire will continue to exist (presumably they could not deny an avenue of free cover for the very poorest).

She seemed surprised that we had not yet received a letter telling us about the discontinuation fo CMU de base  - she phone Perigueux office as we showed her an attestation for 100% cover (for serious illness) which indicated cover for that illness until Sept 08.  She was clearly given short shrift on the phone and again repeated that Perigueux confirmed that there will be no CMU de base to belong to for anyone of any Nationality and regardless of whether they have serious illness, beyond 31/3/08 and that the 100% cover will end automatically on that date.

If true - then this would be a major deviation from what has been publically announced by the French so far.  It would put paid to many of our argumentsw about discrimination against Brits etc and, would mean that for anyone who has been here over 5 years and was hoping to re-gain entry to CMU that there would be no option to do so as the option is simply not available to anyone.

Further, she told us that anyone with an income earned in France (eg gites, chambre d'hote) is being told to go and register as independent workers at the offices of CAMONS, and pay health cotisations via them - or register with Chamber of commerce. 

Can anyone else verify this please - perhaps by visiting their own CMU and asking????? 

[/quote]

OK we try again,  the Email we were replying to under the heading of CMU de base etc is the one above.  Our comment is below

We are in the middle of building up evidence to contest our case with the autorities.  As part of this we have had a fruitful exchange of emails with someone within the CMU itself, at gouv.fr not local level. 

Have run the story past him, this is his reply:

"Soit vous avez mal compris, soit cette dame a dit une ânerie"

As we understand this translates as:

" Either you misunderstood or this lady is talking a load of nonsense"

Hopefully he knows!

 

Lehaut

[bigears]

hi

I have been reading all the threads with regard to the health question.  As 5 years continuous residency seems to be an important issue with regard to eu law, is it not possible to look at Spain (or other eu countries) to see what happens in similar circumstances there.  Sorry if there is no mileage in this.

[Lenht1951]

 think part of the problem is the vast amount of difference in cost of Spanish Private Health Insurance and the quotes that have been given to people living in France. 

From other threads / Forums 65 euros per month in Spain for a family to 300 + per month in France. And I believe that Spain to has an excellent Healthcare system.

[cooperlola]

The costs to the insurers of the various country's own health care systems, does affect things a lot.  The Spanish system is much cheaper and premiums are lower.  There is, I suppose, still some relief possible in that if the numbers of early-retirees needing insurance in France goes up, then premiums may come down - but never, I suspect to the Spanish level.

I've been hearing some interesting stuff about what is going on in Holland at present too, where "privatisation" is taking hold of the state stystem.  Even Dutch nationals are being told to take out private insurance, but it's a lot cheaper and there are plenty of safety nets available for those who can't pay or who are unable to get insurance for various reasons.  And it's a complete mess as a result!

http://www.expatica.com:80/actual/article.asp?subchannel_id=7&story_id=27459

[Deimos]

When I lived in the Netherlands (quite a long time

ago), their social security charges were very very very high.

However, their income tax level was a lot lower and the net result

was that you lost about the same percentage from you pay as in the

UK. Of course, when I moved back to the UK after more than a year

there the UK decided to tax me on everything I had earnt there

(offsetting what was a very low level of income tax paid there but

ignoring the very high social security charges).

Even back then I was also required to take out a

separate health insurance policy (cannot remember if it was a top-up

of separate but I was employed by a Dutch company, paying full

contributions, etc. They were very fussy about giving me a residents

permit. The police kept complaining that my contract said permanent

employment rather than having any time limit !!! - which meant they

kept stamping my passport with police stamps in Dutch which then

cause me loads of problems travelling to other countries as everybody

else say the "Police" bit but did not understand what the

rest was.

Ian